tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[chri5]

3 minutes ago, MaxZorin said:

I take it as the coolest way the writers could come up with to get themselves out of the situation they wrote themselves into, with no care for the implications or ramifications.

Also not unheard of when it comes to this show. 

I thought it was a case of including something that they didn't need to because they thought it would be cool.

 

It doesn't mean they know the other thing the Oath Rod can do for the spoilers.

[Katherine]

Finally watched the show and read through a lot of the comments. FWIW here are my thoughts. 

 

• At the end of all the previous shows I was able to pause and go "Ok, I see why they did this. I think we can still get a good story by the end." I was not able to say that today. 
• MANY HEADED DRAGON WHY AREN'T WE COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS MORE! 
• Loial should have opened the ways. Period. Can anyone with a penis do anything of consequence? 
• Matrim Bloody Cauthon.I hear what is being said about the fact that he quit. Ok fine. My main issue is that Moraine said that "the darkness in the knife fed off the darkness within". ....... What?
• Moraine and Suian. No problem with them being lovers.... but watching Moraine have sexy time is like watching Gandolf or Dumbledore or.... my parents have sex.
• We have seen the DR on screen a less than 10 minutes in two episodes, but we have time for sexy time? 
• I love the hall of the tower. Beautiful. 
• I need an oath rod. 
• Egwene puffing up while Suian said her comment about the strongest Aes Sedai in 1000 years literally made me laugh out loud. Best moment in the show IMO. 

 

Ultimately I hear and accept many of the reason why this show is the way it is. That being said.... I am committed to watching Season 2 Ep. 1. If things don't get drastically better and the DR is the DR.... I'll just wait for LOTR. 

 

[chri5]

5 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

But the second they changed the Dragon into a "boy or girl" thing, they showed what their priorities are. The lore is a second priority at best, and so appeals to lore are no longer a valid defense of any changes made. 

Then stop joining threads about the television shows and enjoy the audio books.  This seems really easy.

 

Sorry for engaging in this non-show discussion.

Edited December 12, 2021 by chri5
bleh

[Ralph]

To those who are saying Mat not going with was not in character, bc in the books he always pulls through in the end, I assumed he caught that Moiraine was using Aes Sedai speak and didn't believe her that not going into the Ways would mess everything up. 

 

That is even if it is not a cast change forced move, and besides the examples where Mat does let people down (Battle of Cairhien (he tries to at least), portal stone worlds) 

[Yojimbo]

6 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Nothing has been officially confirmed beyond that Mat has been recast for season two.

 

Then saying unequivocally that it is not the show runner's fault is as wrong as saying it unequivocally is his fault.  Just saying.

[chri5]

1 minute ago, Katherine said:

Finally watched the show and read through a lot of the comments. FWIW here are my thoughts. 

 

• MANY HEADED DRAGON WHY AREN'T WE COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS MORE! 

 

Hydras are a thing?

 

Was the Dragon a specific person? Yes.

 

Could the Dragon have defeated the DO without the help of the others?  No.  Remember the fireflies filling up the darkness.  The Dragon was not enough alone.  The Dragon needed the others too.

 

In a prophecy trying to describe this from the Old Tongue, it is taken by the translator to be a multi-headed Dragon.  It isn't the favored prophecy, but many translations do exist and they never knew exactly which was correct.

[Katherine]

Just now, chri5 said:

Hydras are a thing?

 

Was the Dragon a specific person? Yes.

 

Could the Dragon have defeated the DO without the help of the others?  No.  Remember the fireflies filling up the darkness.  The Dragon was not enough alone.  The Dragon needed the others too.

 

In a prophecy trying to describe this from the Old Tongue, it is taken by the translator to be a multi-headed Dragon.  It isn't the favored prophecy, but many translations do exist and they never knew exactly which was correct.

 

I have read the books multiple times. 

 

The sheer brilliance of this series is that it ends in an epic battle that showcases dozens of essential, well written, fully fleshed characters that worked together to defeat evil. 

 

Only one was the Dragon Reborn. 

 

That takes nothing away from  Thom, Moraine, Egwene, Galad, Gaul, Aviendha, Perrin, Amys, Tuon, Talmanes, Cadsuane  (I could go on and on and on and on). 

 

But there was only one Dragon Reborn. 

[WheelofJuke]

Yeah, but Hydramount.com doesn't have the same panache.

[swollymammoth]

14 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Literally no one said the concern was meaningless. Simply that people are making premature assumptions without waiting to see how things turn actually out. As they’ve been doing since the beginning in fact. 

Okay cool. Good to know. Let's just get Jennifer to shut down the forums until the Season 7 is finished and then we can resume discussion. 

 

It is 100% valid to point out that certain payoffs from the books are being actively undermined by the show. 

 

As book readers, we know what made the awesome WoT moments awesome. So when we see pieces being pulled out from under them, we say it like it is. This is not premature speculation. It's a realistic assessment of the setups which are an essential part of the payoff. 

[Yojimbo]

7 minutes ago, chri5 said:

But this is literally how the Wheel works in the books.  Each turning is slightly different.  Taveren exist to correct the parts of the weave that threaten to bring it off course, but they don't make it exactly the same.  There is drift, this is the Age Lace.

 

I'm sorry you don't like the way RJ1 built the world to change over time, but he did it not me.

Then they should just go ahead and state that this is not Jordan's WoT, but Rafe's WoT, because Jordan wrote a specific story, and if this is "Another Turning" it is not his story.

 

And that is totally ok, if you are happy with that.   But for some of us, this "new turning" feels too much like fan fiction at times, where someone who has read the books has said "well, I could write that better".   

[chri5]

16 minutes ago, Katherine said:

 

I have read the books multiple times.

...

But there was only one Dragon Reborn. 

Same.  More than I care to admit to.

 

I never, i repeat, never disagreed with there being one Dragon.

 

But why could there not have been a poor scholar who misinterpreted a foretelling or prophecy that discussed the need for multiple taveren to be present at TG for the light to win as a "multi-headed Dragon" in this turning?

 

No one believes it in this tv show.  They simply mentioned that there are versions that mention it (or some such).  No one says they believe it, no one says it is true, and we know (from interviews) that this is explicitly NOT what they are doing.  It's a throwaway line meant to show the confusion of the whole situation and how stories morph over time.

 

This is a recurring theme in the books, that you cannot fully trust the prophecies since they are ancient, have been translated, and even have conflicting versions in the world.

Edited December 12, 2021 by chri5
their instead of there

[JaimAybara]

58 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

So...without Mat...an entire sequence of events gets invariably changed from the books; our three heroes won't go chasing Fain who stole the dagger; leading them to Falme where Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene are collared...and where there's a formation of White Cloaks nearby....

 

And Rafe with his crack troop of writers are going to somehow cleverly resolve this...

version 1) I think Mat will likely take the dagger again/he will meet up with them in Fal Dara  where it will be stolen, or he will have it taken from him in Tar Valon after he regains it and they will continue the plot this way. Mat and Perrin are pretty oblivious to events at the Eye anyway so this won’t be a problem narratively unless they can’t get them in the same place. 

Version 2) The dagger is really important but no longer to Mat specifically moving forward. The adventure for season two will have a single item they chase instead of one/ Mat will be made more useful than in The Great Hunt. 
 

*I want him to go. Meet Uno, Masema, and Ingtar. Plus the dungeon dicing and fighting etc. * 

 

 

Regardless, the showrunners did luck out with the fact that Mat is kept in the dark at the Eye, if he learned the really vital information there in the book we would have really big problems in the show right now, but this I think is an issue they can resolve. He may have some side quests before meeting back up and they may inject one of our favorite scenes before he leaves?

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by JaimAybara
Spelling*

[chri5]

2 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Then they should just go ahead and state that this is not Jordan's WoT, but Rafe's WoT, because Jordan wrote a specific story, and if this is "Another Turning" it is not his story.

 

And that is totally ok, if you are happy with that.   But for some of us, this "new turning" feels too much like fan fiction at times, where someone who has read the books has said "well, I could write that better".   

It is so weird.  There are these words on the screen I am looking at in episode 6 at 8:01 into it that say, "Based on 'The Wheel of Time ' series by Robert Jordan".

 

I read those to mean that I should expect it to be based on "The Wheel of Time" by Robert Jordan, and not be a word for word re-enactment.

 

But I haven't taken an English class for many years, so maybe words are hard for me.

[Katherine]

2 minutes ago, chri5 said:

Same.  More than I care to admit to.

 

I never, i repeat, never disagreed with their being one Dragon.

 

But why could there not have been a poor scholar who misinterpreted a foretelling or prophecy that discussed the need for multiple taveren to be present at TG for the light to win as a "multi-headed Dragon" in this turning?

 

No one believes it in this tv show.  They simply mentioned that there are versions that mention it (or some such).  No one says they believe it, no one says it is true, and we know (from interviews) that this is explicitly NOT what they are doing.  It's a throwaway line meant to show the confusion of the whole situation and how stories morph over time.

 

This is a recurring theme in the books, that you cannot fully trust the prophecies since they are ancient, have been translated, and even have conflicting versions in the world.

 

But.... there is nothing in the religion of the Wheel that ANYWHERE EVER suggests that a soul can be split like that. It just makes no sense and follows no logical thought pattern whatsoever. 

 

Honestly, I think the fact that we keep going back to "the characters don't know what they are talking about" is the only reason we can come up with besides "this is bad writing'. 

 

Hear me: I want this to be good SO MUCH. I love these characters. But I really think it might be bad writing. ? 

[Yojimbo]

8 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

Yeah, but Hydramount.com doesn't have the same panache.

Hmmm, didn't Rafe write several episodes of SHIELD?   Maybe he just has Hydra on the brain.

[chri5]

Just now, Katherine said:

 

But.... there is nothing in the religion of the Wheel that ANYWHERE EVER suggests that a soul can be split like that. It just makes no sense and follows no logical thought pattern whatsoever.

And it cannot happen in this one, and it won't happen. 

 

I really don't understand why this is hard.  That person who wrote that version of the prophecy was wrong in many ways.  There is a kernel of truth buried in a pile of incorrectness.

[chri5]

3 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Hmmm, didn't Rafe write several episodes of SHIELD?   Maybe he just has Hydra on the brain.

We might disagree about the show, but this was funny!

Edited December 12, 2021 by chri5
typo

[Vambram]

21 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

Who else liked that the mashadar seemed to operate with a mind. After being pulled from Mat and in transit to the dagger it tried to get into Moiraine via the mouth?

 

I thought that was interesting. 

When I saw that, I was reminded of the symbiote in Venom.

[dorotea]

15 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

Yeah, but Hydramount.com doesn't have the same panache.

I was thinking the "Dragon's tits' since the mountain in the show kinda looks like it has 2 peaks.

[Elder_Haman]

30 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Change = Don't respect.

Why? Because you say so?

[Ralph]

Prime info updated

 

Clear it is a gateway ter'angreal, and to an actual fishing hut in Tear, which was my assumption. Also referred to in Ter'angreal entry under artefacts. 

 

I believe the great sacrifice means the exile. 

 

Also says Lan disposes of the dagger, I hope that is meant to be ambiguous bc I want it back

Edited December 12, 2021 by Ralph

[flinn]

12 minutes ago, Katherine said:

 

But.... there is nothing in the religion of the Wheel that ANYWHERE EVER suggests that a soul can be split like that. It just makes no sense and follows no logical thought pattern whatsoever. 

 

Honestly, I think the fact that we keep going back to "the characters don't know what they are talking about" is the only reason we can come up with besides "this is bad writing'. 

 

Hear me: I want this to be good SO MUCH. I love these characters. But I really think it might be bad writing. ? 

 I am really beginning to think while Sarah understands how things work in WoT, she doesnt quite understand WHY things work. Jordan spent years upon years developing the physics behind his fantasy and every little change throws a butterfly effect into that.

[Katherine]

8 minutes ago, chri5 said:

And it cannot happen in this one, and it won't happen. 

 

I really don't understand why this is hard.  That person who wrote that version of the prophecy was wrong in many ways.  There is a kernel of truth buried in a pile of incorrectness.

 

 

Souls get split in Harry Potter. 

 

Not in WoT. 

 

 

 

 

[Yojimbo]

18 minutes ago, chri5 said:

It is so weird.  There are these words on the screen I am looking at in episode 6 at 8:01 into it that say, "Based on 'The Wheel of Time ' series by Robert Jordan".

 

I read those to mean that I should expect it to be based on "The Wheel of Time" by Robert Jordan, and not be a word for word re-enactment.

 

But I haven't taken an English class for many years, so maybe words are hard for me.

Where did I ever say I expected a word for word re-enactment.  Thanks for putting words into my mouth and telling me what I think.

 

I'm getting awfully tired of people saying we expect a word for word recreation. Or that we're just nitpickers.   

Edited December 12, 2021 by Yojimbo

[Gothic Flame]

17 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Hmmm, didn't Rafe write several episodes of SHIELD?   Maybe he just has Hydra on the brain.

It'd explain the multi-headed Dragon.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Gothic Flame
Hail Hydra!