tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[KakitaOCU]

10 minutes ago, Meskell said:

In the scenario, I’ve always wondered what would happen to an AS. Moiraine tells Nynaeve that she will take Nynaeve to them once she finds them. 
 

What would actually happen to Moiraine if she just never bothered taking Nynaeve to them?

I don't have the scene at hand, but I think there's discussion somewhere that as long as it was genuinely meant at the time it's no problem.  IE she has to seriously really plan to bring her to them.  But if, say, later she discovered Nynaeve was a DF, then that changes everything and she could change her mind organically.  

 

 

8 minutes ago, dorotea said:

See, in real life, as in real life out there outside the developed world's urban areas there are generally no diversity the way you imagine it. Zero, zilch, nil diversity is a norm for rural areas because these folks have no financial means to travel or to mix until they go full scale immigration, but that's another story.

In real life homogeny happened because there was tens of thousands of years of human development in any given area with little travel.  In the books there was a multi-culture, incredibly diverse kingdom where the Two Rivers is 2000 years ago.  60-100 generations is not enough to force homogeny back.  The people complaining aren't rightfully pointing out how wrong the show is, they're pointing out they don't understand basic genetics.

[Meskell]

I felt the cold opening was ok but even in the moment I couldn’t help but be baffled about why she got off on a punt and her dad just stiff around. He had nothing to stay for and wanted his daughter to survive and thrive. She has to get through Tear when the local population know who she is, that she can channel and hate channellers. At least lead her to the edge of the land…

 

The AS politics came across like scheming teenagers, rather than intelligent adults. 
 

The wayhate being lowered means that there has to be a lot of DF channellers / forsaken out and about just opening doors for people at the minute. Seems like a change that can’t possibly add anything but does make plot holes easier to appear. 
 

The central characters being reduced to lying around and having zero impact on the story, again, is annoying. 
 

Under no circumstances can they horcrux the goddam DR. 
 

Loial *shrug*
 

What was the point of the Oath Rod? If an AS cannot tell a lie, then her just stating the same thing without an Oath Rod amounts to the same result. Also, isn’t the Oath Rod not allowed to be use for punishments?

 

Moiraine using multiple pet names for Siuan during her PUBLIC punishment makes it ridiculously obvious that this obvious reward (not punishment) is exactly what it is. 
 

The lead Sitter of the Blues reminded me so much of Sherlocks brother from the BBC series. 

[Meskell]

The ‘On Your Knees’ from Moiraine was such a horrible gif, tumblr, Twitter moment. It has specifically been put in there to be forced into a meme and go viral. 
 

Horrifically cringeworthy. 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

Actually ... That the Two Rivers has a homogeneous population was key in RJ's WoT because it was suppose to be SuPeR obvious that when it comes to the Emonds Fielder Folks ... "One of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong " ? 

 

Rand being a head and shoulders bigger ginger has lost its significance. 

 

But the diverse casting  complaints (which we're going to hear over and over and over as new people come in and notice that) is likely to be kaboshed by the Mods (because that horse has been beaten to death and resurrected and magically reappears ... even more than the show is gonna do with the characters beloved horses.) So people are pretty tired of hearing it on DM who have been around a while. 

[TheDreadReader]

35 minutes ago, GanoesParan said:

For me, the best theory that I have scene regarding Moiraine's explanation to Liandrin is that she was unaware of Nynaeve's ability to channel because of her block. Somehow, Nynaeve's block towards Saidar also acted as a method to mask her ability to channel, or connection to saidar. 

 

Either that or she found a way to respond truthfully but deceptively.

 

I'm leaning more towards a continuity error than anything else.   They will happen here and there.

 

 

[KakitaOCU]

6 minutes ago, Meskell said:

The ‘On Your Knees’ from Moiraine was such a horrible gif, tumblr, Twitter moment. It has specifically been put in there to be forced into a meme and go viral. 
 

Horrifically cringeworthy. 

And while not specifically something in the tower is definitely an idea from the books (Sea folks marriages work like this, who leads in public follows in private)
 

 

3 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Actually ... That the Two Rivers has a homogeneous population was key in RJ's WoT because it was suppose to be SuPeR obvious that when it comes to the Emonds Fielder Folks ... "One of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong " ? 

Rand stands out as the only Red Headed Blue eyed person in Emond's Field.  Also, all Jordan ever said was Dark Hair and Eyes.  Never anything about skin tone.  This was talked to death on Tor.Com when the casting first came out.

Again, Manetheren (And AoL before it) were diverse ethnically.  2000 years is 60-100 generations.  That is not enough time to forcibly breed out recessive traits.
 

[Blackbyrd]

20 minutes ago, dorotea said:

 

This is an extraordinary urban American take, and I say extraordinary because being Russian implant in US for a very long time I can spot these kind of things and appreciate your PoV while at the same time laugh my head off.  Lets just say that I listened to a few Eastern European reviews of the show (Russian, Polish, Check youtubers) and all of them are very sarcastic of the shows take on the diversity, saying as much as 'this is how a San-Fransisco-an would imagine a rural settlement in the middle of nowhere mountains'. See, in real life, as in real life out there outside the developed world's urban areas there are generally no diversity the way you imagine it. Zero, zilch, nil diversity is a norm for rural areas because these folks have no financial means to travel or to mix until they go full scale immigration, but that's another story.

 

See, in real life- when the Dragon Reborn broke the World there was generally no diversity the way you imagined. Cuz, ya' know, the Dragon Reborn and the One Power are totally real.... not speculative fiction at all so things need to be strictly ethnocentric. Yeah, this is not a criticism- more a preference of POV

 

 

[TheDreadReader]

Why didn't Siuan's father help her get to the Tower?

 

He was afraid he couldn't lend her a hand along the way.

 

 

[WheelofJuke]

1 minute ago, TheDreadReader said:

Why didn't Siuan's father help her get to the Tower?

 

He was afraid he couldn't lend her a hand along the way.

 

 

Seriously, though, as a father with a young daughter, this scene was pure trash. 

 

No self respecting father would just let their child pole off upriver (!) hundreds and hundreds of miles through wilderness to a far away city. SORRY. Some of the worst writing...

[fra85uk]

Just now, WheelofJuke said:

Seriously, though, as a father with a young daughter, this scene was pure trash. 

 

No self respecting father would just let their child pole off upriver (!) hundreds and hundreds of miles through wilderness to a far away city. SORRY. Some of the worst writing...

 

But all fathers are more or less like that in Rafe of Time.

Either womanizer or violent or careless or useless.

 

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

Seriously, though, as a father with a young daughter, this scene was pure trash. 

 

No self respecting father would just let their child pole off upriver (!) hundreds and hundreds of miles through wilderness to a far away city. SORRY. Some of the worst writing...

You're a father with a young daughter in a world where you can be that protective and nature.

A hundred years ago it was common to not name a child until they got to 2 or so, because they might die and you didn't want to get too attached until they survived.  You also had multiple children specifically because some would die.

We don't know the whole situation, it's possible he sent her because he was going to go stall and keep people from looking for her.  It's possible she was going upstream to meet people who'd take her to Tar Valon.   We saw a single scene of him sending her off and you're jumping to conclusions.
 

Just now, fra85uk said:

 

But all fathers are more or less like that in Rafe of Time.

Either womanizer or violent or careless or useless.

 

 

You keep pushing this.  We've had exactly 3 bad fathers talked about.  At least 2 good fathers, multiple not bad fathers, and 2 father figures who are all good.

You're arguing a narrative that doesn't exist, not sure why.

Edited December 10, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[Texas Grognard]

2 hours ago, NetNightmare said:

to "fetch" the girls since Lan wen to "fetch" the boys, and maybe (we will see) to guide them through the ways at least I hope so

 

 

Or maybe that wasn't "important" sometimes the easier explanation is the one that ring most true ... is the fact they were pillow friends so important ?? well of course the answer to that depends on individuals to me for example absolutely is not. On a side note "pillow friends" can have abroad spectrum o significance  most of the time it will just be something innocent or part of juvenile sex exploration. Nonetheless since they have no time in 8 episodes season they decided to follow the "love romance" path and lend all that time to it.

 

That was a conscious choice. take it for what it is, they are not making change for time constraint, but because they wanted to tell a different "story" (call it another turning if it rings better). Many people are waiting for a convergence of all these changes to the original story line, I had to surrender to the fact this wont be the case.  I believe it will just get more different, looks at all the ripples they have created in this episode... we will see

You're talking about a time in publishing when "Don't Ask Don't Tell" was considered to be too liberal in the US military.  Pillow Friends would not have been acceptable in mainstream fiction.

 

The show is being written for a 21st Century audience that values identity and representation.  If it is possible to work it in earlier, they will. Is it important to the plot? Not really.  Is it important to large segements of the current audience? You'd better believe it.

[DojoToad]

5 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

You're a father with a young daughter in a world where you can be that protective and nature.

A hundred years ago it was common to not name a child until they got to 2 or so, because they might die and you didn't want to get too attached until they survived.  You also had multiple children specifically because some would die.

We don't know the whole situation, it's possible he sent her because he was going to go stall and keep people from looking for her.  It's possible she was going upstream to meet people who'd take her to Tar Valon.   We saw a single scene of him sending her off and you're jumping to conclusions.

Just working with the information provided...

 

Would be jumping to conclusions if we thought he was going to stall or that Siuan would be meeting people upstream as well.

Edited December 10, 2021 by DojoToad

[Meskell]

19 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

And while not specifically something in the tower is definitely an idea from the books (Sea folks marriages work like this, who leads in public follows in private)
 

 

Rand stands out as the only Red Headed Blue eyed person in Emond's Field.  Also, all Jordan ever said was Dark Hair and Eyes.  Never anything about skin tone.  This was talked to death on Tor.Com when the casting first came out.

Again, Manetheren (And AoL before it) were diverse ethnically.  2000 years is 60-100 generations.  That is not enough time to forcibly breed out recessive traits.
 

My problem isn’t that it’s a custom that exists within the books, it’s that the specific ‘On Your Knees’ line was specifically written in to be a meme. 
 

It happens in a lot of shows and completely takes me out of the world. The worst series for it was 100% Sherlock, which descended into a tumblr shipping mess to cater to the ‘fandom’. 

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Just working with the information provided...

 

Would be jumping to conclusions if we thought he was going to stall or that Siuan would be meeting people upstream as well.

It's jumping to conclusion to assume anything the information doesn't provide us.  

What we actually know:
Siuan had to leave for people fearing her channeling. 
Father sent her alone on a boat up river.
Father had no boat or house left or way to survive to our view.

What we don't know:
Siuans full and exact path to Tar Valon.
Why father stayed behind when he had nothing

Some people are jumping to conclusions, yes.  I just posited several other options that also work perfectly well.  I didn't insist any individual reason was correct.  

[TheDreadReader]

11 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

Seriously, though, as a father with a young daughter, this scene was pure trash. 

 

No self respecting father would just let their child pole off upriver (!) hundreds and hundreds of miles through wilderness to a far away city. SORRY. Some of the worst writing...

 

There are times where excessive literalism gets in the way of a perfectly good symbolic send-off.

 

It is possible to overthink some things a little.

 

[Daenelia]

Very good episode. Loved that Moiraine and Suan are even closer, it makes sense and gives a little extra to their close bond (obviously).

 

Loved Egwene's reaction that she thought they were talking about her being so strong and then Nyn being all like 'meh whatever'.

 

The Ways are exactly like I imaged. That is pretty scary: I did imagine it dark and ruined and so on. That must have been a description in the books, because I don't just imagine that out of thin air...

 

My guy was also very happy with this episode and we are now fans of Liandrin for being a red with a boyfriend. Secret boyfriend!!

[jaylew]

1 hour ago, dorotea said:

 

This is an extraordinary urban American take, and I say extraordinary because being Russian implant in US for a very long time I can spot these kind of things and appreciate your PoV while at the same time laugh my head off.  Lets just say that I listened to a few Eastern European reviews of the show (Russian, Polish, Check youtubers) and all of them are very sarcastic of the shows take on the diversity, saying as much as 'this is how a San-Fransisco-an would imagine a rural settlement in the middle of nowhere mountains'. See, in real life, as in real life out there outside the developed world's urban areas there are generally no diversity the way you imagine it. Zero, zilch, nil diversity is a norm for rural areas because these folks have no financial means to travel or to mix until they go full scale immigration, but that's another story.

This makes no sense. It's based on our earth experience, not the fantasy world we're following. In WOT, there was a flourishing society with magic and technology thousands of years ago and people were able to travel and did. After the breaking of the world, that wasn't the case but it doesn't matter because there would already have been immigration and EFers are the descendants of Manetheren which was a major city. It makes perfect sense. This is not the "real world" you talk about. It's a fantasy world. 

 

Have your Eastern European Youtubers watch the Origins episodes "Saidin, Siadar, Stone", "Fall of Manetheren" and "Breaking of the World' and hopefully they'll understand and move on to the plenty of legitimate things to criticize about the show because that isn't one of them. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by jaylew

[Wraith235]

got to thinking more about the TAR Scene - and no I dont think thats what it was ... TAR was always a place they entered when they were asleep .... she physically entered it ...the more I think about it the more  I think that was a Traveling Ter'angreal which is hugely problematic 
now IIRC there was someone who physically entered TAR  but I cannot remember who (Rand ?) 

no - the more I think about this episode the more my "give a **** button is broken" 
and Ive been stewing on the statment by Rafe about "Yes Rand is the DR" and I keep going back to what Moraine said in the show - The Truth you hear may not be the truth yo want to hear - and now I fully expect the DR to be at LEAST 2 different individuals - Rand and Eg, ... Probably all 4 .... 

I no longer have confidence that Rafe is trustworthy to handle this property
and quite Frankly I think he owes us some explination on why 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Wraith235

[Daenelia]

1 minute ago, Wraith235 said:

[...]

I no longer have confidence that Rafe is trustworthy to handle this property
and quite Frankly I think he owes us some explination on why 

... entitled much? ?

No seriously, why does he owe you an explanation? Why?

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, Wraith235 said:

got to thinking more about the TAR Scene - and no I dont think thats what it was ... TAR was always a place they entered when they were asleep .... she physically entered it ...the more I think about it the more  I think that was a Traveling Ter'angreal which is hugely problematic 
now IIRC there was someone who physically entered it but I cannot remember who (Rand ?) 

no - the more I think about this episode the more my "give a **** button is broken" 
and Ive been stewing on the statment by Rafe about "Yes Rand is the DR" and I keep going back to what Moraine said in the show - The Truth you hear may not be the truth yo want to hear - and now I fully expect the DR to be at LEAST 2 different individuals - Rand and Eg, ... Probably all 4 .... 

I no longer have confidence that Rafe is trustworthy to handle this property
and quite Frankly I think he owes us some explination on why 

Did we watch the same scene?

Moraine says every area has it's own version of what the Dragon should be.  Mentions one gleeman singing about a multi headed dragon.

Siuan says "The dragon as more than one person?"  Essentially blows it off as stupid, then asked which individual it is.  

Moraine says she doesn't know yet.  She was sure it can't be Nynaeve but her power makes her question.

They discuss the eye and when Moraine says she's going Siuan says it's death for the ones who aren't the Dragon.

Nothing in this scene suggests the Dragon is more than one person.

[Elder_Haman]

20 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

But all fathers are more or less like that in Rafe of Time.

Because we have such a large sample size... ?

[fra85uk]

22 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

You're a father with a young daughter in a world where you can be that protective and nature.

A hundred years ago it was common to not name a child until they got to 2 or so, because they might die and you didn't want to get too attached until they survived.  You also had multiple children specifically because some would die.

We don't know the whole situation, it's possible he sent her because he was going to go stall and keep people from looking for her.  It's possible she was going upstream to meet people who'd take her to Tar Valon.   We saw a single scene of him sending her off and you're jumping to conclusions.
 

 

You keep pushing this.  We've had exactly 3 bad fathers talked about.  At least 2 good fathers, multiple not bad fathers, and 2 father figures who are all good.

You're arguing a narrative that doesn't exist, not sure why.

Mat father---> bad

Stepin father---> bad

Alanna warder father ---> bad

Egwene father ----> downplayed

Rand father ---> downplayed

Perrin ---> no mention of fatherly figure such as master Luhan

Nynaeve father ---> teaching Nyn how to track in books, ofc not mentioned in shows because Nyn is suddenly orphan

 

Ehm yes a narrative that does not exists :D

Edited December 10, 2021 by fra85uk

[RextheDog]

6 hours ago, Indil said:

Exactly. I'd imagine the first thing Siuan and Moiraine talk about when they meet in private is the DR. They literally searched for the Dragon for 20 years, and man-kind rids on their shoulder. But the show depicted it as something to be casually dropped after sex.

again....id say theyre striking up a good work life balance....

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Because we have such a large sample size... ?

Good onscreen male parental figures: Tam, Thom, Siuan's dad
Perfectly normal onscreen male parental figures: Bran

Bad onscreen male parental figures: Abell Cauthon (Still not happy about that)
Bad offscreen male parental figures: Stepin and Ihvon's fathers.

That's 3 or 4 to 1 or 3.  The existing sample size doesn't even support the stance.

 

2 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Mat father---> bad

Stepin father---> bad

Alanna warder father ---> bad

Egwene father ----> downplayed

Rand father ---> downplayed

Perrin ---> no mention of fatherly figure such as master Luhan

Nynaeve father ---> teaching Nyn how to track in books, ofc not mentioned in shows because Nyn is suddenly orphan

 

Ehm yes a narrative that does not exists :D

 

Tam is downplayed?  Did we watch the same episode?

You can't use non-information to assume negative.  Or rather, it can mean both.  You claim non-mention equals bad dad for Perrin and Nynaeve, I can say it shows good.  My argument is even MORE likely because statistically people complain more about bad experiences than they talk up good ones.

Edited December 10, 2021 by KakitaOCU