tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[AusLeviathan]

39 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Number of Aes Sedai it takes to make a shield, this is your point of contention? I don't  really care if it is less, from a story writing casting perspective it makes it easier to shield, but also, 2 aes sedai are not successfully shielding, he is allowing them to think they are until his forces arrive and he can escape. They say multiple times they should have more. 

Actually it's made pretty clear two Aes Sedai can shield Logain. After all two Aes Sedai were managing to shield Logain (who was holding the One Power) before Stepin interfered.

 

Logain's escape is a result of Kerene and Liandrin being distracted and loosening the shield, remember Logain couldn't hear so he had no way to know his army was there, all he knew was that the Aes Sedai weren't fully focused on his shield.

 

As for the discussion of whether men are stronger than women in this show, I think the episode answered pretty clearly that they aren't.

 

1. Logain is presented as unnaturally strong for a man to the point that Liandrin has most of the Aes Sedai camp agreeing with her that he's too dangerous to transport without gentling, only Kerene seems to be pushing back against her due to her morals. Yet in spite of this incredible strength he's supposed to have, he's able to be held by two women who we know are far below the strongest potential strength for women.

 

2. Moiraine makes it clear that Logain is weaker than Egwene at the end when she dismissed him as too weak to be the DR. Moiraine's own words show that she doesn't believe Logain is even close to the power of the DR and yet she considers Egwene to be a possible DR.

 

3. Logain acknowledges that Nynaeve is stronger than himself.

 

This change is not a surprise. Rafe was never going to portray women as being naturally weaker in the One Power than men.

Edited November 29, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Arthellion]

@ausleviathan 

 

See, my take is that Logain was purposefully holding back until the right moment. idk, the smirk on his face when he broke indicated to me he was just waiting for the right moment. 

[AusLeviathan]

12 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

See, my take is that Logain was purposefully holding back until the right moment. idk, the smirk on his face when he broke indicated to me he was just waiting for the right moment. 

Why would he have though that moment was the right moment compared to his other opportunities?

 

He'd already tried to break out and almost did when they were distracted before and he couldn't hear so he had no way of knowing his army was there.

 

If he was waiting for the right moment to break out then why didn't he do so before when they were distracted? From his point of view there would've been no difference between those two moments.

 

Plus like I said he was actually being shielded by just two women and needed Stepin to place his axes through the shield to escape. They were shielding him with difficulty now that he was holding the One Power but the point is they were managing to do it despite shielding someone holding the One Power being something that should be in theory at least significantly harder to do.

 

If he's strong enough to break a shield from two women then why is just standing there whilst they shield him and allowing others to arrive as backup?

 

It's pretty clear that Moiraine + Liandrin focusing on the shield > Logain trying as hard as he can.

Edited November 29, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[KakitaOCU]

22 minutes ago, imnotthedragonurlookingfor said:

Hi all. I’m new.

 

I read the Eye of the World in preparation for the series, and I have to say that I loved the book, but the series is taking some odd departures. I’m wondering if I should continue with the books if they will eventually mirror what the series is doing.

 

For example, I never got the sense that men were bad in the books...

 

Logain’s awe and murmured “Like a raging sun” seemed odd to me as Logain was stronger than almost two sisters with decades of experience...

 

It's up to you.  In my experience if you're the type of person where any change at all (And if your comments about braid tugging and such were serious vs joking you might be) then I'd say lay off the books or the show, your call.

If you're the type of person who can enjoy different takes or understand the need for changes due to medium, the show has been wonderful IMO, not perfect or anything, but very good.

To your actual points.

Gender: If you've only read EotW, then yeah, there's a bit of balance, because as many have said, RJ was deliberately copying LotR.  But, let me point out something about EotW even.  Only women have power, the Women's Circle outranks the Village Council.  Queens rule more than half of the world's countries.  Every person of actual authority except for Agelmar is a woman.  I'll also say this divide and point continues and grows.  It's not meant to be a matriarchal society where men have no power, but it is meant to be, well, kind of the opposite of what we have been the last few decades.  The surface appearance of equality but really one gender ends up with far too many advantages.

Logain: two aspects here.  #1: Experience can trump power in many circumstances.  Nynaeve would not have been able to shield Logain.  But any of those sisters would have been able to take Nynaeve apart at this point in the story.  This is despite the fact that Nynaeve is orders of magnitude stronger than Moraine or Liandrin.  #2: Logain can't see Nynaeve's weaves.  He's watching the effect and being stunned.

Channeling background:  In general, a given weave takes a certain level of power.  Healing as Aes Sedai know it, for example, takes a certain strength in Air and Water and Spirit.  Nynaeve just went WAY past that strength and then some.  Healing dozens of people at once of fatal wounds without exhausting or weakening them.  Without being able to see the weaves all he knows is "She just did something borderline impossible."  

Now, to have that tie to the strength issue.  Weaves take a certain level of power unless...   Unless you find a different way to do them or unless you have an innate talent for that specific type of magic.  Example without spoilers.  There's a weave that comes up later on in the series that it turns out takes more strength than most Aes Sedai possess individually.  We then meet a character who is a lot weaker than most Aes Sedai, who has a talent for that type of weave specifically, and does ridiculously huge and cool things with it, much to the utter confusion of everyone.

[KakitaOCU]

18 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

1. Logain is presented as unnaturally strong for a man to the point that Liandrin has most of the Aes Sedai camp agreeing with her that he's too dangerous to transport without gentling, only Kerene seems to be pushing back against her due to her morals. Yet in spite of this incredible strength he's supposed to have, he's able to be held by two women who we know are far below the strongest potential strength for women.

 

2. Moiraine makes it clear that Logain is weaker than Egwene at the end when she dismissed him as too weak to be the DR. Moiraine's own words show that she doesn't believe Logain is even close to the power of the DR and yet she considers Egwene to be a possible DR.

 

3. Logain acknowledges that Nynaeve is stronger than himself.

 

Disagreement there.

1: Again, he's letting them hold.  You disagree with the point others have made, but that's a disagreement, not a factual accuracy on your part.  Also, Moraine and Liandrin are strong.  Not as strong as Egwene, but strong.  Plus the nature of shielding has changed in the series.

2: No she didn't.  At no point does she say Logain is weaker than Egwene.  Also at no point does she actually say she suspects Egwene to be the DR.  First Oath at its finest.  

3: No, he doesn't.  He says "Like a raging sun".  He can't see her weaves.  What he can see is that she just snap healed over a dozen mortally wounded people at once without any seeming exhaustion or effort.  Now, as I touch in my above reply to imnot.  Most people think it takes certain levels of power to do X.  So doing X times 12+ is going to be huge.  We know that's not the case when you add different weaves or talents in, but the general belief is that it takes strength.  All he can see is something that he himself could likely not do and jumps to the conclusion it's due to strength and raw power instead of ability.

[Taishar Hawaii]

‘Like a raging sun.’ Seems an odd choice of words if he can’t see the weaves. 
 

It’s little tidbits like that, add it to other tidbits from previous episodes. . . 
 

I sure hope I’m wrong.  

[AusLeviathan]

25 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

2: No she didn't.  At no point does she say Logain is weaker than Egwene.  Also at no point does she actually say she suspects Egwene to be the DR.  First Oath at its finest.  

Lan in private is flat out using Egwene's strength as a benchmark for whether someone is strong enough that they could be the DR. Was that Aes Sedai world play too? Is Moiraine playing games with Lan for some reason?

 

Note that Moiraine tells Lan that she doesn't think Logain is stronger than Egwene (who they're using as the benchmark for the DR's strength) but she doesn't know for sure. Later after actually seeing Logain break free she seems to get her answer as it's at this point she informs Logain that he's far weaker than the DR will be.

 

25 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

He says "Like a raging sun".  He can't see her weaves.

We see a light and he covered his eyes at the same time it appeared. If he didn't see that light then what did he see exactly and why did he compare her to a light source like the sun?

 

25 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Again, he's letting them hold.

Then what is he waiting for? He doesn't know his army is there because he can't hear. What made this moment special to him compared to the other moment they were distracted and he almost broke the shield and why is he only trying to break free when they're distracted?

Edited November 29, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[KakitaOCU]

8 minutes ago, imnotthedragonurlookingfor said:

You make it seem like anyone who doesn’t like the show is a narrow minded jerk. Not all changes a show makes are necessary or even a good idea.

 

and I didn’t agree with your explanation of the roles men and women occupy at all in the first book, but if the series does devolve into anything like you’ve described then I have far too many books to read to spend it on the Wheel of Time series.

 

Thank you for your reply. Despite what you said, I do recognize you took the time to respond and attempt to assist me, which I appreciate, if nothing else.

Not at all.  It doesn't take being a narrow minded jerk to be a book purist.  Example, I have friends who to this day hate the LotR films over very little things like this or that part of the shire being off, or removing Tom Bombadill.

The show is going to be different.  Some people will really hang up on that and it'll cause them unhappiness.  There's not good or bad there, just a matter of how people are wired.

For the Gender Politics.  Look at it this way.  In the case of the books, 3000 years ago every single man in authority or power went nuts and broke the world beyond recognition.  For the last 3000 years magic has only been touched by women.  And those women have largely been what is an equivalent of the Vatican/Catholic church.  They have played politics and pedaled influence for 3000 years.  

As a result, at the start of the series there are 17 distinct countries in the main continent.  Of those 8 are ruled by women, one of which is a place that has political influence over almost all of them.  Of the ones ruled by men.  One is a puppet kingdom actually run by the Children of Light.  One is a council type situation that has some women in it.  And one just lost it's king and is going to end up with a queen.

Again, it's not that men have no power, it's that due to the very real nature of magic in the world, women have the top influence.  This was on purpose by the author as a way to explore this issue.

[KakitaOCU]

18 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Lan in private is flat out using Egwene's strength as a benchmark for whether someone is strong enough that they could be the DR. Was that Aes Sedai world play too? Is Moiraine playing games with Lan for some reason?

 

We see a light and he covered his eyes at the same time it appeared. If he didn't see that light then what did he see exactly and why did he compare her to a light source like the sun?

 

Then what is he waiting for? He doesn't know his army is there because he can't hear. What made this moment special to him compared to the other moment they were distracted and he almost broke the shield and why is he only trying to break free when they're distracted?

1: Lan is not an authority on strength in the one power and Moraine is cagey and slippery out of habit with everyone, including Lan, this is in the books too.

 

2: He flinches back when she starts channeling and we see weaves touching him.  It could be that.  It could be that Nynaeve is a Ta'veren in this telling, since he can see them.  I could be completely wrong and he can see Saidar for some reason.  We established earlier that women can't see Saidin, maybe they dropped the goosebump thing and went literal.  In which case I'll have been wrong, but I don't see the hand thing as an automatic sign that he sees her as stronger based on that.  

As for the raging sun?  Because Moraine deliberately used the term earlier and so he's calling back to that?  I do that in real life all the time where someone said something and when it comes up I remember those words specifically.

3: He's not stupid, he can guess how long it'll take his men to catch up, he can judge rough distances and then wait for a moment they're distracted or disoriented.  They stopped his ears but don't appear to have stopped his eyes, he could be taking glances now and then and sees them disoriented or arguing.  Or, Liandrin deliberately let him free...

That aside, breaking free when they're distracted means less strength used to break the shield and more strength available for the fight that HAS to be coming right after.

[DaddyFinn]

32 minutes ago, imnotthedragonurlookingfor said:

You make it seem like anyone who doesn’t like the show is a narrow minded jerk. Not all changes a show makes are necessary or even a good idea.

You said you have read only book 1? Sorry, but you don't have the knowledge to say that these changes won't work when considering the whole series

[AusLeviathan]

22 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

1: Lan is not an authority on strength in the one power and Moraine is cagey and slippery out of habit with everyone, including Lan, this is in the books too.

So your suggesting Moiraine is choosing to mislead Lan into thinking that Egwene's strength is a good benchmark for the DR.

 

She wouldn't have even had to have told him that Egwene can use the One Power and yet you think she decided to make up an unnecessary misrepresentation to the man helping her look for the DR regarding a power he can't even sense and which will only result in him asking her questions comparing others against Egwene in the future which she will have to further find ways to step around to avoid making the misrepresentation clear. Why?

 

So does that mean Dana wasn't referring to Egwene as one of the five the shadow was looking for and that the Dark One has another person who could be the DR they're looking for instead?

 

22 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

As for the raging sun?  Because Moraine deliberately used the term earlier and so he's calling back to that?

Yes and her comment referred to strength, hence why he used it.

 

22 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

He's not stupid, he can guess how long it'll take his men to catch up, he can judge rough distances and then wait for a moment they're distracted or disoriented.  They stopped his ears but don't appear to have stopped his eyes, he could be taking glances now and then and sees them disoriented or arguing.  Or, Liandrin deliberately let him free...

1. He already tried to get free when they were distracted before and failed.

 

2. There would be nothing different to his point of view in this situation then the last time they were distracted and just like the last time they were distracted he tried to break free.

 

3. I'm not convinced show Liandrin has turned to the shadow yet but if this was the case it would support what I am saying that he couldn't break free whilst two of them were shielding him.

 

No matter which way you look at it he needed help from them being distracted or possible Liandrin deliberately letting up on the shield. There's no other explanation that makes sense.

 

There are a number of reasons why it would be impossible for him to know when his army would show up, including difficulty in keeping track of time in the cave and not knowing how long it took to organize the army to go after him.

Edited November 29, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[mogi68]

The brief fighting between Thom and the Myrddraal was very good imo. It should have been in Whitebridge, but the knives were awesome.

 

I think the show is doing a good job with 1v1's. The fight between Tam and Narg was fun as well - makes me want to see the Blademaster duel in season 2!

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

So your suggesting Moiraine is choosing to mislead Lan into thinking that Egwene's strength is a good benchmark for the DR.

 

She wouldn't have even had to have told him that Egwene can use the One Power and yet you think she decided to make up an unnecessary misrepresentation to the man helping her look for the DR regarding a power he can't even sense and which will only result in him asking her questions comparing others against Egwene in the future which she will have to further find ways to step around to avoid making the misrepresentation clear. Why?

 

So does that mean Dana wasn't referring to Egwene as one of the five the shadow was looking for and that the Dark One has another person who could be the DR they're looking for instead?

 

Yes and her comment referred to strength, hence why he used it.

 

1. He already tried to get free when they were distracted before and failed.

 

2. There would be nothing different to his point of view in this situation then the last time they were distracted and just like the last time they were distracted he tried to break free.

 

3. I'm not convinced show Liandrin has turned to the shadow yet but if this was the case it would support what I am saying that he couldn't break free whilst two of them were shielding him.

 

No matter which way you look at it he needed help from them being distracted or possible Liandrin deliberately letting up on the shield. There's no other explanation that makes sense.

I'm suggesting Moraine hides and deflects out of a lifetime habit of being Cairhienin and Aes Sedai.  Something the books support.

More specifically, she never says Egwene.  She says the DR's strength.  That could mean the strength eventually shown, that could mean she actually DID tell Lan it's specifically one of the boys despite her "One of you four" line.  That could mean a lot of things.  You're connecting to one single interpretation that helps your argument and ignoring all the others.

1: Did he?  Or did he test and push so they'd become complacent in what strength he has?

2: Other than maybe an internal clock, or Liandrin deliberately weakening more in an ploy to draw him out and justify gentling him.

3: You can be convinced or not convinced and that's fine.  But it doesn't take her being a DF to let the shield slip.  She wants him gentled.  She could rationalize letting the shield slip so she has justification to do so.  Her own arrogance could lead her to believe they can win without issue so there's no "I'm getting my sister's killed" thought process.

[MasterAblar]

I love that people are assuming so much about the strength in the one power of various characters off of nothing. Moiraine has no idea how strong Logain is. She says herself she doesn’t know. She’s guessing based on the scant evidence Logain gives. There’s literally 0 evidence that the shield was weakened when Logain broke through. Logain’s attempt earlier could easily be dismissed as him testing them, or making them think they could hold him.

 

Similarly Logain has no idea how strong  Nyneave. All he is doing is reacting to her exceptional show of power. His words are meant to echo Moiraine’s statement, and their talk probably unnerved him somewhat. Moiraine and Liandrin together were pressuring him but he was able to hold them off and still channel to shatter the axes. It’s also explicitly said Liandrin is pulling more than she can safely.

[mogi68]

8 hours ago, dwn said:

 

Moiraine's puppy was weird.

 

 

It's a seed of foreshadowing. The fact that Alanna remembers Moiraine being a novice (and likely her relationship with Siuan) is a problem. Collusion between Siuan and Moiraine was the prime factor allowing Elaida and company to depose the Amyrlin

[AusLeviathan]

27 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I love that people are assuming so much about the strength in the one power of various characters off of nothing.

Alright I'm convinced. Everyone in the show is lying to and tricking everyone else regardless of whether they're on the same side or not and regardless of whether it makes sense for them to do so. Someone who can't see women using the One Power actually can see them use it except the book consultant said he can't so we have to believe he can't. Egwene is being considered by everyone as a possible DR but isn't actually a possible DR, both Moiraine and Ishamael are just trying to trick each other.

 

Or you know maybe, just maybe, the series run by a show runner who has made it clear he needs to fix the problems in the books and who keeps saying he wants to portray women as strong wanted the main female characters to not be weaker than minor male characters or indeed be shown as much weaker than the main male character either.

 

Everyone can have their own theory though. I'm going to be waiting with popcorn for when people realize that the changes they think are only being implied to keep the DR mystery going are actually real changes that will affect the entire series.

 

The reaction when Egwene eventually manages to stop a shield from Rand or perhaps even shield Rand herself will be glorious to behold.

Edited November 29, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Calembel]

I'm losing more and more interest in the show with every new episode...

[KakitaOCU]

19 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Alright I'm convinced. Everyone in the show is lying to and tricking everyone else regardless of whether they're on the same side or not and regardless of whether it makes sense for them to do so. Someone who can't see women using the One Power actually can see them use it except the book consultant said he can't so we have to believe he can't. Egwene is being considered by everyone as a possible DR but isn't actually a possible DR, both Moiraine and Ishamael are just trying to trick each other.

 

Or you know maybe, just maybe, the series run by a show runner who has made it clear he needs to fix the problems in the books and who keeps saying he wants to portray women as strong wanted the main female characters to not be weaker than minor male characters or indeed be shown as much weaker than the main male character either.

 

Everyone can have their own theory though. I'm going to be waiting with popcorn for when people realize that the changes they think are only being implied to keep the DR mystery going are actually real changes that will affect the entire series.

 

The reaction when Egwene eventually manages to stop a shield from Rand or perhaps even shield Rand herself will be glorious to behold.

Everyone is lying to everyone?  Because several of us point out that Moraine specifically is constantly shading and twisting the truth because of who she is and how she was brought up?  Hyperbole much?  Egwene is not being considered "by everyone".  Moraine states "One of the four of you" to a group that included Egwene.  Which could be her genuine misunderstanding, could be a deliberate mislead or could be a dozen other reasons I haven't thought of.  No one else thinks she's important yet except for Moraine.

Also, popcorn?  You act like I'm vested in being right here.  I'm just pointing out how the thing reads to me and allowing possibility other than the one narrow path you've decided on.  If I turn out to be wrong I'll be wrong and address the show in the light of whatever is actually presented.  There's no "winning" for me here other than being honest.

Edited November 29, 2021 by KakitaOCU
Added response.

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, Calembel said:

I'm losing more and more interest in the show with every new episode...

Care to discuss why?  Which parts you disagree with?  Which parts you feel needed to be different?  Forums work well to discuss things.  They work less well for general feedback.

[Calembel]

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Care to discuss why?  Which parts you disagree with?  Which parts you feel needed to be different?  Forums work well to discuss things.  They work less well for general feedback.

That's the thing, there's nothing specifically which I have issue with necessarily, but its just not grabbing me like the book did. I'll definitely keep watching it though and hope it gets better for me.

[AusLeviathan]

8 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Everyone is lying to everyone?

Apparently.

 

I was starting to give the show a chance after episode 4 and treat it as just a different canon from the books but everyone has now convinced me that the show is in fact actually still following the book canon and that I shouldn't believe things the show makes clear which are different from the books.

 

So now I'm going to go back to treating this show like the joke it is and since I'm back to that I can be firmly confident that as a book fan this show is one of the worst shows I have ever seen.

Edited November 29, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Elder_Haman]

40 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Egwene's strength is a good benchmark for the DR.

Wait, you're conflating two things. The DR is going to be "the most powerful channeler". So by extension, if Egwene is more powerful than Logain, then Logain is not the DR. Egwene isn't "a good benchmark", it's simply a point of reference.

 

All Lan is doing is helping Moiraine to process the information. She's having doubts about whether she found the correct people, or whether Logain might really be the Dragon. He's stronger than anything she ever experienced before.

 

I'm not really sure what the issue is here. Logain is really strong. Egwene and Nynaeve are also very strong. This is all canon. Relative strengths in the power is not something they are going to be worried about for tv purposes. Especially once they introduce angreal.

[AusLeviathan]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Wait, you're conflating two things. The DR is going to be "the most powerful channeler". So by extension, if Egwene is more powerful than Logain, then Logain is not the DR. Egwene isn't "a good benchmark", it's simply a point of reference.

Clearly Logain is much stronger than Egwene and Moiraine is hiding this from Lan because she's afraid that he's a darkfriend and she doesn't want the shadow to know.

Edited November 29, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[KakitaOCU]

4 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Clearly Logain is much stronger than Egwene and Moiraine is hiding this from Lan because she's afraid that he's a darkfriend and she doesn't want the shadow to know.

Or... idea.  Moraine can't sense how strong Logain is except "A lot stronger than me"  And so can't make an honest and perfect comparison to Egwene one way or another.

She's hiding details from Lan because after decades and decades of being a Cairhienin Noblewoman and then an Aes Sedai she keeps secrets and deflects out of habit. 

It'd be nice if you discussed the points being made instead of jumping to weird hyperbole so you can dismiss others.

[Elder_Haman]

26 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Someone who can't see women using the One Power actually can see them use it except the book consultant said he can't so we have to believe he can't.

This idea that Logain covered his eyes, so that means he could see is silly. Covering your face is a natural reaction to anything flying at you. Logain experienced a massive blast of the One Power, powerful enough to heal multiple people at once and he reacted to it by throwing his hands up.

 

His comment about the "sun" was a direct reference to Moiraine's earlier comment that the DR's power would be like a sun to his candle. It makes total sense that Logain would be awed by that much of the one power being channeled by a single woman after two women working together had trouble holding his shield. It was the most power he'd ever experienced.