tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[ArrylT]

During my re-read of EOTW found an instance of where healing by Moiraine likely would leave a scar

 

Spoiler

“I'm surprised at you people,” Bran rumbled. “Paet al'Caar, your boy's leg was broken last night, but I saw him walking on it today — because of her. Eward Candwin, you were lying on your belly with a gash down your back like a fish for cleaning, till she laid hands on you. Now it looks as if it happened a month ago, and unless I misdoubt there'll barely be a scar.

 

[JaimAybara]

24 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Visibly ill is NOT in the Owyn story. Looking sour? A sure sign of channeling. Thom said that Owyn's life turned sour. Clutching a dagger a moment after being threatened by an armed bowman. That's a channeler for sure!

If they went further with depictions of odd behavior we would likely have people complaining that it was too over the top and not subtle enough. I hear your points. Agree with some of them, but prefer the subtle nods.

Spoiler

At the end of the day they are reading into something that isn’t there/ misinterpreting the situation.

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by JaimAybara

[whiskey delta]

26 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Visibly ill is NOT in the Owyn story. Looking sour? A sure sign of channeling. Thom said that Owyn's life turned sour. Clutching a dagger a moment after being threatened by an armed bowman. That's a channeler for sure!

Here’s the actual quote from the episode:

 

“Then, one day, he went sour. Snapping at family and friends. Jumping at shadows. Animals had their hair up whenever he passed. Nobody could figure out what happened until he threw a rock without using his hands. Mat's got all the signs, lad.”

 

If it makes you feel better replace “ill” with another word to describe someone who is physically declining. Take it a step further and one could argue this is the first visible indicator that something is wrong with Mat, hence the closer attention on Thom’s part. He knows the Dark One is after them and is trying to figure out why so his anecdotal evidence is the best answer he’s got so far - that’s my theory anyway.

 

You can put your own justification behind why Mat clutched the dagger but the action compared to how Rand reacts was intentional for this reason.

Edited November 28, 2021 by DELTA

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, JaimAybara said:

If they went further with depictions of odd behavior we would likely have people complaining

So, what you are saying is that Thom interpreted Matt's fairly normal behavior as showing that he was a channeler, just like the late, lamented Owyn. There's no arguing with that. And, coincidentally, it serves the purpose of the Amazon writers to made Matt a DR candidate. How cornvenient!

[TheDreadReader]

5 hours ago, Harad the White said:

The is not motivated by events, imho, for Thom. Rather it is the writers desire to muddy the ID of the DR.

 

 

That statement/take is what is inaccurate at least to me.   All the interactions with Thom have elements of subtext to them.   And, you can have multiple subtexts going on at the same time.

 

For example...

 

Text: Thom met Mat at the Aielman in the cage.

Subtext:  Thom saw Rand's hair when he entered the inn.  He drew both Mat's and the Audience's attention to the hair coloring of the Aiel.

 

Did Thom go to bury the Aiel because he made a connection to their hair color and happen upon Mat already there?   Did he follow Mat there?   Or, was the whole thing happenstance?  We don't actually know the answers to those questions but the subtext of their conversation includes a couple of things that we know about Rand.  So, there are multiple things going on there.

 

The same applies to when Thom talks to Rand about Mat's apparent channeling sickness.  The audience can easily make the connection between Mat, the dagger, and the sickness.  Thom may or may not know about the dagger.  Tom being correct or incorrect about Mat's sickness isn't really what is being conveyed to the viewer there.  What is being conveyed via the subtext is what are the signs of a male channeller and that is conveyed regardless of whether Thom is correct or not.

 

At the moment, the biggest vehicles for the whole "mystery of the dragon" is just Moiraine's perspective and the fact that the average viewer doesn't really know what is going on yet.  With or without them trying to maintain the mystery, the writers still have to lay these kind of foundations so the audience understands the reveal when it happens. 

 

 

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, DELTA said:

Nobody could figure out what happened until he threw a rock without using his hands. Mat's got all the signs, lad.”

"All" the signs except the one that matters. No magical rock throw, or anything like it. Matt is not shown snapping at family and friends. He was not jumping at shadows--there was a bow aimed at him. He rode a horse from town to farm successfully. It's a device to forward the aim of the Amazon writers that Matt just might be the DR.

 

Elder_H called it "heavy-handed." I call it "lame."

[Harad the White]

4 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

The same applies to when Thom talks to Rand about Mat's apparent channeling sickness. 

What was the dialog when Thom said Owyn became physically ill? There is none. This "fact" is a mass hallucination. Does "subtext" mean it was nowhere on the screen, and the writers hoped you would believe it? 

[whiskey delta]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

It's a device to forward the aim of the Amazon writers that Matt just might be the DR.

 

It says right in the quote the signs came before the rock. Cmon man ?

 

What makes you think that was the point rather than a way to make sense of Thom’s motives while revealing his character?
 

I get that the mystery is a big theme up to this point but we already know Thom is “wrong” in at least why Mat is acting weird.

 

[Gypsum]

Also going to point out that horses being skittish is evidence of.... nothing. Horses are gonna horse. They can freak out at nothing. A leaf looking at them the wrong way. A rock in the wrong place. A person popping out of nowhere. My old horse used to panic when she saw cows (are the cows channeling? Would not put it past them). One of my current two will spin and run away from someone carrying an umbrella. He also hates vehicles making unusual noises and tractors. When Mat kvetched that the mare was "afraid of her own shadow," I was like, so what. Been there. Had rides where they just go nuts for reasons known only to them.

 

Also, most of the male channellers in the books rode, and the horses could not have cared less. Suprisingly. I'm not sure what mine would think if I started setting things on fire by waving my hands around.

[Harad the White]

19 minutes ago, DELTA said:

It says right in the quote the signs came before the rock. Cmon man

Hunh? Dwayne Johnson?

[Guire]

13 minutes ago, Gypsum said:

Also going to point out that horses being skittish is evidence of.... nothing. Horses are gonna horse. They can freak out at nothing. A leaf looking at them the wrong way. A rock in the wrong place. A person popping out of nowhere. My old horse used to panic when she saw cows (are the cows channeling? Would not put it past them). One of my current two will spin and run away from someone carrying an umbrella. He also hates vehicles making unusual noises and tractors. When Mat kvetched that the mare was "afraid of her own shadow," I was like, so what. Been there. Had rides where they just go nuts for reasons known only to them.

 

Also, most of the male channellers in the books rode, and the horses could not have cared less. Suprisingly. I'm not sure what mine would think if I started setting things on fire by waving my hands around.

You obviously should have them tied in corral a few hours a day with random flame throwers going off to desensitize them.  What kind of lazy horse owner are you?  

[SandyN3K]

I’m the oddball here but I actually hate it all so far lol. It’s torture to watch because the “books did it another way” and I focus on all the wrong things. I keep scrolling when it gets too much. Still in it to see what they do with it but trying to not let it get to me. Where is Min? And just everything is wrong. A female dragon? Pfffffffttttt. I’m in pain! Lol. Sorry.

[Gypsum]

34 minutes ago, Guire said:

You obviously should have them tied in corral a few hours a day with random flame throwers going off to desensitize them.  What kind of lazy horse owner are you?  

 

LOL. One who can't channel. The Aes Sedai and Asha'man must spend some time desensitizing their horses to channelling (and gateways! and you thought getting one into a trailer was tricky). They probably start with asking them to walk over tarps, like the rest of us. On that note, I am not sure that Robert Jordan's grasp of equine behaviour was particularly brilliant, either.

[Guire]

2 minutes ago, Gypsum said:

 

LOL. One who can't channel. The Aes Sedai and Asha'man must spend some time desensitizing their horses to channelling (and gateways! and you thought getting one into a trailer was tricky). They probably start with asking them to walk over tarps, like the rest of us. On that note, I am not sure that Robert Jordan's grasp of equine behaviour was particularly brilliant, either.

When it comes to trailers all horses sing of the old blood from Two Rivers.  Not single step without a fight.  yea I think RJ was about my amateur level of horse person.  Just enough knowledge to make us dangerous.  

[Gypsum]

Yeah, the scene where Rand is in tears because after two hours of arguing, Tai'Daishar still won't go through a bloody gateway never happened.

[Agitel]

Thom didn't mention sickness himself, but the Owyn story is immediately preceded by Rand explaining Mat's sickness as something he might have picked up in Breen's Spring. So illness was part of the conversation and context, which is why people have pointed it out.

[Gypsum]

To be honest, the misdirection towards Mat as the potential male channeller had me thinking, "Eh?" More than any other change thus far.  I get why they did it, in terms of driving a plot forward for those unfamiliar with the books, but I kind of wished they hadn't.

 

If everything else comes together, I can forgive them. I forgave Peter Jackson for that scene in the Two Towers where Aragorn is dragged over a cliff by whargs and his horse rescues him. That did not need to be there. But the rest of it was so good.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Gypsum

[phoenixtrinity]

18 hours ago, Harad the White said:

Matt interacts with Thom four times in the town. First when he loses his money. Second when he goes to the Aiel body. Third when he returns to the Aiel body. Fourth when he escapes the DF. Nothing in these interactions shows any similarity to a male channeler. Next they ride horses to the farm. At the farm Matt's horse momentarily rears, but immediately calms. By coincidence there are three armed people surrounding the party at that time with arrows drawn. Nothing there in my mind.

 

Next the story of Owyn, 

"I knew another lad the same way." What same way?

"Spent half his life getting into trouble." How would he know about Matt's life, and how is that different than many teens?

"Then one day he went sour." How does that apply to Matt in the time Thom knew him?

"Animals had their hair up whenever he passed." Matt just rode a horse from the town to the farm uneventfully, and yes the horse momentarily reared when they arrived, but immediately calmed.

"Nobody could figure out what happened until he threw a rock without using his hands." That is the key, and what did Matt do that was comparable? Nothing.

"Matt's got all the signs lad."  This is a completely unjustified conclusion on Thom's part. Notice that nothing is said about physical illness.

 

Here's a couple of things from my perspective:

1) Mat's horse scared at least twice just in the time we see it, and I thought it was implied by Mat that the horse had been skittish for a while, as he says something like "This horse scares at every little thing".

 

2) Spent half his life getting into trouble could be referring to the fact Mat looted a dead body right in front of Thom, plus other unsavory acts that Thom could have heard about from Rand. It also doesn't take much of a leap to think that if Mat is willing to loot a dead body he has probably stolen other things before.

 

I'm not saying it was the BEST written scene, but I trust Thom when he says "I knew another lad the same way". I do think it's poor that he doesn't mention the sickness, as I think mentioning the channeling sickness would be a great connector there, but I am guessing they didn't explicitly mention it because eventually Rand will be sick too. That said, I'm guessing Thom did see Owyn get sick and maybe that's what prompted his response to Rand, conveniently right at the time Mat was puking.

[A Memory Of Why]

Just thinking, it's safe to say Liandrin is having some fun dreams right? About 5 special people..?

 

Nyn's obviously the 5th which makes their convo a bit more interesting.

 

Also regarding the whole "feeling the spark", kinda guessing the AS feel similar to early book Moraine - she can channel, strong too, to old though, hasn't channelled yet, not worth the trouble (bloody wilders). 

Moraine even admits to dissuading Nyn and warns her: "once she starts..."

Though I would have enjoyed a subtle moment here, say two Reds walks by Nyn arrogantly and at the same time give her a good stare down or some such.. 

 

Interested to see how the next episode plays out with Nyn.

[Harad the White]

25 minutes ago, phoenixtrinity said:

I do think it's poor that he doesn't mention the sickness, as I think mentioning the channeling sickness would be a great connector there, but I am guessing they didn't explicitly mention it because eventually Rand will be sick too.

The fact that Thom "DOESN'T mention the sickness" is the clincher for you? 

That argument is impossible to refute. If he did or if he didn't, the same cornclusion results? Eek.

[phoenixtrinity]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

The fact that Thom "DOESN'T mention the sickness" is the clincher for you? 

That argument is impossible to refute. If he did or if he didn't, the same cornclusion results? Eek.

 

I don't think I understand what you mean? I'm saying he doesn't mention the sickness, and they should have mentioned the sickness because it's the only thing from the books we know for sure can be a sign of male channeling. I'm also saying it's possible that he was alluding to Mat being sick, since he started the conversation (I thought?) right after Mat went to sick, but because it wasn't said in words by Thom I don't think that's a conclusion we can definitively make.

 

In other words, I don't hate the scene but I agree it could have been done better. Like others, I do see some of the connections Thom may have been making in character but I don't think out of character we can say with certainty what the situation was. The writing could have been better to make it much more clear.

 

Also, I like your theory on the shadows being the still trapped Forsaken.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

11 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

If it was 12 sisters of Sorilea's strength he would probably break through it easily.

except there is a minimum strength to be allowed to take the test as accepted and a higher minimum to take the test as AS - Sorilea is explicitly stated to be below threshold (as is Morgase and others) - so "the weakest AS" is a significant minimum level.

 

[Harad the White]

8 minutes ago, phoenixtrinity said:

In other words, I don't hate the scene but I agree it could have been done better.

That's my main point. Your original post threw me. A major theme of the series so far is to cornfuse the identity of DR. I like that, except the clumsy way they did it in this scene. Several people in this thread have been asserting that the Owyn story included the same sickness that Matt was evidencing, then you agreed with me that it did not, and yet you overall defended the scene. I thought to myself, ?. Rating the scene on a scale of 1-10 we probably disagree by 5. ? Thanks for joining me on the Forsaken theory.

[phoenixtrinity]

22 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

That's my main point. Your original post threw me. A major theme of the series so far is to cornfuse the identity of DR. I like that, except the clumsy way they did it in this scene. Several people in this thread have been asserting that the Owyn story included the same sickness that Matt was evidencing, then you agreed with me that it did not, and yet you overall defended the scene. I thought to myself, ?. Rating the scene on a scale of 1-10 we probably disagree by 5. ? Thanks for joining me on the Forsaken theory.

Ahh, I see. I tend to lean to the positive side of things, but I also try to make logical arguments. It's a curse in some ways and I see why you were confused hahaha.

 

Can't wait for Episode 5!

[Maximillion]

Thought it was really quite obvious Owyn was sick too from the scene.