tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[Harad the White]

10 minutes ago, expat said:

The pattern used the easiest thing it could find, Thom's guilt over Owen's gentling.

Yes. Thom feels guilty over Owen's gentling. Yes, he's bonded with Matt, and maybe Rand to a lesser extent. To me, this does not justify his complete misreading of the situation. Why not help Matt for the sake of the situation he is in? The answer is that the overriding aim of the Amazon writers is to keep Matt in the running for DR.

[Harad the White]

8 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I mean I’m sort of agreeing with you. It’s a bit heavy handed. They told instead of showing. 

Thanks. And I did go over the Owyn story above. There is no mention of Owyn being sick.

[expat]

I've been following these discussions and I have a couple of meta points that finally caused me to stop lurking and create an account.

 

1.  Mat, Rand, and Perrin are strong ta'veran.  Logic has to be suspended, at least occasionally, when they are involved.  If everything that happened to them or around them made logical sense, then it would break the book concept of ta'veran.  Are we going to argue later if 50 people get married in single day after Rand walks through a small town because it doesn't make sense?

 

2.  Aes Sedai are ignorant about much of the world.  Aes Sedai don't speak TRUTH, they say words that (they think) are literally true.  Too many discussions seem to be based on uncritical acceptance of something an Aes Sedai said.  The general rule should be to take anything an Aes Sedai says with a large grain of salt unless there is empirical show evidence that they are correct.

 

An example is the discussion about 4 ta'veran in EF.  Since none of the EF5 had done anything prior to this point to indicate they were ta'veran, the only explanation is that someone who can see ta'veran visited EF at some point and saw them.  This leaves three possible explanations:

-that person saw 4 individual ta'veran

-that person saw the three boys and also had a second viewing of one of them under difficult to see circumstances.  They thought there was a fourth, but it was a misidentification of one of the three.

-The most likely is that they saw 1-3 of the boys. but the number was corrupted through the long chain of people that told the story between the originator and Moraine's eyes and ears that relayed the story to her.  Real world examples of the game of telephone shows that stories usually get corrupted after just a couple of retellings.

 

Now the show might end up having Egwene as the fourth ta'veran, but until that happens, the original line is easily explained without breaking lore.

 

Another example is the fact that there were female false dragons.  The general population believes that the DR will be male because LTT was a man, they are afraid of men channelers, the prophecies say that the DR will save the world while breaking it again, and finally, they don't think about gender issues so the idea it could be a women never crosses their mind.  We also know that the pattern spins out false dragons (the number of false dragons increases the nearer the Dark One is to touching the world, and all the false dragons stopped once Rand revealed himself because there is no need for them at that point). Consequently, the pattern only spins out male false dragons.  This does not preclude men and women declaring themselves as the DR for their own reasons (e.g., insanity, power grab).  The Aes Sedai have no clue which false dragons are spun out by the pattern and which are deluded people, so they all go on the list.  The reality is that there are two lists, the false dragons spun out by the pattern who are all male, and the list of self-proclaimed false dragon who are either sex. 

[Pandemonium]

why would a darkfriend call a fade on 2 broke farmboys?  I mean just from that thom only has  a limited number of conclusions 

[Ploodie]

8 minutes ago, expat said:

 

 

Another example is the fact that there were female false dragons.  The general population believes that the DR will be male because LTT was a man, they are afraid of men channelers, the prophecies say that the DR will save the world while breaking it again, and finally, they don't think about gender issues so the idea it could be a women never crosses their mind.  We also know that the pattern spins out false dragons (the number of false dragons increases the nearer the Dark One is to touching the world, and all the false dragons stopped once Rand revealed himself because there is no need for them at that point). Consequently, the pattern only spins out male false dragons.  This does not preclude men and women declaring themselves as the DR for their own reasons (e.g., insanity, power grab).  The Aes Sedai have no clue which false dragons are spun out by the pattern and which are deluded people, so they all go on the list.  The reality is that there are two lists, the false dragons spun out by the pattern who are all male, and the list of self-proclaimed false dragon who are either sex. 

I tend to doubt any of this was on the mind of the writers. I think, just to say it and not to take a side on it, that its more about inclusion at this point in our cultural zeitgeist. Original WOT was written in a different time when conversations about gender were non-existent in the general population. I think they are probably trying to stay ahead of any potential controversy by just opening everything up to any gender. And again, not saying that is right or wrong.. just my theory.

[Pandemonium]

cant wait for them to bolster lan next

Edited November 28, 2021 by Pandemonium

[expat]

Quote

To me, this does not justify his complete misreading of the situation. 

Do you agree that not all things that happen around ta'veran as strong as Rand are logical?

[Harad the White]

13 minutes ago, expat said:

The reality is that there are two lists, the false dragons spun out by the pattern who are all male, and the list of self-proclaimed false dragon who are either sex. 

The Amazon series says that past Dragons were of either sex. Why the pattern would discriminate with one variety of FDs is not explainable in that world.

[expat]

Quote

I tend to doubt any of this was on the mind of the writers. I think, just to say it and not to take a side on it, that its more about inclusion at this point in our cultural zeitgeist

You are probably right.  This was more a thought process for me to see if there were potentially logical explanations for apparently lore breaking events.  Since there was in this case, I can ignore the issue entirely (at least until the show does something more with it).  Since false dragons other than Logain or Taim were just names mentioned a couple of times in the book, it is unlikely that anything further will come of it. 

[Harad the White]

12 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

why would a darkfriend call a fade on 2 broke farmboys?  I mean just from that thom only has  a limited number of conclusions

There is no doubt that Thom is helping Matt and Rand because the Dark Side is after them. The issue is why? Is there any evidence that the only targets of fades are male channelers? What evidence did either Matt or Rand show of channeling, aside from the bogus Owyn story, invented for that very reason, but not tied to the events on-screen.

[TotemicGoblin]

On 11/27/2021 at 1:12 PM, Mnemosyne said:

 

I have mixed feelings about the Tinkers. I would have totally agreed with you after episode 3 but for some reason I felt they came across a bit better in episode 4. Maybe because I loved Ila's dialogue. The colours seemed brighter, too. (I saw someone else made that comment as well).

 

I agree they're leaning too heavily towards the hippie vibe with the dreadlocks, it made them too cliché.

 

They probably introduced the Amish thing so that their children are portrayed as having more of a "choice" rather than "forcing" them into the Way of the Leaf. Perhaps they are suggesting that these are the same people as the Amish, in a later turning of the Wheel? But I feel they deserve to be their own thing.

 

Agree that the dancing was disappointingly asexual, I think they wanted to tone down the "women dance for the men" aspect, but they could have just made EVERYONE dance a little bit sexily... ?

It’s the other way around. Our age currently is the first age. So really it’s right that the tinkers are based off of something we have. They should have been more of a Gypsie vibe crossed with hippies imo. Belly dancing would have fit perfectly with the type of dancing described in the books. So a combination of several things is what it seems like Jordan based them off of.

Edited November 28, 2021 by CaddySedai
Fixed it :)

[CaddySedai]

10 minutes ago, TotemicGoblin said:

 

Oops on the other one I meant to quote this!

 

Took care of it for ya!

[Agitel]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

 

Remind me of the dialog of Owyn getting sick.

 

The fans of the show want Thom to be motivated to think that Matt is a channeler. And that Thom thinks Rand is not a channeler. That's understandable. But wanting it, is not the same as motivating it on-screen.

 

Thom feels like he is seeing the signs Owyn had before Owyn's first channeling event.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Agitel

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

Thom feels like he is seeing the signs Owyn

The only sign he actually sees on-screen is that the horse rears once at the farm. This is after Matt has ridden the horse from the town without being thrown, and during the time that the three farmers armed with bows surround the party. After that Matt continues unimpeded with his horse. People here have said things like "Owyn was sick." That was not in Thom's story. What change is there between Matt and Thom, shown on-screen, from when he meets him in town to when they arrive at the farm? Answer: not a single thing is shown. The story of Owyn, is entirely unrelated to Matt, except for the one incident of the horse rearing. If a single animal, a single time, shows signs of discomfort, is that the sign that one is a male channeler? Meanwhile Rand, the DR, is right beside Thom and he sees nada. There IS a reason for Thom's conclusion about Matt and I've said it before.

[Kudzu]

Bit late to the party on this one.

 

Overall a really great episode, but I do have a couple of nitpicks. First for the good though.

 

Enjoyed Perrin and Egwene with the Tinkers. I like that they're taking the time to let us understand who the Tinkers are. Really liking Aram in the show, much more than in the books.

 

Rand, Mat and Thom, was awesome and heart breaking. Loved the Birgitte doll. The Fade fights exactly how I pictured them in my head. Makes me really hope we get a Lan vs Fade this season.

 

The Logain plotline, while great, is the one with which I have all my nitpicks. All the character moments were really good, loving the building of Nynaeve and Lan relationship.

 

The bits I didn't like so much:

 

A bit of clunky exposition, my least favourite was Karene explaining to Moiraine that Liandrin wouldn't drop her shield until Moiraine's was in place. It pulled me right out of the show and I actually said "really?" out loud (in a room by myself). I mean sure Mo as a blue probably doesn't have much experience shielding men so probably did need the reminder, just didn't feel natural to me.

 

The battle with Logain's army felt a bit underdone and tactically strange from the Aes Sedai. I'm sure this was just budgetary constraints, but it is what it is.

 

Nynaeve's big healing moment, while awesome, did grate against my book lore nerve, which meant it wasn't as impactfull to me as it should have been.

 

Logain floating in the air while being gentled was a bit cheesy and overly dramatic, I would have preferred he be forced to his knees, or pinned against the wall.

 

 

[Agitel]

11 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

The only sign he actually sees on-screen is that the horse rears once at the farm. This is after Matt has ridden the horse from the town without being thrown, and during the time that the three farmers armed with bows surround the party. After that Matt continues unimpeded with his horse. People here have said things like "Owyn was sick." That was not in Thom's story. What change is there between Matt and Thom, shown on-screen, from when he meets him in town to when they arrive at the farm? Answer: not a single thing is shown. The story of Owyn, is entirely unrelated to Matt, except for the one incident of the horse rearing. If a single animal, a single time, shows signs of discomfort, is that the sign that one is a male channeler? Meanwhile Rand, the DR, is right beside Thom and he sees nada. There IS a reason for Thom's conclusion about Matt and I've said it before.

 

Mat's irritability and personality change.

[JaimAybara]

Thom’s interactions began with Mat in episode 3. So, although there were only a few signs in episode 4 who’s to say he didn’t pick up on some things in episode 3 too? 

- Over the top Irritability 

- Acting out / personality shift 

- Getting Sick 

- Paranoia  

- Horses being skittish 

- Wandering off 

- Immediately clutching a dagger when a farmer stops them. 

 

Also, we get the backstory of Owyn which contrasted with this gives us the impression that he saw similarities whether or not we did. Furthermore, when they walk in on him in the farmhouse regardless of the fade killing the family their suspicions are widely confirmed with his extremely strange behavior. 

Edited November 28, 2021 by JaimAybara

[Harad the White]

17 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Mat's irritability and personality change.

Please cite me the instances of that on-screen before the Owyn story.

[whiskey delta]

@JaimAybara how sure are we that is was the Fade?

 

I thought so too, at first, but I’m wondering why they’d kill the family when they could have gone straight for the boys? Seems unnecessary but then again: evil. So I’m not sure. If there was something mentioned earlier in the thread then I haven’t read it yet ?

[JaimAybara]

Just now, DELTA said:

@JaimAybara how sure are we that is was the Fade?

 

I thought so too, at first, but I’m wondering why they’d kill the family when they could have gone straight for the boys? Seems unnecessary but then again: evil. So I’m not sure. If there was something mentioned earlier in the thread then I haven’t read it yet ?

Fair point, but that would only double down their concerns that he is a male channeler. 

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

Thom’s interactions began with Mat in episode 3. So, although there were only a few signs in episode 4 who’s to say he didn’t pick up on some things in episode 3 too? 

- Over the top Irritability 

- Acting out / personality shift 

- Getting Sick 

- Paranoia  

- Horses being skittish 

- Wandering off 

- Immediately clutching a dagger when a farmer stops them. 

 

Also, we get the backstory of Owyn which contrasted with this gives us the impression that he saw similarities whether or not we did. Furthermore, when they walk in on him in the farmhouse regardless of the fade killing the family their suspicions are widely confirmed with his extremely strange behavior. 

Making a list of what you would like to have seen is not the same as showing it on screen. Furthermore Owyn did not get sick in Thom's story.

 

Over the top irritability? When?

Acting out/personality shift? When?

Paranoia? When?

Wandering off? After or during the Owyn story. Since when is going outside a sign of channeling?

Immediately clutching a dagger? It's called self-defense in a world gone mad.

[JaimAybara]

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Making a list of what you would like to have seen is not the same as showing it on screen. Furthermore Owyn did not get sick in Thom's story.

 

Over the top irritability? When?

Acting out/personality shift? When?

Paranoia? When?

Wandering off? After or during the Owyn story. Since when is going outside a sign of channeling?

Immediately clutching a dagger? It's called self-defense in a world gone mad.

When he goes outside or walks off isn’t a “just a sec fellas” with a grin, it’s his mannerisms, tone, and overall demeanor. He acts irritable and distant while mucking the stable only to wander off. Then when Rand wakes up he and Thom find him missing yet again. Which then leads to them finding him amid a dead family. I mean, could they have done better? Sure. But I thought it got the job done over a couple episodes. If you didn’t that’s fair. 

[whiskey delta]

11 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Making a list of what you would like to have seen is not the same as showing it on screen. Furthermore Owyn did not get sick in Thom's story.

 

Over the top irritability? When?

Acting out/personality shift? When?

Paranoia? When?

Wandering off? After or during the Owyn story. Since when is going outside a sign of channeling?

Immediately clutching a dagger? It's called self-defense in a world gone mad.

These happened on screen.

 

The paranoia is seen with how he’s clutching the dagger while Rand tries to deescalate. This comes after seeing the horse acting skittish and a reference to it being troublesome up to that point.

 

Mat snaps on Rand in the stall mucking scene which is soon followed by Thom having the talk about Mat to Rand.

 

Mat also looks visibly ill and his demeanor overall is sour. There are plenty of visual indicators to support Thom’s theory - wrong or not.

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

Then when Rand wakes up he and Thom find him missing yet again. Which then leads to them finding him amid a dead family.

This (quote) happens after the Owyn story, when Thom has already concluded that Matt is a channeler. Matt shirking work? That happens in town in the bar. Matt with a grin? That happens in Two Rivers even before he finds the Dagger. You are clutching at straws.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, DELTA said:

Mat also looks visibly ill and his demeanor overall is sour.

Visibly ill is NOT in the Owyn story. Looking sour? A sure sign of channeling. Thom said that Owyn's life turned sour. Clutching a dagger a moment after being threatened by an armed bowman. That's a channeler for sure!