tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[MasterAblar]

1 hour ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

In book lore, all men can't break out of shield being actively held by 13 sisters that sets an upper limit.  My statement that Logain is at least as powerful as 2 Aes Sedai sets a lower limit which establishes a range for  power levels.  Since 2 is the lower limit and 12 is the upper limit, he would fall somewhere in between them. 

 

The fact that the show only showed 2 and occasionally 3 sisters holding his shield has as much to do with budget (every actor adds costs) but as long as they remain consistent with having at least 2 sisters holding the shield they are not breaking lore in a relative sense.   

 

In the books, RJ could specify absolute numbers because they don't cost any money to write.  The TV show has to be more strategic in that it shows. 

 

I mean it depends entirely on the strength of those holding the shield. Aes Sedai vary wildy in terms of strength, and those holding the shield over Logain were some of the strongest. If Lanfear had a shield on Logain he would never be able to break it. If it was 12 sisters of Sorilea's strength he would probably break through it easily.

 

I honestly don't think it had anything to do with budge. Having a handful of non speaking extras holding the shield wouldn't have cost them much. The whole point was for Logain to break free.

 

I honestly don't think it was at all in contradiction with the books. Rand couldn't break through 6 whose strength isn't specified but are almost certainly weaker than Moiraine, Kerene, and possibly Liandrin. He had to wait for the shield to only be actively held by 3 to break it. And he's slightly stronger than Logain. Seems fairly consistent with the books to me, particuarly since its almost certain Logain was just biding his time (I think it's extremely unlikely Liandrin would have willingly lowered her shield at that moment).

[Harad the White]

6 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I think it's extremely unlikely Liandrin would have willingly lowered her shield at that moment).

She's pretty tricksey. ?

[Gothic Flame]

38 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Doesn't look the same

Looks like Aginor...just going off a description from the book.

[MasterAblar]

11 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

She's pretty tricksey. ?

 

She'd also be pretty dumb if that was her plan. Logain could have killed her in an instant while she was down.

[MasterAblar]

3 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Looks like Aginor...just going off a description from the book.

 

It's definitely Baalzamon. Same clothes, same gloves, same backround, same hand over Egwene's mouth. Only thing missing is the fire in the eyes.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, MasterAblar said:

It's definitely Baalzamon. Same clothes, same gloves, same backround, same hand over Egwene's mouth. Only thing missing is the fire in the eyes.

Missing from the picture. The fire is on the screen in the Amazon episode.

[Harad the White]

Another question from an inquiring mind:

Who/what is Perrin chopping in Rand's dream/hallucination sequence. The same one with Baalazmon.

[MasterAblar]

Isn't it Leyla?

 

[Harad the White]

11 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Logain could have killed her in an instant while she was down.

She's also pretty brave (according to her). She says she is willing to burn herself out to gentle Logain.

[WhiteVeils]

14 hours ago, Zarathustra said:

Taking Logain's description of R (when he saw him on the walls in Cam and started laughing) and applying it to Nyn was terrible.

 

It's been a while since I read the books but, did the girls not learn how to detonate bands of earth after they were nicked by the Seanchan?

That's when Egwene learned it. It doesn't mean that no Aes Sedai could do it. That wasn't considered one of the 'lost' magics.

 

[MasterAblar]

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

She's also pretty brave (according to her). She says she is willing to burn herself out to gentle Logain.

 

So you think she intentionally let Logain out, knowing he could easily kill her if she did that, because she assumes he will be gentled by the other sisters after? Even though Liandrin is the one who wants him gentled in the first place and therefore couldn't push for it anyway when she's dead? And the fact that she's a darkfriend who don't exactly distinguish themselves by their sense of self sacrifice?

 

Seems to me that Logain holding back previously is the far more logical explanation, but to each their own.

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Seems to me that Logain holding back previously is the far more logical explanation, but to each their own.

I lean more towards your explanation, but Liandrin is "a snake."

[MasterAblar]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

I lean more towards your explanation, but Liandrin is "a snake."

 

Fair enough, it's not impossible, although I think the execution was rather poor in that case. I'm honestly more suspicious of Moiraine. Her arrival right as he escaped is incredibly well timed.

[Harad the White]

5 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Her arrival right as he escaped is incredibly well timed.

Good point. And also, death is not the be-all-and-end-all in that world. Maybe Liandrin thought "Even if I die, the Dark One will give me brownie points for my next life."

[Zarathustra]

20 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

That's when Egwene learned it. It doesn't mean that no Aes Sedai could do it. That wasn't considered one of the 'lost' magics.

 

I don't recall anyone using it other than the Seanchan and the lads from the BT.  I think it's another instance of the showrunners doing as they wish with the source material.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Zarathustra

[MasterAblar]

Women aren't usualy at their strongest with fire and earth. That being said the damane are all women and they use it. It's not like Egwene would have been getting training on how to fight and destroy things as a novice.

 

Just because it isn't stated that the Aes Sedai used those weaves doesn't mean they didn't. 

[2RiversFan]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

OK. Thom chooses between Rand and Matt due to a lot of important stuff off-screen. That's a get-out-of-logic card.

I don't think it was off screen, even if off screen things may have further enhanced his view.  

Here is what we know or should infer:

- Thom heard Dana's monologue about how the Dark One was looking for one of the "5", and that one of them is the DR (it is interesting that only the dark side has included 5 - presumably including Nyneave... Moiraine in show has only mentioned "4").
- When Thom first relates the story of Owyn, he explicitly says that "None of us knew or understood what had caused the changes in him, until he threw a rock without moving his arm".  

 

These two things show us that Thom had his senses on high alert due to understanding that darkfriends are on the lookout for the DR.  He then notices many similarities between Owyn and Mat and concludes that Mat can channel.

I think it is TOTALLY believable.

I'm with you regarding Logain being manipulated by Forsaken, but not on this one.  The show casts believable and logical misdirection toward Mat being the DR.  It may have been more powerful and understandable had Alex Villaume been able to join the cast from Episode 1 and had more screen time to establish his (Thom's) brilliance.

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, 2RiversFan said:

He then notices many similarities between Owyn and Mat and concludes that Mat can channel.

I went thru every ON-SCREEN event between Matt and Thom. I went thru the Owyn story. There is nothing to convince me that Thom should conclude Matt is a channeler and Rand is not.

[Gothic Flame]

51 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

She'd also be pretty dumb if that was her plan. Logain could have killed her in an instant while she was down.

Was the whitecloak Byar really interested in setting Perrin and Egwene free when he dropped a sharp rock at their feet ostensibly to escape? Or was it just a trap to kill them as they were fleeing?

Still, I agree on your point. Liandrin would be dead in a blink.

[Agitel]

I felt like Mat could have been a bit more cynical/paranoid/on edge when they first road up to the farm.

[Ploodie]

3 hours ago, Harad the White said:

I saw no struggle. She wanted to gentle Logain at the beginning, middle, and end. She may have even relaxed her shield with Kerene, so that Logain could escape, and then she could implement her plan to gentle him.

I probably worded that poorly .. I meant struggling as in trying to convince the others that it's the right thing to do.

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, Harad the White said:

OK. Thom chooses between Rand and Matt due to a lot of important stuff off-screen. That's a get-out-of-logic card.

I get what your argument is. And they could maybe have used one more scene of Mat behaving strangely - snapping at Rand or doing something else that made him appear paranoid. 
 

But it’s not a huge glaring hole. Mat’s dialogue about the horse makes it clear he’s been having trouble with the animal for the length of their trip. (And we don’t know how long they’ve been on the road.) Thom’s dialogue references Mar having a poor attitude that reminds him of Owyn. 
 

Mat getting sick also reminds Thom of Owyn and so he draws an incorrect conclusion based on his own experiences.
 

It’s a bit heavy-handed, but it’s far from terrible. 

[expat]

One thing that is being ignored in this discussion is that Thom was dealing with two ta'veran who desperately needed Thom to bond with them to protect them moving forward.  The pattern used the easiest thing it could find, Thom's guilt over Owen's gentling.  Since logic and ta'veran don't really mix, it is in character for Thom to be wrong about who is channeling.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Mat getting sick also reminds Thom of Owyn and so he draws an incorrect conclusion based on his own experiences.

 

Remind me of the dialog of Owyn getting sick.

 

The fans of the show want Thom to be motivated to think that Matt is a channeler. And that Thom thinks Rand is not a channeler. That's understandable. But wanting it, is not the same as motivating it on-screen.

[Elder_Haman]

I mean I’m sort of agreeing with you. It’s a bit heavy handed. They told instead of showing. 
 

But it’s not all kinds of awful is my point. And it’s getting the job done. None of my non-book readers have pegged Rand as the Dragon. From a misdirection point, it was effective.