tv show spoilers S1E1: Leavetaking

[TheAngryDruid]

On 11/19/2021 at 9:14 AM, Beidomon said:

 

Can’t believe I’m the guy that’s gonna defend this stuff, but the change makes sense unless you want to reveal the DR in the first episode. They can do it later as a flashback maybe. 

 

 

Maybe. Or maybe Nynaeve is just full of it. This is what Nynaeve was told - not necessarily what happened. A lot of women are turned away because they are way too weak. Something Mo might explain later. 

 

 

I was very skeptical, but Pike works for me. She brings the needed gravity to the role. I like her. The channeling looks great to me. The bath scene was actually really good. It implies they are intimate - and some AS are intimate with their warders - but to the folks who, it just demonstrates how closely bonded these two are. They basically two halves of the same person. Taking a bath together would be no big deal. And the warming of the water was a nice touch. 

 

 

You’ll get it in E2, and it falls extremely flat. The monologue worked great in the books but it’s pretty terrible here. 
 

 

Well yeah, the leavetaking felt extremely tacked on and basically sucked. Lowest point of the episode. 

 

 

Was it though? I didn’t mind any of these additions (except for the massive “it could be a boy or girl” change, which is terrible). The additions didn’t take long and they worked. It all added up to a pretty great episode except for the stupid leavetaking.

 

Just because Rand is an orphan does not make him the DR. Anymore rhan Perrin being a wolfbrother did for him. And, of course, if you do not know Mo is looking for the DR at this point (which you shouldn't), it ruins nothing. 

 

The problem with Mo's character is not the acting, it is the stupid stuff she says (and Lan complaining about the water not being hot enough, seriously?). Both totally out of character. 

 

The Manetheren speech, of course, would work better in Emind's Field (is this what Aemon's blood has come to?). I may not make it to episode 2. I may have seen enough if this garbage. Episode 1 was BAD. 

 

I could have done better. And I have zero writing or TV experience. 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by TheAngryDruid

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, TheAngryDruid said:

Lan complaining about the water not being hot enough, seriously?

I'm baffled by why this bothers people. Why can't Lan enjoy a nice, hot bath after a few grueling days on the road? Is there something ... unmanly ... about liking warm water?

 

9 minutes ago, TheAngryDruid said:

I may not make it to episode 2.

May you find water and shade.

[DojoToad]

Several people have a problem with Lan asking for the water to be hotter.

 

I love a hot bath during the fall or winter after working in the yard, a long run/walk, or just to ease sore muscles - getting old.  I get it as hot as possible - just short of scalding.

 

After a long ride chasing ghosts with Moiraine, I'm sure it would feel great - he isn't as young as he used to be.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, DojoToad said:

I get it as hot as possible - just short of scalding.

Me too. Nothing better than a nice, hot bath.

[DaddyFinn]

7 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Several people have a problem with Lan asking for the water to be hotter.

Several people (not you) have a problem with everything. Lan was just asking for a nice, hot bath for a change. Nothing wrong with that. No matter how much the Borderlanders take pride in their miserable weather and living conditions lol

[Vartija]

Heh, I don't think wanting a hot bath is unfitting for Lan. That being said, I would have had them in separate baths and skipped the levity entirely. Lan is pretty dour at this point in the book, and I think he's more of the type who wouldn't burden Moiraine with such a trivial ask. The setting itself was ok but I would have used that scene a bit differently.

[JenniferL]

The bath scene is the show saying “this is not Game of Thrones”. Two attractive people in a hot tub together and someone says “could be hotter”. On GOT sexy times would immediately follow. Instead Moiraine just heats up the water and they talk shop. 

[jeffreycwagner]

Brandon has summed up my issue with the changes to Perrin:

 

Quote

Biggest thing he and I disagreed on was Perrin's wife. I realize that there is a good opportunity here for Perrin to be shown with rage issues, and to be afraid of the potential beast inside of him. I liked that idea, but didn't like it being a wife for multiple reasons. First off, it feels a lot like the disposable wife trope (AKA Woman in the Fridge.) Beyond that, I think the trauma of having killed your wife is so huge, the story this is telling can't realistically deal with it in a way that is responsible. Perrin killing his wife then going off on an adventure really bothers me, even still. I have faith that the writers won't treat it lightly, but still. That kind of trauma, dealt with realistically and responsibly, is really difficult for an adventure series to deal with.

He killed his wife, it will be hard to have Book Perrin after this.   And, I do not know enough at this point to have faith the writers will recover from this.

[TheAngryDruid]

29 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I'm baffled by why this bothers people. Why can't Lan enjoy a nice, hot bath after a few grueling days on the road? Is there something ... unmanly ... about liking warm water?

 

May you find water and shade.

 

The whole scene is terrible. Like most scenes I've witnessed so far. 

 

1) They should not be taking a bath together in the first place. Mo is Blue, not Green. And Cairheinin to boot. She'd never invite him into her bath, and as a Malkieri, he'd never accept without invitation. 

 

2) He is a stoic badasss, not some whining douche asking her to make the water hotter. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, TheAngryDruid said:

He is a stoic badasss, not some whining douche asking her to make the water hotter.

Stoic people famously hate hot water.

[ArrylT]

6 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

The bath scene is the show saying “this is not Game of Thrones”. Two attractive people in a hot tub together and someone says “could be hotter”. On GOT sexy times would immediately follow. Instead Moiraine just heats up the water and they talk shop. 

 

As mentioned many pages ago - this scene was at first jarring for me.   I was definitely one of those who was like "why does he want the water hot".

 

I have since done, if not a 180 at least a 90 degree change.  ?

 

Apart from that, I have found several different perspectives from which to look at the scene from - which is one of the reasons I have come around - something so basic can still be so subtle.

 

Showcasing familiarity & ease of being with each other

Showcasing difference from GOT

Showcasing a more private side of Lan 

Showcasing a positive slight benefit of channeling

Showcasing a very subtle humour - I am still torn if Moiraine had picked up on his first request and was pretending not to understand or not.  

 

I even think that Moiraines comment about EF having tubs can be taken as a very subtle reminder of 

 

(a) the hygiene of WOT

 

some people have in their reviews said the world looks too clean - well thats because it is world where many people are focused on being clean.

 

(b) That this world is more advanced / civilised than Medieval (so many reviews call it medieval ?)

 

Its a world trending down into decay not trending up into modernization 

 

(c) not to judge a book by its cover - ie The Two Rivers may not be as bumpkin as expected

 

All in all in one little short scene so much can be extracted if we want to do a deep dive.

[DojoToad]

30 minutes ago, Vartija said:

Heh, I don't think wanting a hot bath is unfitting for Lan. That being said, I would have had them in separate baths and skipped the levity entirely. Lan is pretty dour at this point in the book, and I think he's more of the type who wouldn't burden Moiraine with such a trivial ask. The setting itself was ok but I would have used that scene a bit differently.

Things are changing if you hadn't noticed. ?

 

No more dour Lan.  He was downright playful in that scene.  A little shocking, but he was in private with his Aes Sedai - so okay to let the guard down.

[DojoToad]

43 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Me too. Nothing better than a nice, hot bath.

I have to warn the family because I turn the water heater to max - don't want them scalding themselves trying to rinse a dish.

[JenniferL]

If your skin isn’t red and sloughing off, are you even clean bro? 

[SinisterDeath]

50 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

If your skin isn’t red and sloughing off, are you even clean bro? 

Can confirm.

[LighterThanA Feather]

Don't usually post things but received EOTW when it originally came out in 1990 and have been a fan since. Watching the series on TV motivated me enough to comment. 

 

My struggle is with purism and change - both of which have merit. We all know book to TV is difficult and things have to change but those loyal to the books scream at major changes and I often agree.

 

The Good: Pike is spot on for Moraine, though her dialogue isn't great she performs it well even while being a bit taller. Some of the other actors do well too (Rand, Thom, myrdraal, support actors). The cinematic scenery and clothing are great and has a large world feeling. The magic effects once evoked are great. Much better than the kiddie Shannara series attempt. 

 

The Bad: Rushed timeline is the bad. Would have liked more episodes with a deeper dive rather than a splash and dash. The trollocs are close but still a miss for me - a bit too young adultish. The magic conjuring is a bit too theatrical and animated - the point of the One Power is you could be tied up and locked in a box and still channel - you don't need to dance around and gesticulate. 

 

The Ugly: The series obviously hired some of the SJWs from the Star Wars ilk. I like the WoT because the entire world has plenty of diversity all over the place and didn't need help. Kick ass women and men, kick ass cultures of all different colors and beliefs but no lets change it up and ram it down peoples throats. A small village of a few hundred on the side of mountain in the middle of nowhere has every race known... well because that's realistic. Had they given the series time the makers would have had all peoples taking part and contributing without the need for forcing it. Perrin married?? and kills his wife by stupid accident who apparently is a kick ass fighter while being a blacksmith...'s.....wife? Able Cauthon a cheating a-hole? Mat all but a complete messed up loser and thief? A group of woman encircle and kill a trolloc with pitch forks - roger that - no men do the same? Nynaeve tracks down Lan and team - okay check - Nynaeve tracks down Lan sneaks up on him and threatens his life with a sword to his throat - are you fricking kidding? The best and likely most talented warder and swordman in history on the run and on full alert is at the mercy of a 20 year old who likely hasn't held a sword before - shades of Rey beating Kylo with zero training. A darkfriend barkeep in the middle of nowhere grabs Rand's heron blade and is lethal in a back room while ... no one is watching over the tavern? C'mon.

 

My summary: Will watch it and enjoy a good portion of it because Covid starved for new entertainment, and a decent overall attempt made, but will still detest unnecessary, lazy or forced changes.

[Windigo]

On 11/20/2021 at 9:19 AM, Joe B said:

Then it doesn't make sense for Rafe to say they "aged them up" for the show. During the second and third watchings, I still felt like I was watching a CW show during the scenes with Egwene and Rand.

No it doesn't because so much of the hero's journey of al 5EF's  is some of that growth from naive and young to who they become.  Plot wise all of the changes work to bring us along sooner to the future struggles and plot arcs, what they do not do is bring us along on the character growth. They are trying to play them aged up and still naive, but have only really aged up Egwene in years.  (and I think a few years difference in Nynaeve) 


 

[DojoToad]

16 hours ago, TheAngryDruid said:

 

The whole scene is terrible. Like most scenes I've witnessed so far. 

 

1) They should not be taking a bath together in the first place. Mo is Blue, not Green. And Cairheinin to boot. She'd never invite him into her bath, and as a Malkieri, he'd never accept without invitation. 

 

2) He is a stoic badasss, not some whining douche asking her to make the water hotter. 

I agree to some extent with point one.  But after traveling the world for 20 years with a borderlander maybe she has loosened up.  Would still have preferred separate tubs - but that is just the prude in me.

 

Point two - you're just wrong.  Hot baths are the bomb!

 

13 hours ago, LighterThanA Feather said:

Don't usually post things but received EOTW when it originally came out in 1990 and have been a fan since. Watching the series on TV motivated me enough to comment. 

 

My struggle is with purism and change - both of which have merit. We all know book to TV is difficult and things have to change but those loyal to the books scream at major changes and I often agree.

 

The Good: Pike is spot on for Moraine, though her dialogue isn't great she performs it well even while being a bit taller. Some of the other actors do well too (Rand, Thom, myrdraal, support actors). The cinematic scenery and clothing are great and has a large world feeling. The magic effects once evoked are great. Much better than the kiddie Shannara series attempt. 

 

The Bad: Rushed timeline is the bad. Would have liked more episodes with a deeper dive rather than a splash and dash. The trollocs are close but still a miss for me - a bit too young adultish. The magic conjuring is a bit too theatrical and animated - the point of the One Power is you could be tied up and locked in a box and still channel - you don't need to dance around and gesticulate. 

 

The Ugly: The series obviously hired some of the SJWs from the Star Wars ilk. I like the WoT because the entire world has plenty of diversity all over the place and didn't need help. Kick ass women and men, kick ass cultures of all different colors and beliefs but no lets change it up and ram it down peoples throats. A small village of a few hundred on the side of mountain in the middle of nowhere has every race known... well because that's realistic. Had they given the series time the makers would have had all peoples taking part and contributing without the need for forcing it. Perrin married?? and kills his wife by stupid accident who apparently is a kick ass fighter while being a blacksmith...'s.....wife? Able Cauthon a cheating a-hole? Mat all but a complete messed up loser and thief? A group of woman encircle and kill a trolloc with pitch forks - roger that - no men do the same? Nynaeve tracks down Lan and team - okay check - Nynaeve tracks down Lan sneaks up on him and threatens his life with a sword to his throat - are you fricking kidding? The best and likely most talented warder and swordman in history on the run and on full alert is at the mercy of a 20 year old who likely hasn't held a sword before - shades of Rey beating Kylo with zero training. A darkfriend barkeep in the middle of nowhere grabs Rand's heron blade and is lethal in a back room while ... no one is watching over the tavern? C'mon.

 

My summary: Will watch it and enjoy a good portion of it because Covid starved for new entertainment, and a decent overall attempt made, but will still detest unnecessary, lazy or forced changes.

Looks like bad/ugly outweigh good about 3 to 1 for you. So how exactly will you sit and enjoy a good portion of it?  Why waste your time?

 

If you read a lot of what I have written here, you'll see that I agree with most of your gripes.  Difference being I won't waste my time with the show if it doesn't turn around quickly.  Life is too short and there is too much out there that I know I enjoy - and new things to discover as well.

 

10 hours ago, Windigo said:

No it doesn't because so much of the hero's journey of al 5EF's  is some of that growth from naive and young to who they become.  Plot wise all of the changes work to bring us along sooner to the future struggles and plot arcs, what they do not do is bring us along on the character growth. They are trying to play them aged up and still naive, but have only really aged up Egwene in years.  (and I think a few years difference in Nynaeve) 


 

Correct.  I know plenty of 20 and 25 year olds that are very naive.  Hell, I'm 52 and am still naive in some areas of life.

[ArrylT]

4 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Point two - you're just wrong.  Hot baths are the bomb!

 

 

 

Yes.  I've just done another dive into the Lan with Moiraine bath scene.    And I discovered that while in Baerlon Lan was looking forward to a hot bath, and there is (apologies for the large book spoiler quote)

 

Spoiler

“Well,” the Warder said, rubbing his hands, “this is what I have been waiting for.” Ara picked up a bucket, but Lan waved it away. “No, I will see to myself.” Dropping his cloak on one of the stools, he bundled the bath attendant out of the room, despite the fellow's protests, and shut the door firmly after him. He waited there a moment, his head cocked to listen, and when he turned back to the rest of them his voice was stony and his eyes stabbed at Mat. “It's a good thing I got back when I did, farmboy. Don't you listen to what you are told?”

“I didn't do anything,” Mat protested. “I was just going to tell him about the Trollocs, not about ... ” He stopped, and leaned back from the Warder's eyes, flat against the back of the tub.

“Don't talk about Trollocs,” Lan said grimly. “Don't even think about Trollocs.” With an angry snort he began filling himself a bathtub. “Blood and ashes, you had better remember, the Dark One has eyes and ears where you least expect. And if the Children of the Light heard Trollocs were after you, they'd be burning to get their hands on you. To them, it would be as much as naming you Darkfriend. It may not be what you are used to, but until we get where we are going, keep your trust small unless Mistress Alys or I tell you differently.” At his emphasis on the name Moiraine was using, Mat flinched.

“There was something that fellow wouldn't tell us,” Rand said. “Something he thought was trouble, but he wouldn't say what it was.”

“Probably the Children,” Lan said, pouring more hot water into his tub. “Most people consider them trouble. Some don't, though, and he did not know you well enough to risk it. You might have gone running to the Whitecloaks, for all he knew.”

 

 

This completes my 180 on my initial reaction from the bath scene.    The show writers & showrunner, whom I assumed knew WOT inside & out - just proved it to me.  

[SinisterDeath]

3 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

This completes my 180 on my initial reaction from the bath scene.    The show writers & showrunner, whom I assumed knew WOT inside & out - just proved it to me.  

If it's any consolation, I forgot Lan ever spoke to Mat in the first book... and I read that one not to terribly long ago.

[DojoToad]

17 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

 

Yes.  I've just done another dive into the Lan with Moiraine bath scene.    And I discovered that while in Baerlon Lan was looking forward to a hot bath, and there is (apologies for the large book spoiler quote)

 

  Hide contents

“Well,” the Warder said, rubbing his hands, “this is what I have been waiting for.” Ara picked up a bucket, but Lan waved it away. “No, I will see to myself.” Dropping his cloak on one of the stools, he bundled the bath attendant out of the room, despite the fellow's protests, and shut the door firmly after him. He waited there a moment, his head cocked to listen, and when he turned back to the rest of them his voice was stony and his eyes stabbed at Mat. “It's a good thing I got back when I did, farmboy. Don't you listen to what you are told?”

“I didn't do anything,” Mat protested. “I was just going to tell him about the Trollocs, not about ... ” He stopped, and leaned back from the Warder's eyes, flat against the back of the tub.

“Don't talk about Trollocs,” Lan said grimly. “Don't even think about Trollocs.” With an angry snort he began filling himself a bathtub. “Blood and ashes, you had better remember, the Dark One has eyes and ears where you least expect. And if the Children of the Light heard Trollocs were after you, they'd be burning to get their hands on you. To them, it would be as much as naming you Darkfriend. It may not be what you are used to, but until we get where we are going, keep your trust small unless Mistress Alys or I tell you differently.” At his emphasis on the name Moiraine was using, Mat flinched.

“There was something that fellow wouldn't tell us,” Rand said. “Something he thought was trouble, but he wouldn't say what it was.”

“Probably the Children,” Lan said, pouring more hot water into his tub. “Most people consider them trouble. Some don't, though, and he did not know you well enough to risk it. You might have gone running to the Whitecloaks, for all he knew.”

 

 

This completes my 180 on my initial reaction from the bath scene.    The show writers & showrunner, whom I assumed knew WOT inside & out - just proved it to me.  

But the boys and girls took separate baths here with same gender attendants.  Not in the borderlands yet.

[ArrylT]

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

But the boys and girls took separate baths here with same gender attendants.  Not in the borderlands yet.

 

I had no qualms over them sharing a bath - my confusion was over Lan & his wanting a hot bath as I did not recall him being like that (which as shown I was wrong haha).   I think the issue for me was it came too soon - ie I was not fully invested into Lan as a character yet and that did not help.

[Meskell]

Never really understood the problems with having a hot bath but glad to see the above quote to fully put that one to bed. 
 

The sharing of the bath doesn’t bother me too much either. Just because we haven’t been told about their bond yet doesn’t mean that the show can’t express it in a non-sexual way. Also goes some way to being a bit of a shock tv viewers when Lan ends up with Nynaeve as there will be an assumption that the two older characters are together. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Meskell said:

Just because we haven’t been told about their bond yet doesn’t mean that the show can’t express it in a non-sexual way.

It accomplished a great deal in a short amount of time: the general take of the show towards nudity (it's not going to be gratuitous); the intimacy of the bond between Mo and Lan; Mo's ability to do magic; the fact that a Fade is in town and they have to speed up their plan. The fact that it was a shoutout to a Lan scene that had to be cut for pacing is icing on the cake.

 

[Joe B]

I'm okay with the bath scene. I do not, however, like the dialogue. ["it could be hotter"] It's not just Lan, I strongly dislike this type of statement outside of observation. If you want it hotter, then say it. Otherwise, you'll get a "noted" from me.