Logain's Story and the Babies...

[Elder_Haman]

We now know that Logain will be a major figure in Season One of the TV adaptation. I'm interested in what they intend to do with him and how they intend to tell the story of his capture and gentling - all of which happens "off screen" in the novels. Logain is a perfect character to spend time with in Season One. He's a male channeler and a false Dragon. That gives the writers the opportunity to develop themes about the Dragon, the prophecies, and the taint. But what will that story be?

 

We also know that the casting agency that supplies extras for WoT has been searching for babies since early on in filming. The call for babies was renewed recently (and all appearances are that filming has resumed). Since none of the major characters have children, there are no obvious scenes that would call for a baby anywhere in EotW. 

 

Most speculation revolves around: (1) Rand as a baby on Dragonmount [though the casting is asking for babies with darker skin than the actor cast for Rand]; (2) Rand/Egwene's baby in a vision; (3) Nynaeve/Lan's baby during the Accepted test.

 

But what if the baby (or babies) are meant to belong to Logain? A plot that involves Logain killing his own family would be a great way to mirror the events of the Prologue and visualize the madness of male channelers. It would also provide a shocking moment to hook new viewers. (Like Bran being pushed from the tower window in GoT). 

 

What do y'all think? How do you think Logain's story will be told on screen?

 

[mistborn82]

It's probably either the search after the battle of the shining walls, something to with Logain in Ghealdon or could it be a flashback to Owen, Thom's nephew. Showing him would help illustrate why Thom's helping boys mixed up with AS and it would also show madness. Doesn't Owen basically flatten his village at the end?

[Harldin]

Don’t know if i would call Logain a “major”character in S1, i think we will see his capture as the prologue to E1 and i think we will see some sort of scene between him and Rand, maybe him in the Cage in Caemlyn and him noticing Rand as he does in the Book as a glowing nimbus of light in the distance. 
 

Not quite sure how they would fit him in S2 unless he was to go to Falme with Liandrin and the girls. The other possibility for Logain is they combine him with Mazrim Taim(i certainly hope they don’t) but anything is possible and there is a change that Sanderson doesn’t think the Fans will be happy about.

[mistborn82]

They hired spanish actors, including the Ghealdon king and some others so I think we'll see more than his capture and gentling.

[Fano'Lan Redux]

6 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

But what if the baby (or babies) are meant to belong to Logain? A plot that involves Logain killing his own family would be a great way to mirror the events of the Prologue and visualize the madness of male channelers. It would also provide a shocking moment to hook new viewers. (Like Bran being pushed from the tower window in GoT). 

 

 

Interesting thought ... and more appealing the longer it marinates. Nice foundation for the EF boys' dread at the possibility of being the DR and everyone else in WoT World's fear and resultant societal treatment of men who can channel.

 

Maybe a quick intro to idealistic Logain, ready to accept the role of foil to the DO thus rallying followers. Next the viewer sees him in battle from a King's soldier's PoV and the loyalists get routed. A second victory with a little inside info help from Reds leads to a fretful King kissing rings, promising eternal gratitude on behalf of the nation.

 

Fertile ground for the introduction of Aes Sedai as unrivaled wielders of the One Power and also rep's of the NGO that makes thrones tremble and sitting rulers come when called.

[Elder_Haman]

13 hours ago, Fano'Lan Redux said:

 

Interesting thought ... and more appealing the longer it marinates. Nice foundation for the EF boys' dread at the possibility of being the DR and everyone else in WoT World's fear and resultant societal treatment of men who can channel.

 

Maybe a quick intro to idealistic Logain, ready to accept the role of foil to the DO thus rallying followers. Next the viewer sees him in battle from a King's soldier's PoV and the loyalists get routed. A second victory with a little inside info help from Reds leads to a fretful King kissing rings, promising eternal gratitude on behalf of the nation.

 

Fertile ground for the introduction of Aes Sedai as unrivaled wielders of the One Power and also rep's of the NGO that makes thrones tremble and sitting rulers come when called.

Yes. And we watch as after each of these events the channeling results in him becoming more and more unbalanced - culminating in him lashing out with the power and wiping out people he loves just prior to being captured. I think that would be a very intense, very personal story that would set up his long redemption arc.

[Guest redgiant]

I think they will start early on with Logain and show more details than the off-screen happenings in Ghealdan, but I do not think they will reveal anything about "false dragons" right away. When they show Logain initially, a new viewer will just assume form what they are being shown that (a) he is powerful in some kind of magic, and (b) he is perhaps a little nuts in how he acts or appears.

 

Then I think there will be some follow-on exposition and scenes (not sure about outright flashbacks vs simple conversations about the past) that ease us into the notion that (a) magic men are dangerous, and (b) they must be caught and stopped. A good time to introduce, even if indirectly without saying it outright, who and what are Aes Sedai.

 

The beginning of the story is the only time before it becomes obvious who Rand is. Or that someone of a certain age is being searched for (I definitely hope they reveal THIS nugget at the same time as the books). Which also implies I don't thinkthey will use any babies in the revealing way we know is coming later right up front.

 

I would think they want to make the real main characters focused on seem like side issues for as long as they can get away with, while developing other foundational  lore and powers in the world that matter regardless, such as the Aes Sedai and channeling in general.

 

Winternight still has to be a surprise, with no apparent reason why it happened (at first).

[Elder_Haman]

On 4/7/2021 at 4:19 PM, Harldin said:

Don’t know if i would call Logain a “major”character in S1, i think we will see his capture as the prologue to E1 and i think we will see some sort of scene between him and Rand, maybe him in the Cage in Caemlyn and him noticing Rand as he does in the Book as a glowing nimbus of light in the distance. 

 

Since Logain's story line is completely distinct from the rest of the main characters in the show, it makes him a major character by default. We will be following his story. The question is where does his story begin?

 

2 hours ago, redgiant said:

I think they will start early on with Logain and show more details than the off-screen happenings in Ghealdan, but I do not think they will reveal anything about "false dragons" right away. When they show Logain initially, a new viewer will just assume form what they are being shown that (a) he is powerful in some kind of magic, and (b) he is perhaps a little nuts in how he acts or appears.

 

Then I think there will be some follow-on exposition and scenes (not sure about outright flashbacks vs simple conversations about the past) that ease us into the notion that (a) magic men are dangerous, and (b) they must be caught and stopped. A good time to introduce, even if indirectly without saying it outright, who and what are Aes Sedai.

 

I get what you're saying here. But Logain's major defining feature at the beginning of the story is that he is a false Dragon. Now they may get rid of the "false" part. I think it would be good tv storytelling to have the audience (most of whom are unfamiliar with the books) begin by believing that Logain is the Dragon. So I think we will see Logain claim the title of the Dragon Reborn. Here's my thinking:

 

From a world building perspective, new consumers of WoT content need to be introduced to the basic magic system and some aspects of the foundational lore. Aes Sedai and the White Tower will be prominent figures early on, thanks to Moiraine. But that still leaves male channelers and the Taint that require some sort of "show don't tell" exposition.

 

Logain is the perfect vehicle. His story can serve most of the same narrative purpose as Jordan's prologue. (1) He can introduce the concept of who the Dragon is; (2) He can introduce the concept, look, and power of male channelers; (3) He can introduce the Taint and thereby establish the societal dangers presented by male channelers. And if you have him wipe out his family (or even just lose control and massacre indiscriminately) you can immediately establish the stakes. This is the perfect way of making an audience experience the consequences of being a male channeler. 

 

Logain's development can also serve a secondary function: misdirection. The vast majority of WoT viewers will be unfamiliar with the source material. Therefore the writers can set early expectations so that audiences at the beginning of the series believe Logain is a villain, perhaps the primary villain of the series. He is, after all, the Dragon who we will learn (undoubtedly from Moiraine) is destined to potentially destroy the world. The Aes Sedai are meant to protect the world from the Dragon.

 

This early misdirection (which won't last too long) allows the writers the opportunity to subvert the expectations they've created. No, Logain isn't the major antagonist, just a guy that can channel. Look how awful it is to be a guy that can channel. No, the Aes Sedai aren't all pure, good-hearted women. They are ruthless, deceptive and menacing. And no, Logain isn't the Dragon.

 

The last revelation - that Logain isn't the Dragon will also probably coincide with the audience learning that each of the Emond's Field boys are special. This fuels speculation - which of the boys is the Chosen One? Maybe the Chosen One won't be able to channel? Simultaneously, we worry about Rand. Oh no, he can channel? Maybe he will control it? Can we trust Moiraine? What happens if other Aes Sedai find him? Will Egwene be used against him? Will she turn against him?

 

This should be the goal of the writers. Use the lore of the World to set an initial set of expectations, then subvert those expectations to create questions that the audience wants answers to. Wanting to know the answers keeps the audience coming back for another episode. The hope is that by the time those questions are answered, the audience likes the characters so much that they've invested for the long term. 

[mistborn82]

It will be interesting see, if the show gets that far, how they handle Nyneave accidentally healing him. Just as an aside, I hope they lose the whole Luca episode and have everyone go right to salidar.

[Borderlander]

Elder_Haman, that was very well-thought out and interesting to read. Previously, I had been predicting episode 1 to start with some kind of epic showdown between a bunch of Aes Sedai and Logain, kind of like LOTR beginning with that huge battle against Sauron.

 

{I thought it would work well if, after a 5-10 minute mind-blowing, *expensive* sequence where Logain is showing off how devastating and terrifying channeling can be, calling down lightning and blasting away armies of soldiers, the Aes Sedai finally capture and gentle him with a ring of sisters, and when he finally goes limp, a scene like this plays out:

Sister 1: The world is safe! The Dragon Reborn has been stopped.

Sister 2: Are you so sure? There are some among us who don't believe this man is the true Dragon.

Sister 1: Huh? Like who?

(but better written!)

And then we follow a wind across the kingdom to Moiraine and Lan as they enter Emond's Field. }

 

But, after reading your breakdown/theory, I think I would maybe rather see Logain developed more in line with what you're suggesting for a few episodes before they capture/gentle him.

 

[Elessar]

Elder_Haman What you write above makes perfect sense from a 'world building take new viewers by surprise' perspective but it makes me concerned that they would be taking the story too far away from canon (incl. Rand taking center stage early on in the books).

 

You know from my earlier comments in this section that I wish for a more faithful adaptation of the books (smaller changes, not major ones). Misdirection can work plot wise in a tv-series (f.ex. at first with Logain as Dragon Reborn, the Saviour and Moiraine as the 'baddy' Aes Sedai) but it does not sit well with me because the changes would be too great for me with regards to Robert Jordan's vision. I know other fans don't mind such changes so it becomes a matter of personal opinion.

 

PS. I recently watched Game of Thrones again (this time in glorious 4K Ultra HD) and again I was so pleased to see how decently faithful the tv-series (esp season 1 and 2) was to the source material (George RR Martin's books, with no major changes). It show it is possible to have a faithful tv-adaptation which (still) captivates audiences though that does (sadly imo) not seem to be the direction Rafe and the showrunners are heading with the Wheel of Time tv-show ref. what we have heard so far and all the discussions in this section.

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Elessar

[Harldin]

1 hour ago, Borderlander said:

Elder_Haman, that was very well-thought out and interesting to read. Previously, I had been predicting episode 1 to start with some kind of epic showdown between a bunch of Aes Sedai and Logain, kind of like LOTR beginning with that huge battle against Sauron.

 

{I thought it would work well if, after a 5-10 minute mind-blowing, *expensive* sequence where Logain is showing off how devastating and terrifying channeling can be, calling down lightning and blasting away armies of soldiers, the Aes Sedai finally capture and gentle him with a ring of sisters, and when he finally goes limp, a scene like this plays out:

Sister 1: The world is safe! The Dragon Reborn has been stopped.

Sister 2: Are you so sure? There are some among us who don't believe this man is the true Dragon.

Sister 1: Huh? Like who?

(but better written!)

And then we follow a wind across the kingdom to Moiraine and Lan as they enter Emond's Field. }

 

But, after reading your breakdown/theory, I think I would maybe rather see Logain developed more in line with what you're suggesting for a few episodes before they capture/gentle him.

 

Sister one : definitely Liandrin, we know she is in S1 

[mistborn82]

@Elessar WOT and GOT are different and a big thing, I've only listened to Ice and Fire once so I could be wrong, but from what I remember, GOT doesn't spend nearly as much time as WOT in characters' heads. You also have to demonstrate how dangerous the Dragon is to an audience, hence Logain.

[Elder_Haman]

39 minutes ago, Elessar said:

Elder_Haman What you write above makes perfect sense from a 'world building take new viewers by surprise' perspective but it makes me concerned that they would be taking the story too far away from canon (incl. Rand taking center stage early on in the books).

I would guess that the series will try to veer away from being "Rand-centric", especially early on. Both because they want to avoid obvious tropes and because they want to highlight their ensemble cast.

 

[mistborn82]

@Elessardon't forget, we're seeing for the most part stuff that can't be hidden and a tiny bit of promotion. You should probably wait for the trailer at the very least before deciding. Right now everyone is just stringing together hints into tapestries which may or may not be accurate.

Another thing about GOT, it crashed and burned in the end, partly because the source material wasn't and probably never will be finished. WOT is 14 books, you'll get 8-10 seasons max and WOT isn't perfect, especially the later books. My guess is if Ice and Fire had been finished some of the things you like in the early seasons would've been different.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

I think Logain is a perfect character for the show to use for worldbuilding and storytelling. He gets sidelined quickly, but as others have said he is in a great position to show the audience about the world. His story cleanly transitions into the main plot and he doesn't steal the show, but he's also there for some important moments. I would love to see a focus on Logain in the show.

 

As for baby speculation, I don't know. I think it could easily just be Rand on the slopes of Dragonmount, or any other simple explanation. There are babies in the story without giving Logain kids. But maybe! Regardless I really do wanna see Logain as a more fleshed out character, because he's cool.

 

I guess I take the position that the books are amazing, but the world implied by the books is ripe for new stories and I would appreciate seeing those new/elaborated stories on screen. If this series is gonna be a success it will have to compromise in places, and I think a wise director/writer will look at characters like Logain to find ways to please old fans like us and new watchers who want immediate gratification each episode.

[mistborn82]

Logain is also a relatively minor character that becomes a semi important sort of major character later on, if that makes sense. He really should get more book time than he actually does and frankly there are some sideplots we could do without to make room for him.

While watching youtube I heard something, think of series as a different turning of the wheel.

[Harldin]

29 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:

Logain is also a relatively minor character that becomes a semi important sort of major character later on, if that makes sense. He really should get more book time than he actually does and frankly there are some sideplots we could do without to make room for him.

While watching youtube I heard something, think of series as a different turning of the wheel.

Agree on giving Logain more book time, would like to have read about him being captured by Taim and his attempts at breaking him. 
Treating the TV Show as a different turning is definitely a good way to look at it and a good way to shoot down some of the more vocal critics, because there is no real comeback, you could make massive changes and still call it the Wheel of Time as there is no true Canon, just another turning of the Wheel.

[Merena]

I was surprised when I found that Logain was going to be a major figure in Season 1. There are just so many other characters and events in Book 1. He is one of my favorite characters, though, so I'm actually excited to hear that.

 

Thanks for sharing your theory @Elder_Haman - maybe they will omit some of the Lews Therin story early on and instead have Logain showing the negative impacts of channeling saidin?

 

 

On 4/9/2021 at 5:19 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I would guess that the series will try to veer away from being "Rand-centric", especially early on.

 

From the hype/marketing that I've seen, I got the impression that the series (at least the first season) would be more Moiraine-centric?

[Elder_Haman]

37 minutes ago, Merena said:

From the hype/marketing that I've seen, I got the impression that the series (at least the first season) would be more Moiraine-centric?

I'm not sure how this will play out exactly. But I definitely have the feeling that the White Tower will be the central political player in S1 and it makes sense to have Moiraine as the most prominent face of the White Tower. (Also, Rosamund Pike is the recognizable star so she's going to be the centerpiece of a lot of marketing).

 

I still believe the story will be centered on the EF5 though.

[DojoToad]

Could all the babies be a flashback to the time when Moiraine and Siuan are handing out the gold at the end of the Aiel war?

[Merena]

7 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Could all the babies be a flashback to the time when Moiraine and Siuan are handing out the gold at the end of the Aiel war?

 

That is what I was thinking as well. Otherwise, they would just be looking for one or two babies!

[Asha'man Shar'aman]

What about Lan as a baby? We know if they are going to do his backstory, they have to show him being carried away from Malkier, so they would need a baby for that. Plus, the Borderlanders are supposed to be a little darker skinned than Rand, so it would make sense, right?

[mistborn82]

One of the babies could be for a Lan flashback but I think most are for what @DojoToadsuggested.

[Elder_Haman]

Based on the (albeit limited) information we have, I think neither is accurate. I'm thinking Nynaeve's test to become Accepted.