Naughty Bits

[Elder_Haman]

One of the more intriguing aspects of the TV show is how broad of an audience Amazon will go for. I think the possibilities realistically range from TV-14 to TV-MA. TV-PG (the next 'lower' rating) calls for minimal violence, which I just don't think will work. The difference between these basically comes down to two things: nudity and gore.

 

While TV-14 will have some blood and violence, TV-MA will have realistic violence and gore. TV-14 shows will have brief, "tasteful" nudity and implied sexual situations (think side boob and strategic placement of blankets during sex scenes) while TV-MA can include full frontal nudity and more graphic sexual depictions. 

 

Personally, I think the creators will head for the TV-MA rating. Violence and psychological terror are integral components of the plot. And, while Robert Jordan was not overly descriptive when it came to sex, the books do contain nudity and sex. Seeing that the trend is toward "Game of Thrones" type realism, I would be very surprised if the show went the other direction.

 

What do y'all think?

 

 

[mistborn82]

It'll be TV-MA but depends on how MA it is. Like, I've watched several R movies that only have 1 or  2 F-bombs and some blood, If they don't use the full breath of MA that's fine too but I hope they don't go the Carnival Row route where they seemingly put sex scenes in a few of the episodes just because they could.

[johnnysd]

I think there are probably even within the WoT production crew differences of opinion and then it needs to be balanced against Amazon's own wishes.

 

In terms of Amazon, there does not seem to be a prevalence of gratuitous nudity in their original series even in very adult shows like The Boys despite tons of very sexual situations. On the other hand, the two most successful fantasy shows GOT and The Witcher have TONS of nudity and "sexposition". I doubt Amazon has not noted the correlation. Also, keep in mind that they are also doing a LOTR TV show and it would make sense to keep the PG-13 element that the movies had.

 

If the show were on HBO or Starz it would definitely be very sexual and tons of nudity. But even Netflix seems to be shying away from nudity in their shows, sort of like Amazon.

 

In many shows it now seems more acceptable to show male nudity than female nudity probably as a reaction to exploitation of women.

 

Rafe has said that he wants the show to be "adult, but accessible". He has also said that if something is really adult in the show there might be alternative ways to watch that episode in a more family friendly way. The casting has been very diverse and I think sexual orientation will be very diverse and well represented as well in the show. He has said that there would be "pillow friends out the wazoo" and that Rands love life will not be polygamous but polyamorous.

 

Now we know outside of Rosamund that most of the main characters will require nudity. 

 

The initial write ups seem to make it a point to appeal to women.

 

So in the end I think that Amazon in a bold move might actually have two versions of the show, one TV-MA and one TV-14 with the TV-14 one maybe syndicated as well to more restrictive markets.

 

From what Rafe has said in his vision I don't think they are going to show a lot of frontal female nudity and explicit sex scenes. I think we will see a lot of butts both male and female, side boob, and mostly bra and strategically placed sheet sex, with maybe some very brief boobs. I don't see them going full frontal, and I suspect if they do it will more likely be male than female. There will be male-male sexual relationships which are only broadly hinted at in the books. My personal theory is that Rafe has transgendered Min.

 

However, it is also possible than Amazon will push more for the GOT and Witcher appeal, so if they do create an adult and a "more accessible" version, the TV-MA version might have much more nudity and sexual scenes that are either extended scenes or scenes that could be cut entirely.

 

I am sure it is a bit of a tug of war. The interesting thing about WoT is that it is sort of an X-rated, NC-17 show told from a PG-13 standpoint so they can do the show successfully at any point in that spectrum.

 

 

 

[johnnysd]

9 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:

It'll be TV-MA but depends on how MA it is. Like, I've watched several R movies that only have 1 or  2 F-bombs and some blood, If they don't use the full breath of MA that's fine too but I hope they don't go the Carnival Row route where they seemingly put sex scenes in a few of the episodes just because they could.

 

I had forgotten about Carnival Row in my write up above. It could point to a more explicit show but I do think there will be multiple versions. Maybe even a TV version (maybe a year staggered) and a streaming version.

Edited July 28, 2020 by johnnysd

[Sammuel]

1 hour ago, johnnysd said:

I think there are probably even within the WoT production crew differences of opinion and then it needs to be balanced against Amazon's own wishes.

 

In terms of Amazon, there does not seem to be a prevalence of gratuitous nudity in their original series even in very adult shows like The Boys despite tons of very sexual situations. On the other hand, the two most successful fantasy shows GOT and The Witcher have TONS of nudity and "sexposition". I doubt Amazon has not noted the correlation. Also, keep in mind that they are also doing a LOTR TV show and it would make sense to keep the PG-13 element that the movies had.

 

If the show were on HBO or Starz it would definitely be very sexual and tons of nudity. But even Netflix seems to be shying away from nudity in their shows, sort of like Amazon.

 

In many shows it now seems more acceptable to show male nudity than female nudity probably as a reaction to exploitation of women.

 

Rafe has said that he wants the show to be "adult, but accessible". He has also said that if something is really adult in the show there might be alternative ways to watch that episode in a more family friendly way. The casting has been very diverse and I think sexual orientation will be very diverse and well represented as well in the show. He has said that there would be "pillow friends out the wazoo" and that Rands love life will not be polygamous but polyamorous.

 

Now we know outside of Rosamund that most of the main characters will require nudity. 

 

The initial write ups seem to make it a point to appeal to women.

 

So in the end I think that Amazon in a bold move might actually have two versions of the show, one TV-MA and one TV-14 with the TV-14 one maybe syndicated as well to more restrictive markets.

 

From what Rafe has said in his vision I don't think they are going to show a lot of frontal female nudity and explicit sex scenes. I think we will see a lot of butts both male and female, side boob, and mostly bra and strategically placed sheet sex, with maybe some very brief boobs. I don't see them going full frontal, and I suspect if they do it will more likely be male than female. There will be male-male sexual relationships which are only broadly hinted at in the books. My personal theory is that Rafe has transgendered Min.

 

However, it is also possible than Amazon will push more for the GOT and Witcher appeal, so if they do create an adult and a "more accessible" version, the TV-MA version might have much more nudity and sexual scenes that are either extended scenes or scenes that could be cut entirely.

 

I am sure it is a bit of a tug of war. The interesting thing about WoT is that it is sort of an X-rated, NC-17 show told from a PG-13 standpoint so they can do the show successfully at any point in that spectrum.

 

 

 

I just watched the conversation on the Dusty Wheel about this: 

 

 

I think that there are two ways they can go. First way, all the nudity is only related to sexual situations, and that it's just butt and boobs and suggestive shots. Second way, if they want to show all the ritual nudity and situations related to characters being shamed, then just go full front with it and don't act like you're trying to hide anything. A lot of the ritual nudity is problematic, because it mostly revolves around the women, and at the same time there's this weird dynamic where all the female channelers need to remain chaste while the men at the black tower are allowed to have families, but that's a different discussion, but there's a lot of fetishized nudity in the show, and they can either exploit it and suffer the outcry or pull back on it. 

 

I have to confess I am uncomfortable about the suggestion about Min being transgendered. It's better than not having her in the show at all, which I've heard suggested, but she is my favorite character in the series, and I'd be anxious about this change up until the show is actually aired. And I honestly am not sure if this makes me a bad ignorant person. 

 

(By the way, and I've mentioned this before, Min is the only major female character that doesn't get a non-sexual nudity scene, and most of that non-sexual nudity feels like it's meant to disempower and humble powerful women like Nyneave, Faile, and even Siuan. I have a feeling that Min doesn't get this treatment because she's not a powerful character, in that she's not a channeler or a ruler, so doesn't need to get humbled. But she does used a lot of bondage language though for some reason.) 

[dssharp]

I was trying to decide what set game of thrones apart so much to make it so compelling and so incredibly successful and watched.  The good writing and acting and source material are the easy answers, but as we all know, source material doesn't guarantee a great compelling TV series.  The high budget with very good sets and costumes and locations.  Special and practical effects that look real and add rather than detract.  One of the most compelling things is the fantastic and nuanced characters.  WOT series seems to have good acting and budget and sets etc.  We already know the source material is good.  Casting seems to be good, but time will tell.  GOT also minimized magical elements, and there's not really a way WOT can do that, so hopefully the magic is very well executed.  Now to the question at hand: how mature should this series be?

 

I think that it tends to lend a feeling of realism and gravity and consequence, that lighter fantasy series really lack.  I think that a more unflinching depiction would lead to a more visceral and consequential feel to the series.  A lot of "lightweight" poorly done fantasy series keep coming to mind as I ponder this topic.  Keeping things for all audiences makes it a harder line to walk I think.  I realize LOTR is a great exception to the rule, being kept in PG13 territory, but again I think it is the exception and if Rafe decides to go that way, I really hope he pulls it off.  Something I read Rafe write makes me wonder if we will be getting a somewhat sanitized version.  My vote however is more towards an HBO version than a CW version.  I don't think there needs to be a lot of explicit nudity and extreme gore shoehorned in to pull this off, but I wouldn't shy away from it either. 

[Rand520]

At the very least you need a harem orgy. Lucky guy...I would expect some serious white tower action also. ? 

[mistborn82]

@SammuelI think people are trying to make Min transgender based solely on the dresses like a boy thing unless I missed something official. Whereas Min just doesn't play by society roles and appearances of women in that world. If anything, I could see them giving Min more action scenes based on the fact she's not a shy retiring lass. I also think making Min transgender would do a disservice to her character.

[Sammuel]

57 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:

@SammuelI think people are trying to make Min transgender based solely on the dresses like a boy thing unless I missed something official. Whereas Min just doesn't play by society roles and appearances of women in that world. If anything, I could see them giving Min more action scenes based on the fact she's not a shy retiring lass. I also think making Min transgender would do a disservice to her character.

totally agree. Without going to far off course, I do want her to be more action-y but I appreciate that she's not a channeler and doesn't have warrior training. The one thing I do want her to be able to do, and I don't know why it's not in the books, is her ability to see Darkfriends. I do wonder if they are going to do something queer with Rands character, based solely on the fact that the actor has done some queer cinema. 

[johnnysd]

1 hour ago, mistborn82 said:

@SammuelI think people are trying to make Min transgender based solely on the dresses like a boy thing unless I missed something official. Whereas Min just doesn't play by society roles and appearances of women in that world. If anything, I could see them giving Min more action scenes based on the fact she's not a shy retiring lass. I also think making Min transgender would do a disservice to her character.

 

I do NOT want Min to be TG. I would hate the change. However certain things point to it.

 

1. Min is in season 1 (Rafe has confirmed)

2. Elayne, Min and Aviendha are all in but Rand's relationship will be polyamorous

3. Rand and the girls (B/G). the girls (G/G) is polyamorous but adding (B/G/T) more so

4. Brandon Sanderson has said that most fans will hate one change. Well since then with every casting it is obvious that they are cutting almost nothing, and the Min change would be something Brandon would hate and fans would hate

5. Min is still not announced (may never be)

 

When I just look at all this, it's why I think that. But I WOULD hate it.

[Sammuel]

Out of curiosity, do you think they could possibly hold back the identities of Elayne and Min until the air date? If they got big names, the reveals might be kind of fun but kind of distracting. 

 

I say that if that's what they decide to do, they do it well. It would piss off everyone if they cast a female actress to play her and then pull a "Let the right one in" and just say she's trans. They'll have an uphill battle to win people over.

 

Same if they decide to make Aviendha a guy and have that character have a loving sibling relationship with Elayne. 

 

 

[johnnysd]

Just now, Sammuel said:

Out of curiosity, do you think they could possibly hold back the identities of Elayne and Min until the air date? If they got big names, the reveals might be kind of fun but kind of distracting. 

 

I say that if that's what they decide to do, they do it well. It would piss off everyone if they cast a female actress to play her and then pull a "Let the right one in" and just say she's trans. They'll have an uphill battle to win people over.

 

Same if they decide to make Aviendha a guy and have that character have a loving sibling relationship with Elayne. 

 

 

 

I think they could save some of the castings until air date but seems sort of unlikely. They may save the reveals of Elayne, Aviendha, and Min till close to airdate to build some hype. Also as far as know no forsaken has been revealed yet either and there should be at least 3 in season 1

[Harldin]

I don’t think they will drift to far from the Books with the graphic scenes, the sex scenes will be fairly light, doesn’t need to get heavy. The strongest WOT theme that will drive the rating will be Horror and Graphic violence, throw strong Sex scenes in as well and you may end up with to strong a rating. I don’t think Amazon will want anything stronger then a not recommended for anyone under 15(MA15+), certainly won’t want a R rating(18+)*.

*those ratings are for my home country Australia.

[Dovie'andi se tovya sagain]

19 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

One of the more intriguing aspects of the TV show is how broad of an audience Amazon will go for. I think the possibilities realistically range from TV-14 to TV-MA. TV-PG (the next 'lower' rating) calls for minimal violence, which I just don't think will work. The difference between these basically comes down to two things: nudity and gore.

 

While TV-14 will have some blood and violence, TV-MA will have realistic violence and gore. TV-14 shows will have brief, "tasteful" nudity and implied sexual situations (think side boob and strategic placement of blankets during sex scenes) while TV-MA can include full frontal nudity and more graphic sexual depictions. 

 

Personally, I think the creators will head for the TV-MA rating. Violence and psychological terror are integral components of the plot. And, while Robert Jordan was not overly descriptive when it came to sex, the books do contain nudity and sex. Seeing that the trend is toward "Game of Thrones" type realism, I would be very surprised if the show went the other direction.

 

What do y'all think?

 

 

Based on what was said during the answer to the question from the last call-in at time stamp 1:22:20 asking about the ratings for the show I think they'll have both TV-MA and TV-14 available. The TV-MA version being the truest to the books which honestly are not for young children or as we euphemistically put it "family friendly" as well as a TV-14 version available to get a wider audience base.

 

 

[Thrasymachus]

I tend to agree with Harldin.  The books set a precedent with how they deal with sexual nudity and violence/gore.  It would be as much of a stretch for them to be extremely graphic with either as it would be to make Min transgendered.  (Who really gives that idea any credence?)  The psychological terror aspects of the series don't depend on graphic depictions of violence or gore, but upon the atmosphere created and the character's reactions to what they witness.  The really gory stuff can still be shown, such as Dumai's Wells, or Rand's playing with the corpse of the little girl in Tear, but be done quickly enough, or with obscured camera angles and atmospheric concealment, to keep a TV-14 rating, if they really want to.  They may decide to have one or two episodes per season deserve a hard TV-MA, but I reckon most of them will stay a bit softer than that, though they may still keep the TV-MA rating throughout.  That rating is not as much of a hindrance as it used to be.

 

It really depends on their audience.  The books' audience are pretty clearly young-adult; if they're trying to capture new fans, they'll want to maintain that focus.  But the bulk of the existing fanbase is all well-beyond young-adult, most are middle-aged or older, and those just discovering the series are as often older readers as younger ones.  If they want to capitalize on the existing fanbase to get a loyal viewership, that can then grow in popularity through favorable media and word-of-mouth by fans, they may want to adapt the show to appeal to those more adult appetites.

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

I tend to agree with Harldin.  The books set a precedent with how they deal with sexual nudity and violence/gore.  It would be as much of a stretch for them to be extremely graphic with either as it would be to make Min transgendered.  (Who really gives that idea any credence?)  The psychological terror aspects of the series don't depend on graphic depictions of violence or gore, but upon the atmosphere created and the character's reactions to what they witness.  The really gory stuff can still be shown, such as Dumai's Wells, or Rand's playing with the corpse of the little girl in Tear, but be done quickly enough, or with obscured camera angles and atmospheric concealment, to keep a TV-14 rating, if they really want to.  They may decide to have one or two episodes per season deserve a hard TV-MA, but I reckon most of them will stay a bit softer than that, though they may still keep the TV-MA rating throughout.  That rating is not as much of a hindrance as it used to be.

 

I think this is spot on.

My big hope is that they consciously avoid the gratuitous and focus on the story. As written, the book is closer to TV-14 than to TV-MA.

[Harldin]

If they show the opening prologue from EOTW as written it will certainly be some start, dozens of bodies burnt, melted into the stone including Children, looks of sheer horror on there faces and then you find out that the person who done this was a good guy who went insane and is actually the Husband, Brother, Father, Grandfather, Great Grandfather life time friend of the dead. And then commits the most spectacular suicide ever in Fiction. 
If they go that way it will probably draw a strong rating from the word go. 

[Elder_Haman]

40 minutes ago, Harldin said:

If they show the opening prologue from EOTW as written it will certainly be some start, dozens of bodies burnt, melted into the stone including Children, looks of sheer horror on there faces and then you find out that the person who done this was a good guy who went insane and is actually the Husband, Brother, Father, Grandfather, Great Grandfather life time friend of the dead. And then commits the most spectacular suicide ever in Fiction. 
If they go that way it will probably draw a strong rating from the word go. 

 

If I'm not mistaken, Rafe has already said that they won't be starting with the Prologue.

 

I bet that it will be some combination of the end of the Aiel War, Rand's birth, and Gitara's foretelling to open the show. 

[johnnysd]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

I think this is spot on.

My big hope is that they consciously avoid the gratuitous and focus on the story. As written, the book is closer to TV-14 than to TV-MA.

 

The book is TV-MA (strongly) written in a TV-14 way. Rafe wants it seem "adult". Well the WoT as TV-14 will not seem adult at all and could completely undermine a lot of the core elements of the show especially magic making it feel more like a teen show.  I will like it either way I suspect but I think it will be more successful being closer to GOT and Witcher than a CW show. And many thought the Witcher was more of a young adult show itself.

[johnnysd]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

If I'm not mistaken, Rafe has already said that they won't be starting with the Prologue.

 

I bet that it will be some combination of the end of the Aiel War, Rand's birth, and Gitara's foretelling to open the show. 

 

Pretty sure Rafe has confirmed Rand on Tam and the Fade as first scene. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, johnnysd said:

 

Pretty sure Rafe has confirmed Rand on Tam and the Fade as first scene. 

 

That might open the show. I still think we will have a pre-credit opening with Gitara. I'll bet you a shiny, new quarter. 

[johnnysd]

28 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

That might open the show. I still think we will have a pre-credit opening with Gitara. I'll bet you a shiny, new quarter. 

 

Sure. Pretty certain you will lose. In fact I think there is even a pic of the first page of the script for episode one showing this scene

[Thrasymachus]

Isn't the opening scene Rand walking down the Quarry Road with Tam?  I imagine the prologue has been cut, or will show up later on as a dream sequence or as Rand begins dealing with his madness.  The Emond's Field raid on Winternight will probably be more chaotic than gory.  I dunno what the opening credits shots will be, but if they include any scenes of characters at all, they will most likely be taken from appropriately dramatic shots taken from the episodes, set to music, and probably not depict some kind of narrative of their own.

 

And it's worth mentioning that violence against clear monsters (like Trollocs) is usually not rated as being as mature as violence against identifiable people.  That can also hold for people wearing masks, such as at Dumai's Wells.  So even showing the absolute slaughter there, which I agree really should be pretty brutal, can still be done in a way that preserves the TV-14 rating, if they want to go that route.

 

What the books depict isn't as important for age-ratings as how it's depicted.  Graphic descriptions of horrific things like death, dismemberment, and torture will get you mature rating.  But mentioning those things happening while describing character reactions to them will skew your rating younger.  Jordan is nowhere very graphic in his descriptions of the horrors he gives us, but by being more vague, he both brings his age-ratings for his books down to YA status, and allows the reader's imagination to fill in a lot of the more gory gaps.

 

If there's one thing we all should have learned about the Wheel of Time series so far, it's that the way it is written allows a great deal of leeway in how the reader imagines what is depicted in the books, and indeed encourages that imagination.  In adapting it to a new medium, which obviates certain uses of one's imagination, one could choose to be more explicit, or choose to hew towards the way the books are written, using atmosphere, character reactions, and quick cutaways to leave plenty of room for the viewer's imaginations to fill in the gaps.  Thematically, I feel like the latter would be more appropriate as a true homage to the series.  Terrible things happen, and we know they happen, but they are never very explicitly depicted.

[johnnysd]

2 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Isn't the opening scene Rand walking down the Quarry Road with Tam?  I imagine the prologue has been cut, or will show up later on as a dream sequence or as Rand begins dealing with his madness.  The Emond's Field raid on Winternight will probably be more chaotic than gory.  I dunno what the opening credits shots will be, but if they include any scenes of characters at all, they will most likely be taken from appropriately dramatic shots taken from the episodes, set to music, and probably not depict some kind of narrative of their own.

 

And it's worth mentioning that violence against clear monsters (like Trollocs) is usually not rated as being as mature as violence against identifiable people.  That can also hold for people wearing masks, such as at Dumai's Wells.  So even showing the absolute slaughter there, which I agree really should be pretty brutal, can still be done in a way that preserves the TV-14 rating, if they want to go that route.

 

What the books depict isn't as important for age-ratings as how it's depicted.  Graphic descriptions of horrific things like death, dismemberment, and torture will get you mature rating.  But mentioning those things happening while describing character reactions to them will skew your rating younger.  Jordan is nowhere very graphic in his descriptions of the horrors he gives us, but by being more vague, he both brings his age-ratings for his books down to YA status, and allows the reader's imagination to fill in a lot of the more gory gaps.

 

If there's one thing we all should have learned about the Wheel of Time series so far, it's that the way it is written allows a great deal of leeway in how the reader imagines what is depicted in the books, and indeed encourages that imagination.  In adapting it to a new medium, which obviates certain uses of one's imagination, one could choose to be more explicit, or choose to hew towards the way the books are written, using atmosphere, character reactions, and quick cutaways to leave plenty of room for the viewer's imaginations to fill in the gaps.  Thematically, I feel like the latter would be more appropriate as a true homage to the series.  Terrible things happen, and we know they happen, but they are never very explicitly depicted.

 

I can understand that POV but I am not sure I would go there.  It's a dangerous, dirty, broken world and I think you need to show that. The world is in many ways darker than GOT. I would make it close to GOT level in terms of sex and violence. I think the show will feel real that way. What you describe will make it too non adult and not to be taken seriously. If it comes across as fantasy characters doing magic which a lower rating is more likely to it will fail. if it comes across as actual people in a dangerous world some of whom can do magic it will succeed. 

[Thrasymachus]

But you can certainly show its dangerousness and brokenness without being explicit and showing the specific sorts of things that garner the mature ratings.  And that can often be more engaging for viewers than explicitly showing what's going on.  As Jordan himself put it, "He strains to hear a whisper, who refuses to hear a shout."