Who Really Won The Last Battle?

[James Sedai]

 

How many horror movies end with a final shot that reveals the awful truth....that the antagonist lives; despite the general assumption by the characters in the story, and therefore by the viewers (or readers), that the evil entity has been vanquished.

 

So what if after lighting the pipe, we interpret 'Rand's' laugh as a maniacal cackle by an escaped Dark One?

 

He is loose, and has just confirmed to himself he still has the ability to remake or break the world as he desires.

 

Once you apply this hypothesis, a great deal of other pieces of foreshadowing and prediction/prophecy takes on a very different caste......a tremendous amount......?

 

Is this a new idea? I doubt it.

Is it a good idea?

[Topazy]

This is a good idea for sure.

The same idea was involved in the books of Stephen King.Especially under your description gets book IT.

Dancing Clown PENNYWISE,This is an antagonist who impressed me a lot more than the main characters.

-Regards Topazy.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Topazy

[James Sedai]

I had a Stephen King screen adaptation in mind too....think it was called Storm of the Century or something similar.

 

Ends with a boy turning to the camera with demonic eyes.

 

Or Micheal Chriton's Sphere, where the female survivor shows traits of still having reality altering powers gained by contact with a mysterious (and dark with firefly type things!) Entity.

 

There are myriad examples though.

The dark one is loose...?

[solarz]

Or maybe Rand has been the Dark One all along!

 

[Topazy]

2 minutes ago, solarz said:

Or maybe Rand has been the Dark One all along!

Yes!You can be right!

[Sabio]

Wow that would suck if it meant Rand was trapped in the DO's prison now and only hope for escape was waiting for the bore to be drilled again.

[James Sedai]

Rand being the Dark One the entire time would kind of negate the whole point of the story.

I only postulate a twist to the perception of the last scene, which is also one of the most contentious and unexplained.

Along with the mystery Aiel (Nakomi?) and a couple of others.

 

 

[James Sedai]

6 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Wow that would suck if it meant Rand was trapped in the DO's prison now and only hope for escape was waiting for the bore to be drilled again.

 

Back in the box.

[James Sedai]

By the time the bore was reopened Rand would be rather demented and in a very dark mood.

 

Could say he would be the Dark One.

 

Terrible and pitiful. Powerful and vengeful.

R.a.T. = Rand al Thor

T.a.R = Tel aran Rhiod.

Round in circles, back and forth. Turn and turn about?

Edited February 5, 2018 by James Sedai

[solarz]

10 minutes ago, James Sedai said:

Rand being the Dark One the entire time would kind of negate the whole point of the story.

I only postulate a twist to the perception of the last scene, which is also one of the most contentious and unexplained.

Along with the mystery Aiel (Nakomi?) and a couple of others.

 

It's not as far fetched as you might think.

 

In the Eye of the World, the Dragon was equated with the Dark One. False Dragons wreak havoc and destruction. Scratching the Dragon's Fang on someone's door is meant to bring them bad luck, or mark them as Darkfriends.

 

As the series progresses, we see Rand growing more and more insane. Now, Rand probably didn't start out as the Dark One, but guess what's driving him insane? The Dark One's Taint.

 

At one point, Rand was ready to balefire an army of Borderlanders and use the Choedan Kal to wipe the Seanchan from the face of the world. Those are things that Forsaken would do.

 

Luckily, or so we think, he has a change of heart at the last minute, and jumps to Dragonmount to gain enlightenment... or so we think.

 

Perhaps Rand was not worried about 13 Aes Sedai shielding him because he knew he could call upon the True Power at any moment. Would a truly enlightened Rand have put himself into a situation where he knew he might have to risk using the True Power?

 

Perhaps the whole purpose of the encounter at Shayol Ghul was to trick Moridin. Ishamael thought the Dark One's victory would give him eternal rest, but what if the destruction of Creation had never been the Dark One's purpose? What would Moridin have done if he found out?

 

The weaving of the world that might be was Rand debating with himself. Remember he's already schizophrenic at this point. If he was fully consumed by the Dark One, he might not even realize it, and instead constructed an elaborate "battle" in his mind.

[James Sedai]

Well that's very different to Rand being the dark one the whole time.

 

By increments throughout the story and for the whole of aMoL? I certainly see theres a case to be made for it working that way.

To partially escape, but require Rand to come to Shayol Ghul to complete the transition maybe?

If the wheel theme of endless cycles is applied then the Dragon and the Dark One must swap places eventually.

 

I think that it's possible that during the final weave-off the current dark one remembered the desire to live and stopped wanting to impose desolation, but wanted to become part of it again.

 

He had a memory of light, eh?

 

Remember, no-one is so deep in the shadow they cannot walk again in the light.

And light a pipe.

[Matt Wolf]

I don't know how this plays into it, but remember that the pattern used Rand to counterbalance the DO. As the seals on the DO's prison weakened and it was able to touch the world more directly, causing drought, famine, food spoilage, etc, the stronger its influence, the stronger Rand's positive influence was, as well. Food became unspoiled and sweet in his presence. Grass grew. A whole grove of apples grew and ripened. A grove of great trees grew. To me, that indicates that Rand is still within the Pattern, being used BY the Pattern. The DO is outside the Pattern, but can influence it itself.

[James Sedai]

4 hours ago, Matthew Garland said:

I don't know how this plays into it, but remember that the pattern used Rand to counterbalance the DO. As the seals on the DO's prison weakened and it was able to touch the world more directly, causing drought, famine, food spoilage, etc, the stronger its influence, the stronger Rand's positive influence was, as well. Food became unspoiled and sweet in his presence. Grass grew. A whole grove of apples grew and ripened. A grove of great trees grew. To me, that indicates that Rand is still within the Pattern, being used BY the Pattern. The DO is outside the Pattern, but can influence it itself.

Taking into account the positive influence on his surroundings Rand has,  post dragonmount epiphany, I certainly prefer the idea of any body/persona switch occurring entirely during the final consciousness duel. 

 

[szilard]

Do you remember the last conversation between Moi and Rand?

There is a poem by Hemingway called The Old Man and the Sea. Read it, and you will get your answers. If you have time you could read For Whom the Bell Tolls, from which RJ heavily drew inspiration. (It's like reading a condensed version of WOT.)

 

Quote

 

I know that was supposed to be a listing of what Rand has in his favor, but the fact is that he is walking the razor's edge, barely hanging onto his sanity and growing more paranoid all the time, barely hanging onto putative allies, most of whom would just as soon see him go away in the hope that then everything would be the way it was before he showed up, confronted by enemies on every side. In short he has challenges enough for ten men. I've had people write to say they can't see how Rand is going to untangle all of this and get humanity ready to face the Last Battle. What I say is, what you believe to be true is not always true. What you think is going to happen is not always going to happen. That has been demonstrated time and again in The Wheel of Time. You could call those two statements one of the themes of the books.

 

You didn't think all it would take is for Rand to show up at the Last Battle, did you? According to the Prophecies, the Light has no chance without him, but his presence doesn't ensure victory, just that the Light has a chance. Gotta stiffen your legs and blink the blood out of your eyes. Gotta suck it up and find that punch. Three minutes to go, and you gotta find that knockout. That's your only chance.

 

Robert Jordan

 

 

How do you define the term, The Last Battle?
What does it mean at all?
Last as ultimate, as final?
Battle? Does it have to be a battle to bring to an end this Age?
What kind of battle? External or internal (Rand's head)? A real battle in his head or just a struggle with himself alone? #solipsism

 

Quote

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?”

(Terrible book. Terrible.)

 

Who is the DO? Why is he a he? The Dragon Reborn is always a male, so it would be more fitting for him to be a 'woman'. (Ofc, he could mean male and female.)
Maybe the Creator was the first appearance of the DO?
Maybe Rand is the Creator and the DO at the same time?

 

Quote

Ich bin, um es in Räthselform auszudrücken, als mein Vater bereits gestorben, als meine Mutter lebe ich noch und werde alt.

It was much discussed that the DO (who sees everything at once) is way too much humanized. Why is that? Is that a tip from Jordan?

 

Quote

“Unless the Dragon Reborn breaks free,” Rand said quietly. “To break the Wheel of Time, and remake Time and the world in his own image.” emphasized and changed from the "Dark One" by me

 

This the key. Or not.

[Sabio]

So is this when we discover Shai'tan is really the old tongue for Rand?

[mlva919]

Seem a bit far fetched.  In the end the hero road off into the sunset. An ending that would fit with an epic like WOT.  RJ has also hinted in interviews that the series would have a happy ending. 

 

I have alway thought that rand died.  His pipe reacted the way we would expect a pipe to react in the world of dreams.  So we have to ask how was he in the world of dreams?  The death of landfear shows us that at that moment in that time and that place the real world and the world of dreams were the same place.  I suggest that he died as was ridding off into the world of dreams.  The books hinted that the dragon might be bound to the horn.  This would explain why he went there after death.  The next question is if he is dead why didn't the three loose their connection?  They are dead as well or death did not break the connection.  I think death did not break the connection.  The way they were bonded was unique it is not the warder bond.  It is not the wise one bond.  It is something else.  We have one bond involving love that transcends death.  Birgitte and Gaidal Cain are bonded in way that was not fully explained.   Birgitte even express fear that the bond was broken.  This would fit with the love is the meaning of life theme.  It also explains to live you must die.   (live on in the world of dreams, finally be granted peace.)

[jack of shadows]

@mlva919,

"i have alway thought that rand died..."

no he didn't,post last battle rand was definitely alive in the real world,

there are three point of views contradicting your statement,

let's start with min:"feeling the pulsing throb of the bond in the back

of her mind.it grew stronger each moment."

from min point of view we learn not only that rand is alive but also

the bond is still intact.

 

another point of view is from aviendha:"now we make sure that 

everyone well and TRULY BLIEVES he is gone."

 

another one is from cadsuane:"cadsuane watched him go.no need to

keep watching this sham of a funeral then."

 

lastly,as our legendary hero is riding off into the sunset he is wondering:

"i wonder which of them will follow me."

why would a dead man be concerned which one will follow him?

 

in the last three pages of a memory of light there are tonne clues indicating

rand is alive and well in the real world.

 

as to how did rand managed to light his pipe,well,that's a completely 

different discussion.

Edited March 1, 2018 by jack of shadows

[Sururi]

On 2/16/2018 at 8:22 PM, jack of shadows said:

@mlva919,

"i have alway thought that rand died..."

no he didn't,post last battle rand was definitely alive in the real world,

there are three point of views contradicting your statement,

let's start with min:"feeling the pulsing throb of the bond in the back

of her mind.it grew stronger each moment."

from min point of view we learn not only that rand is alive but also

the bond is still intact.

 

another point of view is from aviendha:"now we make sure that 

everyone well and TRULY BLIEVES he is gone."

 

another one is from cadsuane:"cadsuane watched him go.no need to

keep watching this sham of a funeral then."

 

lastly,as our legendary hero is riding off into the sunset he is wondering:

"i wonder which of them will follow me."

why would a dead man be concerned which one will follow him?

 

in the last three pages of a memory of light there are tonne clues indicating

rand is alive and well in the real world.

 

as to how did rand managed to light his pipe,well,that's a completely 

different discussion.

Is there a topic about the last sentence  of yours? How did he light his pipe???

[The Gambler Matrim]

On 2/5/2018 at 4:42 AM, Topazy said:

This is a good idea for sure.

The same idea was involved in the books of Stephen King.Especially under your description gets book IT.

Dancing Clown PENNYWISE,This is an antagonist who impressed me a lot more than the main characters.

-Regards Topazy.

Spoiler alert for Stephen King's IT. Pennywise does die at the end but some of her children "may" have survived. Evidence being Peenywise Lives in the Dreamcatcher and aclown waving from the sewer drain in Tommyknockers. I believe the deadlights were still alive so her children would still have access to it.

[wotfan4472]

Except, Robert Jordan wrote The Wheel of Time, some of the themes included how the views of hope, love, despair and hate were present in the story and how those views shaped the world.  

 

I absolutely reject the theory that Rand is the Dark One. The figure of Hope and sacrifice at the Last Battle actually the figure of despair and submission?  I thought Moridin embodied those beliefs, or why enjoy his villainy?? or Ishamael's villainy for that matter. There are plenty of books that have that flipped. Those for me are depressing stories, and ones I do not like at all, and do not like the messages they show. I love and thoroughly enjoy what I read in these books. 

 

These are stories where the worst villains eventually get what they deserve, instead of those villains walking away to get pats on the head for success. It is good to read a story that has that clear good message. It has been lost too much in other stories I have read. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by wotfan4472

[jsbrads]

But if the Dark One was Rand, he also took on the warded bond with the women and love of the women... then living a happy go lucky life from this point on, he would love his children, and fake it until he made it with everyone else, so DO would become the good guy.

meanwhile Rand would be in The Box for 3000ish years and want to end the world when they try to open the Bore...

[Zorlon]

@szilard The Dragon Reborn may(or may not) always be male, but the Dragon is not always male. Jordan explicitly stated there is also a female Dragon soul.

 

And of course Rand was not the DO, he was a PoV character for crying out loud.

 

As for who won the Last Battle, I would say Fain.

 

We know a bit of him was absorbed by Mashadar, and we know Mashadar has learned to exit the ways, and we know it lives in a seperate world where removing the DO's influence does not remove the product of that influence, and we know not even the entire Tower could be certain of destroying it.

 

Just a matter of time until the Wind gets out and starts doing Fain stuff.

[wotfan4472]

No, Fain most deffinitely lost the battle. He never achieved the reason he was present at Thakan'dar in the first place. It also supports Min's viewing that all three must be at Tar'mon Gaidon or all is lost. The fight at Thakan'dar is this very fight, since Lanfear's attack is at the exact same moment as Fain's attack, and Rand grabbing the DO.  This requires both Mat and Perrin to counter. It also means the Light's defenses had totally collapsed by then, thanks to the rampaging Wild Hunt. As for the winner of the Last Battle, it was clearly shared between Mat, Egwene and Lan, considering the Last Battle was at the time a secondary engagement being fought at Merrilor, and won just a few days before, so Rand could do what he had to without Demandred or M'hail storming through the location and killing him. The distortions around Shayol Ghul actually helped to stop those possibilities from happening.

Edited September 4, 2019 by wotfan4472

[Camlen]

On 9/3/2019 at 10:58 PM, wotfan4472 said:

The distortions around Shayol Ghul actually helped to stop those possibilities from happening.

This, among some of the other things have begun to make me question the dark one's intentions.

I get that "evil is self defeating" but what if it's more than that.

 

Semirrhage was, for instance, reportedly ordered to send shadowspawn to fight shadowspawn in Tear. This isn't self defeating, this is rather intentional.

 

What if the Dark One was the Victor, not because he succeeded in destroying the pattern or because he swapped with the dragon, but because he acheived what he set out to achieve in raising Rand.

 

The way the DO communicates to Rand after he touches the shade of shaidar haran is almost like that of a teacher in the way that he criticizes rands attempts.

 

Perhaps the last battle is the dark one's way of repairing the bore himself, entrusting only a worthy adversary to wield those powers necessary without ruining creation. 

 

Think of how much the Dark One's servants pushed rand into the man he becomes. In the portal worlds and in egwenes accepted test we see a world where the two Rivers is never attacked and Rand eventually succumbs to the dark one's taint. If he really wanted to deal with Rand then he would have simply ignored him and let his very existence destroy him.

 

For some reason the dark one needs Rand to be the dragon.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Camlen

[solarz]

56 minutes ago, Camlen said:

This, among some of the other things have begun to make me question the dark one's intentions.

I get that "evil is self defeating" but what if it's more than that.

 

Semirrhage was, for instance, reportedly ordered to send shadowspawn to fight shadowspawn in Tear. This isn't self defeating, this is rather intentional.

 

What if the Dark One was the Victor, not because he succeeded in destroying the pattern or because he swapped with the dragon, but because he acheived what he set out to achieve in raising Rand.

 

The way the DO communicates to Rand after he touches the shade of shaidar haran is almost like that of a teacher in the way that he criticizes rands attempts.

 

Perhaps the last battle is the dark one's way of repairing the bore himself, entrusting only a worthy adversary to wield those powers necessary without ruining creation. 

 

Think of how much the Dark One's servants pushed rand into the man he becomes. In the portal worlds and in egwenes accepted test we see a world where the two Rivers is never attacked and Rand eventually succumbs to the dark one's taint. If he really wanted to deal with Rand then he would have simply ignored him and let his very existence destroy him.

 

For some reason the dark one needs Rand to be the dragon.

 

No, all jests aside, the point of AMOL is that the only way for the Dark One to win is if all of humanity voluntarily turned to him. In other words, so long as one person resists him, the Dark One has failed to achieve victory.

 

It might sound like a tall order, but remember that he has an eternity to work on it.