Elaida's Escape from the Seanchan

[Orderofolde]

Here's something fun that should provide some discussion.  So, I had this idea in my head since last night while listening to the audiobooks.  Tuon and the court are impressed once Elaida stops begging and crying and creates a Gateway for them.  It would be a simple matter for her to escape her Seanchan captors while making a gateway.  Either the suldame or Elaida steps through first and she simply releases the power, thus severing the leash and destroying the a'dam Ter'angreal.  This should work as long as she doesn't think about using the gateway as a weapon to kill her suldame, just severing the leash.  Damane are quick to release the power so as not to displease their captors, it was always embracing the power or using it against their wishes that caused pain or was blocked by the a'dam.

 

The only downside I can think of would be if in the severing of the Suldame's leash allowing her to move any number of steps, as if the bracelet was hung on a peg in a room.  If that happened, she would be stuck unless she opened a gateway into the White Tower and threw herself on the mercies of the sisters, who she doesn't know understand how to open an a'dam's collar but would be a logical place to travel to(she doesn't know she has been replaced yet).  Skimming wouldn't work as releasing the power would make any platform vanish, though sisters are supposed to be calm and collected and should be able to puzzle out opening another gateway to fall through or reestablishing the platform.

 

So, what do you all think? 

[wotfan4472]

I do not think Elaida could do that. If Rand could not do anything, then Elaida could not. It is simply the fact that the a dam also allows some control of the damane besides channelling saidar. She simply would be unable to act even if she thought of it.

[Orderofolde]

I do not think Elaida could do that. If Rand could not do anything, then Elaida could not. It is simply the fact that the a dam also allows some control of the damane besides channelling saidar. She simply would be unable to act even if she thought of it.

She couldn't release the power with one of them on each side of a gateway?  Why not?  She isn't trying to channel or embrace the source but rid herself of it in that moment.  And Rand's situation was different a little.  He was more controlled than a Damane with an a'dam.  Semi made him move as well as channel, forced him to choke Min.  An a'dam doesn't physically control a person beyond their channeling, it makes someone feel like they are being harmed, even hitting their Suldame they feel it ten times but no physical marks.  We even saw from Egwene's POV that she could channel a trickle when the Suldame left her bracelet on the peg, so it is flawed in that way too, though it was difficult.  The best you can say of an a'dam's physical control is making someone sick up, or restricts them from moving the bracelet more than a step and keeps them tethered.  A Damane can open and release herself from the a'dam if she knows the trick on opening it.  The girls practiced this at Falme iirc before the rescue though I have seen mention later on in the series that it isn't possible, but this is simply a belief, like the Aes Sedai thought that if the shadow blew the HOV the heroes would have to fight for the shadow.  This wasn't true.  The heroes also would need LTT's sign in order to fight.

[wotfan4472]

She could not because it would require the sul dam to allow her to make it. The only chance for escape was the very first time she made it. But, more importantly it would have killed her instantly from being too far from her suldam since they develop symptoms of illness when they get more than a few feet from the bracelet. The difference with the girls is that they are not collared by someone whom does not want them to be free. There wete moments when certain suldam told their damane not to go near the bracelet under any circumstances then observed them. They got ill just by thinking about it. There was one suldam that said this was frowned upon because one damane actually died from touching it. She favoured other ways of training, especially the very strong willed damane.

[BFG]

I'm pretty confident that as the sul'dam can channel story progressed we learnt that the sul'dam can control the flows, the relationship is more complicated/involved than just 'ordering' the damane, although that's part of it especially for new sul'dam

[BFG]

I'm also pretty sure that Egwene is prevented from releasing the source, but it's been a long time since I've read the start of the series so may be misremembering.

 

Of course, the sul'dam also needs to be paying attention (eg punching the sul'dam after being captured)

[Orderofolde]

She could not because it would require the sul dam to allow her to make it. The only chance for escape was the very first time she made it. But, more importantly it would have killed her instantly from being too far from her suldam since they develop symptoms of illness when they get more than a few feet from the bracelet. The difference with the girls is that they are not collared by someone whom does not want them to be free. There wete moments when certain suldam told their damane not to go near the bracelet under any circumstances then observed them. They got ill just by thinking about it. There was one suldam that said this was frowned upon because one damane actually died from touching it. She favoured other ways of training, especially the very strong willed damane.

But the very instant the leash is severed the a'dam is destroyed thus the link is broken.  Elayne developed Moggy's special necklace and bracelet setup that took the basis of the a'dam and improved it so that it didn't need the leash, sort of like going from ethernet to wifi.  Cut the ethernet cord and the connection is broken.  I just remembered that we see this effect with the doorframe ter'angreal when it melts after Moiraine and Lanfear go through it, Lan's bond is broken.  And this is just a hypothetical.  Elaida likely will be teaching others among the Damane to make the traveling weave, and I am sure she will go through a gateway at some point, usually walking behind the sul'dam to pass through a gateway.  The return through one would be ideal, otherwise she would be trapped with other seanchan at one of their areas/bases.  It would have to be timed right and she couldn't be thinking about the escape all the time otherwise the sul'dam would sense it and make her blubber and carry on with how much she loves being a captive, I'm just focused on the mechanics of the issue, should she find the opportunity, would it work?

[Orderofolde]

I'm also pretty sure that Egwene is prevented from releasing the source, but it's been a long time since I've read the start of the series so may be misremembering.

 

Of course, the sul'dam also needs to be paying attention (eg punching the sul'dam after being captured)

Most of the issues involve the sul'dam punishing the damane after an action or for failure to act, or for striking them, and usually for making them feel varying levels of pain or pleasure.  If they had full control Melatine wouldn't have been so embarrassed in front of Tuon trying to make Elaida shut up and do as she was told.

[Orderofolde]

I am sure we can have a better discussion if we remove Elaida from the equation and replace her with a Wise One captured by the Seanchan that can figure this escape out, or a Wind Finder.  Elaida just doesn't get it on so many levels, lol.

[solarz]

But the very instant the leash is severed the a'dam is destroyed thus the link is broken.  Elayne developed Moggy's special necklace and bracelet setup that took the basis of the a'dam and improved it so that it didn't need the leash, sort of like going from ethernet to wifi.  Cut the ethernet cord and the connection is broken.  I just remembered that we see this effect with the doorframe ter'angreal when it melts after Moiraine and Lanfear go through it, Lan's bond is broken.  And this is just a hypothetical.  Elaida likely will be teaching others among the Damane to make the traveling weave, and I am sure she will go through a gateway at some point, usually walking behind the sul'dam to pass through a gateway.  The return through one would be ideal, otherwise she would be trapped with other seanchan at one of their areas/bases.  It would have to be timed right and she couldn't be thinking about the escape all the time otherwise the sul'dam would sense it and make her blubber and carry on with how much she loves being a captive, I'm just focused on the mechanics of the issue, should she find the opportunity, would it work?

 

No, the leash is not necessary for the a'dam to function. Elayned commented on that when she first started studying it.

[Sabio]

The leash is just for physical control over the damane, its not needed for actually controlling the power.  It's possible the Seanchan do not know this, most likely that's the way it was built, so that's the way they have kept it.

[Guest JackOTheShadows]

 

But the very instant the leash is severed the a'dam is destroyed thus the link is broken.  Elayne developed Moggy's special necklace and bracelet setup that took the basis of the a'dam and improved it so that it didn't need the leash, sort of like going from ethernet to wifi.  Cut the ethernet cord and the connection is broken.  I just remembered that we see this effect with the doorframe ter'angreal when it melts after Moiraine and Lanfear go through it, Lan's bond is broken.  And this is just a hypothetical.  Elaida likely will be teaching others among the Damane to make the traveling weave, and I am sure she will go through a gateway at some point, usually walking behind the sul'dam to pass through a gateway.  The return through one would be ideal, otherwise she would be trapped with other seanchan at one of their areas/bases.  It would have to be timed right and she couldn't be thinking about the escape all the time otherwise the sul'dam would sense it and make her blubber and carry on with how much she loves being a captive, I'm just focused on the mechanics of the issue, should she find the opportunity, would it work?

 

No, the leash is not necessary for the a'dam to function. Elayned commented on that when she first started studying it.

 

In Fires of Heaven (book 5), Elayne says:

“It is a strange link, though. Different. Instead of two or more sharing, with one guiding, it is one taking full control, really. I think that is the reason a damane cannot do anything the sul’dam doesn’t want her to. I don’t really believe there is any need for the leash. The collar and bracelet would work as well without it, and in just the same ways.”

 

The a'dam would likely still work, regardless of distance between the two halves, if severed by a gateway... if the sul'dam didn't stop her, the second the thought occurred to her. 

[Sabio]

I would imagine distance would come into play at sometime,  would need to be pretty powerful if the Sul'dam was in Seanchan and the damane was in Randland.

[Orderofolde]

Yes, I seem to remember that piece now which was her inspiration for making the necklace and bracelet as separate pieces.  Well, it seems like Elaida is well and truly stuck.  Great News, lol!

[dexterryu]

I think this is an interesting theory... but someone would have to be really brave to test it out since it's potentially life threatening to both the sul'dam and damane. I don't recall the specifics of the tether on the seanchan a'dam. I know Elayne made hers without the tether but not whether or not the seanchan version required it (if I recall in TGH it was partially there to keep Damane from jumping off ledges).

[jack of shadows]

Elaida didn't strike me as particularly brave.LOL.

[Maedelin]

Please remember (And this is not an apologist post for Elaida) that Elaida's personality was badly affected by Padan Fain.  He screwed with her psyche as he did with Toram Riatin and to a lesser extent Pedron Niall, to name a few.  The woman we briefly saw in EotW, tGH, and tSR was different tonally in those books from the woman we met after Fain left the WT.

 

Regardless of that, those aspects of Elaida must have existed within her prior to his departure or else there would not have been this change.

[jack of shadows]

in your opinion,did padan fain corrupt elaida to some degree?

[Maedelin]

in your opinion,did padan fain corrupt elaida to some degree?

Yes.  He made her more paranoid, and it grew until she was not just a bad decision to put a Red Ajah member on the Seat, but to be a terrible Aes Sedai and human being in the end.  We saw it in CoS with Toram Riatin so quickly falling under Fain's control.  His meetings with Elaida did this to her.  What surprises me is how Niall was barely touched by him, but I think that's more of an analysis of the CoL and Niall's own persona.

 

The taint of Shadar Logoth is strong, and even the smallest of cuts could corrupt and kill quickly.  It nearly killed Matt, turned him massively paranoid, Fain was corrupted by it, and those who spent their time with Fain were destroyed as well. (The CoL who followed him and the Darkfriends as well)

[jack of shadows]

just an observation,rand did spend more time with mat than anyone during their eye of

the world journey,yet,he was completely unaffected by the shadar logoth taint.

[Maedelin]

just an observation,rand did spend more time with mat than anyone during their eye of

the world journey,yet,he was completely unaffected by the shadar logoth taint.

He did indeed.  However, this was before Fain had the dagger in his clutches.  So I don't think it's 100% the same.

[Sabio]

Also from the time Mat got the dagger til lMoriane did her thing only a few weeks went by I believe. I think it needs to take over Mat before he can start to taint others.

[Orderofolde]

 

in your opinion,did padan fain corrupt elaida to some degree?

Yes.  He made her more paranoid, and it grew until she was not just a bad decision to put a Red Ajah member on the Seat, but to be a terrible Aes Sedai and human being in the end.  We saw it in CoS with Toram Riatin so quickly falling under Fain's control.  His meetings with Elaida did this to her.  What surprises me is how Niall was barely touched by him, but I think that's more of an analysis of the CoL and Niall's own persona.

 

The taint of Shadar Logoth is strong, and even the smallest of cuts could corrupt and kill quickly.  It nearly killed Matt, turned him massively paranoid, Fain was corrupted by it, and those who spent their time with Fain were destroyed as well. (The CoL who followed him and the Darkfriends as well)

 

Not only more paranoid, but she became very grandiose in her desires.  The new palace/tower she was building, her inability to tolerate small things like the Sitters and how easily she gave in to Alviarin.    

[Orderofolde]

 

in your opinion,did padan fain corrupt elaida to some degree?

Yes.  He made her more paranoid, and it grew until she was not just a bad decision to put a Red Ajah member on the Seat, but to be a terrible Aes Sedai and human being in the end.  We saw it in CoS with Toram Riatin so quickly falling under Fain's control.  His meetings with Elaida did this to her.  What surprises me is how Niall was barely touched by him, but I think that's more of an analysis of the CoL and Niall's own persona.

 

The taint of Shadar Logoth is strong, and even the smallest of cuts could corrupt and kill quickly.  It nearly killed Matt, turned him massively paranoid, Fain was corrupted by it, and those who spent their time with Fain were destroyed as well. (The CoL who followed him and the Darkfriends as well)

 

Niall wasn't "barely touched," in my opinion.  Just look at what he orders the White Cloaks and Carridin to do, and put Fain in control not only of the killing the White Cloaks (Questioners) were doing on Almoth Plain, but put Fain in a position of power for the Two Rivers Campaign.  Bornhald cannot fathom why Ordeith was given such sway and notes with disgust the corruption of the Children that were in Fain's camp.  If he wasn't bothered so much with revenge for his father, he might have put a stop to it rather than seeing Fain as a somewhat necessary evil.  

 

As to Niall, Niall wanted to expand the position of the Children, but was tempered to gains and victories through negotiations in more recent times following the White Cloak War long ago.  Then his temperance and caution and wisdom are eroded by Fain and the dark side emerges allowing him to miss the machinations among his own people and die for it while trying to gain more lands and influence.

[Orderofolde]

just an observation,rand did spend more time with mat than anyone during their eye of

the world journey,yet,he was completely unaffected by the shadar logoth taint.

It is likely that since he was being corrupted by the taint on the OP, this equal yet different evil might have staved off obvious signs of corruption.  We see later that the two wounds on his side, the TP taint from Ishy's staff wound and Fain's dagger wound over the spot worked against each other.  We also see this cancel out and leave a giant hole where Shadar Logoth was when the taint is cleansed from the source.  At least my theory, when I was wondering about it.