Taim - DF on the Get Go or No?

[Magneto]

I have been reading some of the past discussions on Mazrim Taim and found that a lot of readers tend to think that Taim was a dark friend, right from the beginning.

 

I personally would like to offer my thoughts, that Taim was not a darkfriend at all when he first appeared before Rand, and here are my reasons:

 

1. A darkfriend would not help Rand build an army of male channellers to further his power, whatever his reasons or the DO's. Unless the DO was truly stupid.

 

2. If Taim was a darkfriend right from the beginning, he would recruit only darkfriend channelers and solidify his BlackTower or recruit people who he could turn against Rand, instead of letting some of the good guys like Flinn or Narishma doing the recruiting. Because as we know later on, only a fraction of BT were personally henchmen of Taim, not everyone.

 

3. There was a line which strikes me as interesting and evidence that Taim was actually good at the beginning.

From pg 765 of Lord of Chaos -

... Shivering, he looked at Taim and was surprised to see concern on the man's face.

"You must hold on", Taim said softly."If sanity can be held, you must. The price is too high, if you fail."

 

Now, would a DF say something like that to Rand. And from Rand's POV, he really did see concern on Taim's face.

 

4. A darkfriend would have let Rand die at Dumai's Well. Taim actually cared enough to rescue Rand. Or unless the DO ordered it, which seemed pretty stupid to me why the DO would rescue Rand time and again.

 

So now that I'm done with the evidence, here is my take on what transpired to make Taim turn toward the Shadow.

1. Taim was just an arrogant prick who was too proud to be second to anyone, especially the true DR, who keeps putting him down and barked at him whenever necessary.

2. He was approached by one of the Forsaken, possibly Ishamael/Morridin or Demandred, and given an offer of greater rewards and glory, and immortality.

3. After some time, he felt that Rand could not possibly win against the DO and he was on the losing side. And Taim hated losing.

 

Now, the only thing that is still a mystery to me is when did Taim turn?

[Sabio]

I always thought he became a DF after, since it always seemed unlikely the DO would give up a seal willingly.  But the companion shot that theory down as it said Demandred freed him and gave him a choice to join or go to the WT.  Taim joined and the seal was to ensure he could gain Rand's trust.  Almost everything you posted is what I originally thought.

 

He couldn't simply recruit just Df's, since he might not of found many.  His  tactic was to simply go to a town and say he was here for the dragon reborn, he played up the grand adventure aspects to help entice men.  Those who failed went to the legion of the dragon.  While teaching the Asha'man he could then look for the ones with a darker aspect and give them special training.  This way he could show Rand how well he had done while secretly building the DO forces.  Also ther came a time where he could no longer justify doing al lthe recruiting himself.  So eventually he would have to let others do it.

 

Taim had good reason to be worried, notice he never said for the world or anything.  Without Rand there was a good chance he would of needed to fight his wait out of Andor and with no army.  Also he was only of use to Dem if he could earn Rand's trust.  Without Rand, Taim was simply a DF who could channel.

 

Taim had no choice, he didn't dare risk Rand going to the WT and only Rand knew where the seals were.  There also might of been orders that Rand was not to be killed.  Not to mention what would Taim love more then a chance to kill Aes Sedai and turn his Asha'man loose.

[jsbrads]

Taim was quiet old channeler for that time. Perhaps he survived with the protection of DO qed DF.

Taim was glad to be given some responsibility in tBT. Had he not helped, all male channelers might have been good.

Also at the end they turned some good guys too. Had things gone as they wished, they could have turned all of them. A risk, but with great risk...

As to all the helping Rand, concern, etc. it could have been self serving. Rand going mad too early and Taim loses tDT. Once in power, he knew he couldn't go against Rand with callendor or even fat man angreal, so create whatever trust he could until the right time.

DFs live undercover for their entire lives. Taim could have been turned before start of story, 10+ yrs ago.

[dexterryu]

A lot of it depends on if you believe that when RJ first wrote Taim that he was Demandred in disguise. I think somewhere or other Terez shared some early notes stating that at the time it was written it was Dem posing as Taim, but later changed it due to being frustrated by how easily fans figured it out.

 

So if that's the case then (obviously) he was always a DF.

 

On the other hand there is a good argument to be made for each case. The man was brutal and ruthless when it came to pushing and training the male channelers. He almost always seemed to be a cross between cocky and ticked off. While those don't necessarily make him a DF the fact that he turned out to be in the end makes the argument for him always being a DF hold water.

 

On the other hand, in addition to the quotes Magneto listed... Rand treated him horribly. He was never kind to him so it would be easy to say that Rand basically drove him to it as well.

[Magneto]

I reread the later parts of the books and just like u guys said, he was recruited early and was a DF all along.

So I was kinda disappointed that Taim wasn't more than just an average DF right from the start.

 

It would have been a lot more interesting to see him turning from a misunderstood good guy with anger and pride issues to the dark side. Make for a deeper and more sophisticated antagonist, and drawing parallels to when the Forsaken used to be good guys turned bad.

 

Taim was quiet old channeler for that time. Perhaps he survived with the protection of DO qed DF.

Taim was glad to be given some responsibility in tBT. Had he not helped, all male channelers might have been good.

Also at the end they turned some good guys too. Had things gone as they wished, they could have turned all of them. A risk, but with great risk...

As to all the helping Rand, concern, etc. it could have been self serving. Rand going mad too early and Taim loses tDT. Once in power, he knew he couldn't go against Rand with callendor or even fat man angreal, so create whatever trust he could until the right time.

DFs live undercover for their entire lives. Taim could have been turned before start of story, 10+ yrs ago.

Interesting thought there. Is there any indication to say that the male channellers were all going to turn out to be good?

Also, I find that approaching Rand and setting up a base and then turning Ashamans into dreadlords to not that effective.

 

Isn't it better to setup a base at Shayol Ghul and just test for Saidin wielders and just take them there to train them? If they r not DFs just use 13 Aes Sedai and convert them. Y went through all the trouble? Y do the other and in the process gave an army of Ashaman for Rand? Isn't that a bigger risk?

[Sabio]

Wouldn't of been worth the time and effort to set up a base camp,  Mostly because no one thought there were that many about.  You would either have to just start kindapping folks to test them or wait til lthey start showing signs and try to beat the Red Ajah to the person.   So you either only test just DF's or have to start kidnapping a lot of people to test them.  Or you just look for people showing the signs.  Problem is most of the people in he BT were the ones who could channel but never would of without some sort of training.  

 

Taim was able to recruit, then he gave special training to those who had darker sides.  The DF's were allowed to learn weaves the others weren't, making them more powerful.  Then you slowly turn the others to your side.

[jack of shadows]

setup a base at shayol ghul?who in his right mind would go

voluntarily to a base in shayol ghul?taim was able to recruit

male channelers because he was operating under the dragon

reborn's political clout(and amnesty),without it,he was a nobody,

just another false dragon.

[bigdoug1971]

Taim was recruited by the Forsaken.  This is stated outright in AMOL.  I don't believe he was a darkfriend when Rand 1st met him, but the same scenario played out with Demandred during the AOL.  Taim was strong and he wanted to be the Dragon.  Taim wanted to share power with Rand, not take orders from him.  He was soured on Rand and was ripe for the picking when the Forsaken came along to recruit him.  

Edited July 15, 2017 by bigdoug1971

[Orderofolde]

You make some good points, especially Taim's concern when he witnesses Rand's slip.  But, I refer you to Ingtar, who was Rand's friend and while mostly driven and a Borderland personality he admitted Rand was a good choice to be named his second in command, and was Rand's friend.  Ingtar did turn to the light and sacrifice himself at Falme so Rand and company could get away.  Even a Darkfriend and channeler would know the significance if the DR went mad before the last battle.  So it could be either or.  He was full of himself and a womanizer but at some point he does go over.  I just wonder if he was turned or not.  Demandred had access to the Black Ajah and Fades, so...who knows?  Or maybe not, because he didn't have the look in his eye.  It certainly makes for an interesting debate.

[Orderofolde]

I did want to mention that the DO had little to do with wanting male channelers trained.  That was the forsaken, masking their need of dreadlords for the last battle sneaking darkfriends in after they tested with the spark or the ability to learn.  In the end, they were turning channelers to their side for two reasons:  !. To increase their numbers.  2.  To weaken the armies of light.  My question was what the whole deal was quarrying black stone from Shayol Ghul that appeared at the Black Tower towards the End.  Taim and his Dredlords wanted it for something, or maybe the powers it held, or the DO's essence?

[jsbrads]

I never intended to state ALL men would be good. In a vaccuum, most men aren't DFs. DO needs trollocs and Fades to fight.