Important Question About Ishamael

[True Source Creator]

I just finished Winter's Heart today. The ending with the Choedan Kal was phenomenal. It was the first time we get so many of the Forsaken striking at Rand at once. It also revealed a lot. Previously, I had guessed Lanfear was either Moridin (Naeblis) or Cyndane. I was therefore unsurprised when the chapter revealed she was Cyndane. I also knew Aran'gar was Balthamael. Now I have one question concerning Osan'gar. In his appearance in the chapter, he claims to be the creator of the Trollocs and, by extent, the Mydraul. Now, I can't recall exactly, but wasn't Ishamael the creator of the Trollocs? I could have sworn one of the first two or three books mentioned that it was him. So, by that knowledge, I'm thinking Osan'gar is Ishamael. HOWEVER...another oddity appeared in that character. Osan'gar was thinking how ironic it would be if he was the hero of the day (if he was the one that killed Rand), which leads me to suspect that he could be Asmodean resurrected. So my question is, "Did Ishamael create the Trollocs?"

 

 

This makes the identity of Moridin even more obscure. I was certain that if it wasn't Lanfear it had to be Ishamael, especially with the Forsaken describing him as "a part of the Dark One".

[GYLD]

Aginor, the other forsaken killed in Eye of the World, made the trollocs and other shadowspawn.

[True Source Creator]

Aginor, the other forsaken killed in Eye of the World, made the trollocs and other shadowspawn.

I thought it could be Aginor, too. Afterall, the first ones that died were he and Balthamael, and since Balthamael became Aran'gar, I toyed with the idea that Aginor would be Osan'gar. That also fits into the irony of him "being the hero of the day" for he was so quick to be defeated. I could have sworn Ishamael created the shadowspawn, but I guess I was mistaken.

[Beidomon]

Ever since the reincarnated Forsaken first showed up (in Lord of Chaos?), it seemed completely obvious to me that Lanfear was Cyndane, Balthamel was Aran'gar (DO chose a woman's body as ironic punishment because Balthamel was something like a serial rapist), Aginor was Osan'gar, and Moridin was Ishmael. I remember visiting this board years ago and being surprised that there was actually some debate on the subject. I wondered if I had missed something. As it turns out, it really was that obvious.

 

So, here's your scorecard through TGS:

1. Aginor (killed by Rand in EotW)

1a. Osan'gar (killed by Elza in WH, not coming back)

2. Balthamel (killed by Green Man in EotW)

2a. Aran'gar (still alive as of TGS)

3. Be'lal (balefired by Moraine in TDR, permanent)

4. Ishmael (killed by Rand in TDR)

4a. Moridin (still alive as of TGS)

5. Rhavin (balefired by Rand in TFH, permanent)

6. Asmodean (killed by ____ in TFH, not coming back per RJ)

7. Lanfear (killed after being pushed through ter'angreal by Moraine in TFH)

7a. Cyndane (still alive as of TGS, but mindtrapped by Moridin)

8. Sammael (killed in Shadar Logoth by Mashadar, not coming back)

9. Semirhage (balefired by Rand in TGS, permanent)

10. Demandred (still alive as of TGS)

11. Moghedien (still alive as of TGS, but mindtrapped by Moridin after events in WH)

12. Graendel (still alive as of TGS)

13. Mesaana (still alive as of TGS)

[yoniy0]

Yes, that is indeed cannon by now.

A question - why did you underline Lanfear instead of crossing her from the list?

[Beidomon]

Yes, that is indeed cannon by now.

A question - why did you underline Lanfear instead of crossing her from the list?

 

I really don't know. It was supposed to be a strikethrough like the others. Then my post was modified by a moderator to avoid ToM spoilers, even though it didn't contain any.

[herid]

Ever since the reincarnated Forsaken first showed up (in Lord of Chaos?), it seemed completely obvious to me that Lanfear was Cyndane, Balthamel was Aran'gar (DO chose a woman's body as ironic punishment because Balthamel was something like a serial rapist), Aginor was Osan'gar, and Moridin was Ishmael. I remember visiting this board years ago and being surprised that there was actually some debate on the subject. I wondered if I had missed something. As it turns out, it really was that obvious.

 

So, here's your scorecard through TGS:

1. Aginor (killed by Rand in EotW)

1a. Osan'gar (killed by Elza in WH, not coming back)

2. Balthamel (killed by Green Man in EotW)

2a. Aran'gar (still alive as of TGS)

3. Be'lal (balefired by Moraine in TDR, permanent)

4. Ishmael (killed by Rand in TDR)

4a. Moridin (still alive as of TGS)

5. Rhavin (balefired by Rand in TFH, permanent)

6. Asmodean (killed by ____ in TFH, not coming back per RJ)

7. Lanfear (killed by Moraine in TFH)

7a. Cyndane (still alive as of TGS, but mindtrapped by Moridin)

8. Sammael (killed in Shadar Logoth by Mashadar, not coming back)

9. Semirhage (balefired by Rand in TGS, permanent)

10. Demandred (still alive as of TGS)

11. Moghedien (still alive as of TGS, but mindtrapped by Moridin after events in WH)

12. Graendel (still alive as of TGS)

13. Mesaana (still alive as of TGS)

 

There is a slight mistake in your list. can't comment any further as it involves ToM stuff.

[Ashandarei]

There is a slight mistake in your list. can't comment any further as it involves ToM stuff.

 

There is a way to post spoilers without them being visible to everyone. One way is to click the list menu that says "Other styles" in the top left of the post editor before you post your reply. Another easy way is to simply type (spoiler)Example text(/spoiler) except using square brackets [] instead of parentheses. This is what it looks like:

 

Example text

 

 

That way only people who want to see the spoiler text will see it. That code can be used within quoted text from another post as well as with just normal text. Not saying you didn't know Herid, thought I'd post that just in case. It isn't there in the "Forum Rules & FAQ" thread in this board and all the links in the Forum Basics thread in the Forums 101 board are broken so unless you figured it yourself, the knowledge isn't available. I know I'd have liked to know how to do that before I learned by fiddling around a bit. It really ought to be in the FAQ thread in a board like this that requires no ToM spoilers.

[herid]

There is a slight mistake in your list. can't comment any further as it involves ToM stuff.

 

There is a way to post spoilers without them being visible to everyone. One way is to click the list menu that says "Other styles" in the top left of the post editor before you post your reply. Another easy way is to simply type (spoiler)Example text(/spoiler) except using square brackets [] instead of parentheses. This is what it looks like:

 

Example text

 

 

That way only people who want to see the spoiler text will see it. That code can be used within quoted text from another post as well as with just normal text. Not saying you didn't know Herid, thought I'd post that just in case. It isn't there in the "Forum Rules & FAQ" thread in this board and all the links in the Forum Basics thread in the Forums 101 board are broken so unless you figured it yourself, the knowledge isn't available. I know I'd have liked to know how to do that before I learned by fiddling around a bit. It really ought to be in the FAQ thread in a board like this that requires no ToM spoilers.

Thanks for the info! I did not know of this. I'm not sure I'm allowed to post ToM spoilers on this board even in this form but I'll keep this in mind.

Actually, I thought about it and I can say it without using anything from ToM. It's pretty certain as of tGS that Moiraine didn't die when she fell into the ter'angreal doorway with Lanfear. therefore there is no reason to assume that Lanfear died in the process either. something more interesting must have happened.

[yoniy0]

A question - why did you underline Lanfear instead of crossing her from the list?

I really don't know. It was supposed to be a strikethrough like the others. Then my post was modified by a moderator to avoid ToM spoilers, even though it didn't contain any.

It was I who edited your post. If you like, PM me and I'll let you know exactly why (I can't think of a way to do it that doesn't include spoilers). In any case, I didn't add the underline, it was there already.

 

I have to ask you all not to use 'spoiler' tags in this topic, though, as telling people exactly which Forsaken's status is considered a ToM-spoiler is the same as spoiling them.

[Sundance Kid]

Ever since the reincarnated Forsaken first showed up (in Lord of Chaos?), it seemed completely obvious to me that Lanfear was Cyndane, Balthamel was Aran'gar (DO chose a woman's body as ironic punishment because Balthamel was something like a serial rapist), Aginor was Osan'gar, and Moridin was Ishmael. I remember visiting this board years ago and being surprised that there was actually some debate on the subject. I wondered if I had missed something. As it turns out, it really was that obvious.

 

So, here's your scorecard through TGS:

1. Aginor (killed by Rand in EotW)

1a. Osan'gar (killed by Elza in WH, not coming back)

2. Balthamel (killed by Green Man in EotW)

2a. Aran'gar (still alive as of TGS)

3. Be'lal (balefired by Moraine in TDR, permanent)

4. Ishmael (killed by Rand in TDR)

4a. Moridin (still alive as of TGS)

5. Rhavin (balefired by Rand in TFH, permanent)

6. Asmodean (killed by ____ in TFH, not coming back per RJ)

7. Lanfear (killed by Moraine in TFH)

7a. Cyndane (still alive as of TGS, but mindtrapped by Moridin)

8. Sammael (killed in Shadar Logoth by Mashadar, not coming back)

9. Semirhage (balefired by Rand in TGS, permanent)

10. Demandred (still alive as of TGS)

11. Moghedien (still alive as of TGS, but mindtrapped by Moridin after events in WH)

12. Graendel (still alive as of TGS)

13. Mesaana (still alive as of TGS)

 

I understand that the ones balefired are permanently gone, but how do you know that some of the others are not coming back?

[Beidomon]

It's pretty certain as of tGS that Moiraine didn't die when she fell into the ter'angreal doorway with Lanfear. therefore there is no reason to assume that Lanfear died in the process either. something more interesting must have happened.

 

Whether Moraine was the most proximate cause of Lanfear's death is slicing it a little thin, in my opinion. Point is, we know Lanfear's dead because she was reincarnated as Cyndane, and we know that Moraine pushing Lanfear through the ter'angreal led to her death. Ergo, Moraine took that b*tch out! In my book, this heroic act seriously redeems Moraine's otherwise snotty, imperious character, so let's not take that away from her.

[Beidomon]

I understand that the ones balefired are permanently gone, but how do you know that some of the others are not coming back?

 

Because there's only two books left after TGS? Seriously, RJ said himself that Asmodean isn't coming back. I'm pretty sure he also confirmed that Sammael is not coming back. That leaves Osan'gar. You really think the DO's bringing Aginor back a third time after his first two abysmal performances? Let's not over-complicate this.

[herid]

It's pretty certain as of tGS that Moiraine didn't die when she fell into the ter'angreal doorway with Lanfear. therefore there is no reason to assume that Lanfear died in the process either. something more interesting must have happened.

 

Whether Moraine was the most proximate cause of Lanfear's death is slicing it a little thin, in my opinion. Point is, we know Lanfear's dead because she was reincarnated as Cyndane, and we know that Moraine pushing Lanfear through the ter'angreal led to her death. Ergo, Moraine took that b*tch out! In my book, this heroic act seriously redeems Moraine's otherwise snotty, imperious character, so let's not take that away from her.

I don't want to diminish the importance of Moiraine's actions but she didn't kill Lanfear.

[Beidomon]

It's pretty certain as of tGS that Moiraine didn't die when she fell into the ter'angreal doorway with Lanfear. therefore there is no reason to assume that Lanfear died in the process either. something more interesting must have happened.

 

Whether Moraine was the most proximate cause of Lanfear's death is slicing it a little thin, in my opinion. Point is, we know Lanfear's dead because she was reincarnated as Cyndane, and we know that Moraine pushing Lanfear through the ter'angreal led to her death. Ergo, Moraine took that b*tch out! In my book, this heroic act seriously redeems Moraine's otherwise snotty, imperious character, so let's not take that away from her.

I don't want to diminish the importance of Moiraine's actions but she didn't kill Lanfear.

 

I think it's a trivial distinction, but I edited my scorecard accordingly.

[herid]

 

I don't want to diminish the importance of Moiraine's actions but she didn't kill Lanfear.

 

I think it's a trivial distinction, but I edited my scorecard accordingly.

I disagree but I don't really want to discuss it here for fear of spoilers. I started a separate thread on the subject in the ToM forum.

[Songstress]

There is a slight mistake in your list. can't comment any further as it involves ToM stuff.

 

There is a way to post spoilers without them being visible to everyone. One way is to click the list menu that says "Other styles" in the top left of the post editor before you post your reply. Another easy way is to simply type (spoiler)Example text(/spoiler) except using square brackets [] instead of parentheses. This is what it looks like:

 

Example text

 

 

That way only people who want to see the spoiler text will see it. That code can be used within quoted text from another post as well as with just normal text. Not saying you didn't know Herid, thought I'd post that just in case. It isn't there in the "Forum Rules & FAQ" thread in this board and all the links in the Forum Basics thread in the Forums 101 board are broken so unless you figured it yourself, the knowledge isn't available. I know I'd have liked to know how to do that before I learned by fiddling around a bit. It really ought to be in the FAQ thread in a board like this that requires no ToM spoilers.

Thanks for the info! I did not know of this. I'm not sure I'm allowed to post ToM spoilers on this board even in this form but I'll keep this in mind.

Actually, I thought about it and I can say it without using anything from ToM. It's pretty certain as of tGS that Moiraine didn't die when she fell into the ter'angreal doorway with Lanfear. therefore there is no reason to assume that Lanfear died in the process either. something more interesting must have happened.

 

Actually there is another status change that we find out in ToM, but since that truly is a spoiler at the mod's request I won't even hint at which one it concerns.

[Sundance Kid]

I understand that the ones balefired are permanently gone, but how do you know that some of the others are not coming back?

 

Because there's only two books left after TGS? Seriously, RJ said himself that Asmodean isn't coming back. I'm pretty sure he also confirmed that Sammael is not coming back. That leaves Osan'gar. You really think the DO's bringing Aginor back a third time after his first two abysmal performances? Let's not over-complicate this.

 

 

Yeah, I agree with you that it is not likely. I just wondered if there were some reason to be completely sure.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I know that tGS spoilers are all well and good on this board, and that people probably didnt think of it, or did not see it. But you may want to edit some of your posts. (Although I suppose the damage is done.

 

I just finished Winter's Heart today.

 

As I said, it is not you guys' fault, its just a shame. Might want to either explicitly ask for no spoilers past WH (the poster)

or we read a bit more carefully.

 

:)

[mb]

[Removed]

[mb]

Directed toward Beidomom.

 

So, here's your scorecard through TGS:

1. Aginor (killed by Rand in EotW)

1a. Osan'gar (killed by Elza in WH, not coming back)

2. Balthamel (killed by Green Man in EotW)

2a. Aran'gar (still alive as of TGS)

3. Be'lal (balefired by Moraine in TDR, permanent)

4. Ishmael (killed by Rand in TDR)

4a. Moridin (still alive as of TGS)

5. Rhavin (balefired by Rand in TFH, permanent)

6. Asmodean (killed by ____ in TFH, not coming back per RJ)

7. Lanfear (killed after being pushed through ter'angreal by Moraine in TFH)

7a. Cyndane (still alive as of TGS, but mindtrapped by Moridin)

8. Sammael (killed in Shadar Logoth by Mashadar, not coming back)

9. Semirhage (balefired by Rand in TGS, permanent)

10. Demandred (still alive as of TGS)

11. Moghedien (still alive as of TGS, but mindtrapped by Moridin after events in WH)

12. Graendel (still alive as of TGS)

13. Mesaana (still alive as of TGS)

One of the "still alive" might be wrong. The person who placed Ramshalan's Compulsion has to be dead; which a non-Forsaken is unlikely.

 

[yoniy0]

@True Source Creator said he/she just finished WH. Perhaps we should be more careful not to spoil him/her. Do you mind enclosing that last statement in spoiler tags?