Yes, there is definitely the cool aspect, which I am totally cool with. Even if it also annoys me, lol. And the need for unique visuals, costume designers want distinct flavours for the show and for the different factions within it. There is also the expectation of the audience. In a book, you can say "he unstrung his bow as keeping it strung was not good for the string". You can say "he carried his unstrung bow like a staff". On TV you need to work that into the dialogue, you have to explain what the person is doing when unstringing and you probably need to keep reminding people. And when they are carrying an unstrung bow, the audience is going to see a stick. So, it is simply easier to not unstring bows, apply a little poetic license and conform to people's expectations about what a bow looks like.

Wow, this really is a deep discussion about BDSM. Probably I should just let this go, but... BDSM is about sex, it is about getting your kicks by roleplaying dom/sub. It is roleplaying because it is consensual. If you break up, the dom does not keep the sub locked in the basement. All that BDSM pornography where you see people tied up in dungeons have gone to a lot of effort to roleplay that dungeon. Because that is how those little puppies float their boats, which is all fine amongst consenting adults. Enslavement, sexual assault, breaking someone's will, etc, is not sexual. Even if people get off on it, it is primarily about power. It is about taking from the other person. Like if you have a slave, then you want to make sure they do what they are told. You have to assert yourself over them. It's not about a relationship or even sexual satisfaction. This is what BDSM roleplays. Like a novice being spanked for stealing honey cake, compared to someone pretending to be a novice being spanked because it is fun. Takes all sorts. It is a bit silly as we all know what everyone is talking about, and it is just that some people are applying the label of BDSM slightly incorrectly, it is not that probably anyone sees it differently, just what name we giving it. But there we are. On the a'dam maybe I am misreading it, and also it a made up thing, it certainly is not to say that there are not loopholes to be found, but I understood it is as if you were considering using the One Power to kill yourself, even just as a possibility, then you would not be able to embrace the source. Not at the point that you are going to try to do so in the heat of battle, but never ever. Not until you had convinced yourself that you would never do so. If the sul'dam ask you if you will be a good damane then they will know if you are holding back, if you are only playing along. And then they can make you think you are in a pot of boiling oil for a few hours, and then ask again, are you going to be a good damane. And you don't have to convince them that you will be good damane you have to convince yourself, that you will be, that you want to be. The a'dam does not let you resist even in your head.

*waves*

I knew that. You weren't threatening to hunt me down and..... Of course not. You would not come into my intro thread and threaten to hurt me, why would you? Why? Plus I'm a lot bigger than I look. Terrifying, actually. I'm not scared to walk about forums without someone holding my hand. Good, I'm glad you came along with me on that one, I would have felt foolish otherwise 🙂

I have filled out the form and am slightly intimidated by the rules. But think I understand them.

Yes, totally agree. Too many seem to have standards that the show cannot possibly meet, and they have the reason all ready for why it falls short of their impossible standards. Of course the show is not going to be perfect, and parts of it are distinctly dodgy. But look at the books, they have lots of flaws, lots of fans talk about picking the series up in the middle and that they would never have gotten past the first few books if the rest had not already been bought or available from a family member, etc. Others talk about the middle slog as life-draining. Many have issues with the ending. But away from the book forums on the show forums some treat the books as if they are the holy script and any change is sacrilege, and motivated by some dastardly plan. Meh.

I think that underestimates the sul'dam and the a'dam. They are not naive, and have broken hundreds of marath'damane so I think they would ask such questions as, you would never try to hurt yourself, or you would always obey, or such. And you cannot lie. I think in the books there was mention of not being able to cut fruit if you thought about hurting yourself with the knife. So that would mean that you could not think of hurting yourself with the power or you would be prevented from touching the source as long as you thought of it as a way hurting yourself, even potentially. It does not let you pretend to obey, Egwene was not refusing to pour the water - she couldn't until she had convinced herself that she would never ever even consider hitting Renna with it. You must obey completely, not pretend to do so, as I understood it at least. Just like if they gave you a new name, you could not internally still call yourself by your old one, you had to convince yourself that it was your name, that you wanted it to be your name, that you would always want it to be your name, because through the a'dam they can read your feelings at least if not your thoughts, and if they tell you to be happy about your new name you have to be, or they will know, and punish you without end until you really are happy. Edit: like what they said, with fewer words and better.

It seems silly to kwibble about such points, but Egwene will be broken if not rescued. That is the point, you cannot resist. They can hurt you worse than Whitecloak Questioners let you sleep and start all over again and again. And as the a'dam is in your head, you cannot even have rebellious thoughts. Egwene has had to convince herself that she would never hurt Renna, could never. She must submit, and convince herself that she has submitted and will never have any thought of not submitting. That is why it is so horrible. In most situations like this you have to convince your captors you are broken (like for Loial, for example), with the a'dam you have to convince yourself you are broken. There is no way out, the way of resisting, strength of will just makes it take longer and hurt more. The show might try to make it look like Egwene is resisting or overcoming it, but that would be selling the horror of the situation short. Egwene is completely dependent on outside help to escape, and she needs it quickly before she is completely broken. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that she can do to resist or escape herself.

Thank you, Lily 🙂 And don't worry, I don't feel intimidated at all. I'll head straight over to the White Tower! No hiding under my bed at all. Not even for a little bit until I can breathe properly again.

Kind of an odd off-topic conversation, but yes it does. Sado-masochism is inherently sexual, even if acts are not per se sexual in nature, as the goal of domination/submission is sexual enjoyment. SM is also inherently consensual, otherwise there is no masochism. The books are quite clear (in Tuon's mind at least) that sexual contact with a damane is disgusting, like bestiality as someone already pointed out. Though again, I think there are hints of damane being put in double kennels so a new damane can be comforted that hints at the books' fixation on sapphic relationships. So it is not, BDSM as it is not sexual and it is not consensual. If Renna was a sadist, then ok, she could be getting off on it, but I think anyone that is harbouring those kind of thoughts can just keep them to themselves. Sick little puppies.

Unrelated complaining warning. Was triggered by the image of the Whitecloaks. No armour in the history of the world was designed to catch blows. Armour is meant to soften/deflect blows. That huge thing on the shoulder sort of looks like a cavalry pauldron, but mutated to the point where a downward blow to the shoulder would be caught and and the whole force would be transferred into the wearer's shoulder, certainly spraining if breaking bones in the whole area and rendering the user useless. And that is not even mentioning no helmet! A rock tied to a stick would effectively take these men out of action. At least there is no huge belt across the chest, one does not use belts to attach shoulder armour, one uses shoelaces or very thin straps to attach to the hauberk underneath. Plate without padding, is a bit pointless. Sorry, a little knowledge is dangerous, and too much knowledge makes one a poor dinner party guest.

Could be. But in the end, **Final battle spoiler** Though certainly could see the character continuing through the later story lines as a bit part, perhaps with that name.

You guys are so naive. We know now Moiraine is stilled, no, we know she thinks she is stilled, no, we know she is telling Siuan that she thinks she is stilled, or indeed, we know that she was going to, we never saw the final letter. Though maybe that is going a bit far. Did you guys never play the Daes Dae'mar at home? Pfft. Would not last a minute in the Scottish Royal Court, I tells ya. Plus, another thing it looks like everyone is missing, everyone can see weaves. Visually, we can all see them, so it would be too much effort and too much - what, breaking of the fourth wall?, hmm, maybe not - to try and explain to audience that what you are seeing is only there for some people and not for others. Rand only channeled where it was hidden, not openly, whereas in the book only another male channeler would be able to see it. Here, everyone can see the weaves. I could be wrong as they never actually come out and say it, but rewatch and I am pretty sure you will agree. Egwene was awsome, I like how they took one little aside, about how she could not wash for two days because she thought about hitting Renna with the wash pitcher, and then turned it into the whole training scene. It is so heart-breaking because you so want her to smash her with it once she can touch it, but of course that is the point, no bravery, no resistance, nothing can overcome it. I wonder if they will use the line later about how she wants to make one the Sul'dam feel as if she is in a cauldron of boiling water, and Nynaeve thinks that she is exaggerating, then realizes she is totally serious and why she wants to make her feel that. That was a line that really hit home in the book, while being completely understated. Though am I the only that thinks Renna is totally hot? I think I am sucker for the "I put my eye-liner on while drunk" look. Did people not recognize Maighen's soft Scottish dulcet accent? I could barely hear what she was saying but I could recognize her voice, though yes, I am Scottish, perhaps an unfair advantage. Though possibly a reason to choose an actress with a distinctive accent for this role. And about the Sul'dam dying, Renna at least repeats the book lore, that the damane will feel what the Sul'dam feels even unto death. Though was the books not ten-fold? Double seems wishy-washy. Am I asking too many questions? I feel like a hyperactive thirteen year old. Are we there yet? Are we?

Yes, though we were discussing the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends. - Edit, or actually maybe we weren't, lol. I was thinking of the breaking, but I notice the OP seems more directed at "current events", my bad. Though that bugs me, if the Oath Rod and the Warder bond can be used on non-channelers, why are both broken for channelers on severing? Surely that implies that the ability to channel is inherent in the oath/bond? But yeah, wondering about such things is a bit fruitless.

Ouch. In the Netherlands we still have a very young Amazon site, for years it was only for Kindle content. Prime is €3 a month and apparently no plans for ads at the moment either.

Maybe one day I will understand why so many people are willing to assign any shortcomings in the show to malice, as opposed to a difference of opinion or things not working as well as hoped. But seeing as this willingness seems to be tied to some sort of masculinity-worshiping, I guess I probably won't.

Siuan is the same age as Moiraine (roughly, as they were novices together) and Rand when first meeting Moiraine thinks she looks as young as Nynaeve (who looked younger than her age (slightly) as she had started slowing) to being in her forties. Hence the agelessness. So for Siuan to look noticeably younger, I don't see how that could mean anything but a teenager. She should already have looked like she was in her early twenties. And young enough that people did not recognize her? Mid-teens? Younger? I guess the book leaves it to your imagination, and your own sense of propriety. Though what would it matter if someone looked twelve if they were actually much older? Send your thoughts on a postcard or sealed-down envelope to Freepost Inappropriate, Milton Keynes MK1 1DS.

Should I have used more words? What I mean is, take a scene like on top of Dragonmount. You could faithfully recreate that as well possible. But would it be good TV? Would the whole section not be better reworked to give a better visual spectacle? The source material is not be all and end all. So your assertion that you could make it more faithful, without adding anything, ignores how TV is made. Yes, if your only goal is to be faithful, but that is not how TV adaptations are made. And of course it is not to say that the two ideas are mutually exclusive. But they have to be taken together, definitely, and push come to shove, the practicalities will probably be more important. Your whole argument is based on false premises, in my opinion.

Not wanting to be disrespectful to the zombie-queen-horse, Bela, I think this deceased equine has had enough punishment. Seriously, some people thought it was a bit of jump, some people think who cares. Can we stop now?

I think you are also downplaying the importance of the visual impact of any scene. This is completely different that the written media. While you are obviously prioritizing faithfulness to the book above all else, I'd say if you were making a TV show you would have to give far more weight to how something looks. I mean it is a dumb example, but take Harry Potter and the way wizards dress. No problem with anything, runtime, etc, having their awful dress sense faithfully shown. But how does it look? What atmosphere does it create? The impact in the book is totally different, even though it is still characters dressed stupidly. And if every thing about a book is looked at this way, you have to look at how you can create visually emotive scenes. And possibly the best way to do this is to add things to be able to guide the story to these set pieces. I did not like the Stepin addition, particularly what it did to Lan, it made him too emotional, and too emotionally attached to things other than Moiraine, but Stepin's funeral was a visual feast, and while I thought it was a bit weird, I was there with Daniel Henney, he sold me on his grief, and it was an experience. A bit scary actually. And yes, in a worse case scenario, the makers pursue these visual set-ups over the story. and over the tone of the books (elves using shields as skateboards perhaps). But to not recognize that this is how you make TV and films is just being naive, in my most humble opinion. Why don't they follow the books more, is because that is not what they are trying to do, they are trying to make a TV show, and who would fund a TV show that set out to be faithful even if it made bad TV? Season 1 had to be very different from the books as they had to be upfront about it being about the Dragon, and I think they have brought it pretty well back to the core plot lines.

Early days though, as this is spear sister Aviendha (so makes sense that she is like the other Far Dareis Mai) who hardly appears in the books. We will still have to see "I don't want to be a Wise One" Avi, "Really grumpy because I don't want be a Wise One" Avi, "Studious little suck-up" Avi, "Existential angst" Avi and "I actually am a Wise One" Avi. Just to name a few. Unless the show, for the visuals, keeps her in the cadinsor, which would be more entertaining, but would be wrong, probably.

Not quite no book, we are often treated to the description of their bucket and prisoners generally get a bit of exercise or such. Or we get a nice graphic (to some degree) description of the smell, like Rand's box. Thankfully I have never come across a description of the bucket being used, just not needed, imho.

Well you guys are having such fun going over this, I'm surprised the show's writers could resist. They could have made a whole series just about the kidnapping. It would have been awesome. Think of the suspense! The excitement! The unconscious young women!

Well, again I would say that you are ignoring the visual effect, planned out on a story board. Lan is bent over Moiraine, tending her as she lies there wan and pale. Then a knife comes into view at his throat. Then reverse view, it's Nynaeve, shocker! Queue bad-ass one liner, and run credits. But whether or not you think this is good TV, too many people are instead looking for reasons why this or that has happened. And if it can in some form be chalked up as empowering the female characters or downplaying the male ones, then it is added to a list. But all the other points which don't make this list are just ignored. There are other reasons for degendering the One Power. There are other reasons for degendering souls. It does not have to be about making women better than men, that is an agenda that others have brought to the table without me seeing any sign of it in the show. I've seen many arguments against "aggressive" or "third-wave" or "modern" feminism, that all seem to come down to that equality means 50/50, and if women have more than 50% then that is sexism, discrimination, misandry. But it is like what that Supreme Judge (whose name escapes me at the moment) said, for equality if it is OK that all the Supreme Judges are male, it has to be OK that they are all female, not just rationed to 50%. And if you look at these arguments against these types of feminism, you will see that they look amazing similiar to the arguments in the past that made against feminism, that it is an attack on family and traditional values, that it is an attack on masculinity, on femininity, etc. It is the same argument, the same defense of the status quo, except with a meaningless adjective added before feminism and people seem to genuinely think it is a new argument. Many say that feminism is hard to define. To me it is not. I have two kids, one son, one daughter. If you are a feminist, when I say one wants to be a nurse, or a doctor, or a stay at home parent, or has a new boyfriend, or is moving in with an older woman, or whatever, you don't need to ask which one to know what you feel about it. To me it is that simple. We should be looking at the show in terms of is it good TV and how is it treating the source. Not scouring it for instances where female characters are "buffed" and males "nerfed", especially not when ignoring the counter examples. I don't doubt that Jordan meant well, and I think he has a very strong female voice in his book, which he did not need to have. But there are huge problems with his view of the genders, with his equal societies that actually just have different gender roles and how in so many of them (Seanchan excepted) those gender roles are absolutely unbreakable, Domani merchants, sister-wives, wavemistresses, cargomasters, etc, etc,. And that is not even going into the role that corporal punishment plays in the story, both as a background noise and as a plot mechanic. Or they way that the main female characters are universally beautiful, large breasted, flat stomached and slim hipped. Or that Aemon was as brave as a man could be and his wife was as beautiful as could be, so were the perfect couple. Or how the women fight like cats over men. Or slut shame each other's clothing. Or the male gaze apparent in the narration, with women stripping off left, right and center, folding there arms under their breasts, having rings nestling between their breasts... Calling yourself a Jordan feminist is nearly on par with saying, I like women, but they need a damn good spanking. That was a joke. But you simply cannot hide behind that the book is feminist enough that you cannot possible critique it. It just is not so.

I would imagine not, though if you remember he had a lot on his plate at that moment. But no, for all Nynaeve's tracking skills, I would not have said she should have been able to sneak up on Lan. Let me ask you a question in return. Did this set up a visually compelling dramatic surprise, a tense cliffhanger, and the opportunity for humour and character building where Nynaeve does try to stab him (which he foils easily). And a small follow up question, if yes, is there any need to look further for motivation, and if no (it was bad writing) is there any need to look further if we accept that is what they were trying to do?