I’m leaning even more towards no doorway after Episode 8.  
 

The issue, then, would be what to do about the characters who go through them later (vague for spoilers).  Being that they are big enough characters on screen not to do them like that, they need a different resolution.

The episode was horrible trash.  I guess a high on that it is better trash than the last finale.

I’ll give credit where credit is due, though - Hopper’s death was rough and watching his spirit leave and try to fly was moving.

But Perrin’s arc is that he is so scared of violence that he sympathizes with the tinkers, is willing to watch his companions be stabbed (presumably) fatally in Fal Dara while standing like a deer in the headlights,  then impaled through the face while standing like a deer in the headlights, then rush into the middle of a battle and start sword fighting competently against trained soldiers?

Stop the apology tour for every last nonsensical writing decision.  We have a character who in the books is trained to fight with the sword and then is forced into duel where he is outmatched but shows some competence.  That is what fans wanted.  In the books we have another character who probably doesn’t touch a sword in 14 books and here they show him fighting with one.
 

I honestly can’t think of a show where the in-show lore is so inconsistent and so often misused as a plot device.  Episode 8 just confirmed so much of what is wrong with this show.

Season 1 was a 3/10, this season is a 5/10.  Better trash is still trash.  The effects, sets, acting, etc. were generally better this season.  The writing is still mediocre to borderline incompetent.

Notes while watching:

- Pointless cold open.  All it seemed to do is humanize a forsaken and make him a more sympathetic character…

-The best part of the show is still the title sequence.  Glad to see it back in this episode.

-Apparently gateways are out.  Lanfear just teleports now.

-Damane weaving has all been motion-based, with the Suldam  mirroring them.  So why is their punishment to take a Damane’s hands?  
 

-Fain hands over the dagger?  No, just no.  I also don’t like him in the lackey roll.  I prefer the Fain who nails Fades to a wall through their eyes…

-Loial is just wandering the city with the Horn of Valere?  Did I miss the part where three slaves steal it from Seanchan nobility?

-Hahaha, RIP Turak.  Rand didn’t need sword training; he’s One Power proficient…

-…And RIP Ingtar.  Criminally underused, underdeveloped, and pointless to this show.

-Bayle suddenly has an accent.  He didn’t speak like this at the beginning of the season, did he?

-Hey, the dagger works again!  It magically stabilize itself to a staff with a single piece of fabric, it can melt metal, and it kills instantly.  Thank goodness that Ogier and Fal Darans are immune…

-He Suldam/Damane stuff is so poorly written and so inconsistent.  What garbage.  On top of that, taking the bracelet off releases the collar?!?!  She freaking left the bracelet in Egwene’s cell!

-The dagger can do everything!

-Perrin is a competent sword fighter!  At least he finally got an axe.

-Hopper’s death sucked to watch and watching him “fly” away was moving.  Well done, there.

-Mat and the heroes was cool.  It was fun to see Uno there.  
 

-Why could Nyn get through her block to study the A’dam but not to heal Elayne?

-Oh look, a super woman to the rescue again.  I’m so surprised…

-It was nice of Ishamael to watch Rand slowly approaching to stab him in the heart.  Very considerate of him.

This show is so disrespectful to the source material and the writing is so mediocre…

So last season, we took Tarwin’s Gap away from Rand and gave it to the girls.  This season ended with Rand being saved by Egwene, who out-channeled a forsaken, while Moiraine channeled enough to destroy a fleet of ships from miles away.  And people still think we’re close-minded bigots when we point out the continual elevation of women over men.

I think we can officially say that at this point Perrin is a better sword fighter than Rand…

2 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Mmm I’m having trouble finding the direct interview, I think it’s on X and I don’t have that. But this short quotes his words exactly. 
 

 

This might be off-topic in this thread, but it raises an interesting question: if the writing is in the wall and Rafe knows he’s done after season 3, does he change the story to wrap things up? 

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I just browsed the episode by episode critic's reviews on Rotten Tomatoes. In terms of critical reception, you can tell that this season is doing things well. As the season has gone on the critics have gone from lukewarm to very positive in a nearly straight line.

 

Interestingly Episode 7, which is one of the less popular here, gets the highest marks from the critics.

That is interesting.  I would think that E6 would have had the best reviews of the season.

Speaking of rating, I was just browsing around on Prime and I noticed that The Shannara Chronicles has a higher star rating than Wheel of Time.  Ouch.

Both are higher rated in Amazon than Rings of Power.  The Expanse, another book adaptation, is rated higher than all of them.

This nonsense is what happens when I don’t have enough time to start a show before my kids get home but I’ve already sat down and don’t feel like getting up.

41 minutes ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

The tEotW prologue and the final confrontation with the DO was the first thing he wrote. He had the bread, now he just needed to fill in the sandwich.

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Other than Lan, can you name a character that is significantly different from a development standpoint than they were in the books?

Sure.  Mat, Perrin, Rand, Moiraine, Thom, Min, off the top of my head.

4 minutes ago, Samt said:

Rafe's answers in general are mostly Aes Sedai answers.  There is actually very little concrete information and just a lot of speculation fuel.  I understand why he did that, but also I wouldn't attach much value to the answers when trying to predict how the series will go.  The finns will definitely be abbreviated and possibly eliminated entirely in my judgement.  

I do understand a show runner’s desire to stay vague, but I think I’d respect Rafe’s caginess more if he were willing to say something like, “ live said before that some changes will be made to adapt this massive book.  We’ve made the decision to cut the Finn but Mat will follow a similar arc to the books in a way that fits our show.”

I’m not saying that’s the case with the Finn but he could be up front sometimes.

24 minutes ago, Robbin Poh said:

Recently joined the forum, came to vent at people venting at the show.
Please reread the books to remind yourselves the characters are exactly how they should be at this point in the plot. Also, RJ had to write books 1,2,3 with self-contained climax endings because he wasn't sure if he could find publishers for the next book, hence Rand's unrealistic victory each time even though he was still so untrained and inexperienced. It was only later on when WOT was a hit that RJ felt more free to revise the plot structure of books 4-11 as a continuous flow.

I’m sorry, what?  I can’t take posts like this seriously.  If you like the show, great, but let’s not pretend that the characters are all the same.  I mean, have you seen Lan?

The characters may end up at the same geographical location as they are in the books but they are not all the same characters.

Rafe’s answer is confusing me.

But I personally doubt we see the Finn.  And if we do, I’m expecting less Foxes and more creepy humans.

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Exactly. You could have done essentially the same scene with Moiraine and Siuan walking into the hall talking. But inside the chamber you have the Amyrlin and Gitara. Gitara says her prophecy and you give the Amyrlin a few extra lines swearing Moiraine and Siuan to secrecy and maybe a two-sentence bit of exposition on the fact that the Dragon's birth means the Last Battle is coming.

 

It just would have been a better scene, IMO. Not that what was in the show was bad, but it was (as my kids say) "mid". Like a C+ scene instead of an A.

It also would have given the writers an opportunity to give Gandalf’s powerful “so do all who see such times” speech from the Amyrlin to Siuan and Moiraine and show that it wasn’t just a private decision but a solemn duty.

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Book lore no.
Show lore yes... sorta?

Show lore they've made changes like. You can't sense someone channeling unless you're channeling.

Logain has a talent that he can see men channeling even when he's not channeling, and possibly a talent to see weaves when he's not channeling. (That's independent of him being stilled?)  This replaced his talent to sense plot armor.

Miri (Young Seanchan Damane) has a talent that allows her to sense women who can channel even when they aren't channeling.

I remember years ago I was watching some commentary for Battlestar Galactica and one of the things Ronald Moore said right off that bat was that before writing, before filming, they basically created the “BSG Bible” as a reference and guide for all future writing. Ignoring the fact that this show has a long-established and very thorough Bible available in the form of the actual books it purports to be adapting, it has been very clear through 15 episodes that:

a) The writers aren’t consistent with their world building.

b) Don’t explain their world building adequately enough.

c) Play fast and loose with their world building and are willing to change it to fit the plot.

Any combination of these three things explains a lot about this show and “explains” their Logain sub-plot.

3 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

I have a feeling Fain won't be the one to stab Rand, I am also finding it interesting that people seem so accepting that Rands first wound will come from Fains blade and not Ishy's as it does in the book. Does this mean he won't be stabbed twice? 

but back to Fain, in the books his story kind of drifts off, it feels liek once he created him RJ wasn't really sure how to end his arc, and then we get BS awful ending. I think we might see Fain die far far sooner. The important thing here is Shadar Logath and the part it plays later, Fain as a character doesn't realy do much other then stab Rand (and kill off a few people Rand want's dead). 

On top of that, season 1 ended with Fain showing up almost out of nowhere and getting stabby with the dagger.  I’d imagine they don’t want to be redundant here.

3 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Oh she has flaws, and with all fiction those are made more extreme, but I have yet to meet any 15/16 year old who is emotionally mature, and that is how old she is when she marries Perrin in the books (something that readers seem to choose to skip over, she is 14 when she meets him). So yes she acts like a love sick teenager, because she is one. 

It isn’t much different emotionally but she meets Perrin when she’s 18.  She was born in 981 and met Perrin in 999.

On 10/2/2023 at 10:04 PM, Elder_Haman said:

(1) it set up the confrontation with Siuan, leading Siuan to believe that Moiraine was lying to her (and therefore possibly a darkfriend?) thus giving her the impetus to use the oath to compel Moiraine's obedience. Which leaves us with the interesting question (at least to some) of whether they can ever repair the relationship.

 

(2) it set up the reason why Siuan would question her decision and reverse course on the Dragon question. Moiraine's shield prevented her from training Rand. (And yes, I know she can't train him in how to use the power, but her ability to use the power would allow her to provoke a response using the power which is better than nothing in terms of training.) 

 

(3) it gave a clever mechanism by which to explain: (a) the difference between being shielded and being stilled; (b) the ability to see male weaves vs. female weaves [thus undermining the tired S1 talking point about degendering the OP]; (c) the concept of 'tying off' a weave which will come in handy later.

Whether you or anyone else likes the changes or not, I think we can all agree that the Moiraine stilled/shielded sub-plot and the and all the connected storyline with her relationship and parting with Lan was probably one of the biggest departures we've seen from the books.  I would think, then, that the change should have a greater purpose than just this.  To respond directly to your points:

-The Dragon has been reborn.  I think there are many reasons Moiraine and Siuan (who is now in a vastly different position than she was 20 years ago) could disagree on what to do with Rand.  This doesn't require Moiraine's stilling/shielding.  

-Considering that most of the season was spend with a shielded Moiraine trying to find Rand and then trying to guide him, I don't see how that would have been any different had she had use of the Power.

-We don't need a clever mechanism to explain shielding and stilling because we already had Logain shielded and then gentled.  We also had the perfect and most organic conversation for the ability to see weaves available and the writers dropped the ball.  When Rand asked Moiraine to teach him, she could have dropped a single sentence there that would have clearly explained it all without an entire episode-long sub-plot.  I complain about the writing on this show and that single conversation is probably the biggest example of the writers dropping the ball.  Much could have been explained via brief and easy to understand exposition there.  I understand the show-don't-tell philosophy but there are also times where a single sentence can clarify much.  I know we've now been told that there are male and female weaves, but to my dying day I will be 100% convinced that the conversation with Moiraine was as bad as it was because they really didn't want to bring up a gendered power and only did so as late as they did for a plot point.

Other people have said other things like it allowed for character growth or gave her something to do but I would argue that had she kept her powers and not destroyed her relationship for Rand we still could have had compelling plot with her.  She discovered the person of her life's work and immediately lost him; there was plenty for her to do and much purpose behind what she needed to do, even with the power.

It al circles back to the writers thinking they are better writers than RJ, and they are not.  The whole Moiraine story was completely made up and spread through 8 episodes for little reason that I can see other than boosting the actress's screen time and acting range.

We are all readers here; we are all creative here.  I fail to believe that if we couldn't come up with genuine and organic ways to introduce all the themes mentioned in response to me in a way that wasn't so drastically divergent from the source material.

----------------------------

I do have a question that came up when I considered @Elder_Haman's response to me.  Because it involves the Three Oaths I'd probably have to go back and look at the wording of Moiraine's oath.  Apologies if this has been asked, sometimes I miss things.

Last season Siuan made Moiraine swear on the oath rod to obey her, correct?  I don't remember the wording of that oath.

But at the end of the latest episode, Siuan commands Moiraine not to go.  Moiraine defies her.  Was this not a breaking of an Oath sworn on the rod?  Shouldn't Moiraine have become apoplectic or something?

I know it could have been something subtle with the wording so if anyone can correct me on this that would be helpful for my understanding.

16 hours ago, Ralph said:

New topic - just saw Unraveling the Pattern's theory that Siuan was Compelled to act as she did in this Ep. 

 

What do y'all thinks? 

 

not certain how to connect the dots, but we have not had any follow up from Liandrin asking Leane if she even knows where the Amyrlin is. 

 

is this all part of the "crippled" Amyrlin? and bringing about the coup, of course

I agree with what others have said about this, but I'll also add that over-using compulsion as a plot device  would be problematic where at any point anyone's intentions and actions could be just about anything and it could later be explained away deus ex machina-style.

4 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Cause she’s not ready to let Moiraine (or anyone else) know about traveling. 

I accept that. 

Now that we’ve wrapped up the Moiraine shielding question, hat did that whole storyline accomplish that couldn’t have been done with her retaining her powers?

Why did Lanfear use the ways at the end of the episode?  We know she can travel and we know she is familiar with Tear…

1 hour ago, nsmallw said:

How does everyone feel about the resolution to the Moiraine/Lan bond, stilled or shielded plot line ?

 

I enjoy how they did it but wish it hadn't lasted so long and they took a bit more time showing Lan had a plan all along to help Moiraine. 

If by resolution you mean Moiraine being able to channel and Lan as her warder, it’s a great resolution.

Except it is a resolution to a problem that shouldn’t have existed and was sloppily handled.  I don’t like how Lan turned into some great scholar to solve the problem and I don’t like the way Rand was suddenly able to do something with precision that he had no understanding of.

1 hour ago, EmreY said:

 

If you want to be a purist about it, the person blowing it must think not of glory but salvation.  And they follow the Dragon, usually.  I think it would be very funny if Turok blew the Horn. 🙂  

 

In the books, at least.  In the TV series, we'll WAFO.

 

 

Also, weren't they saving for the Empress?