imagine if Perrin left Faile and took up a relationship with an obviously more politically savy Berelain....imagine if he put duty above what is basically, a teenage crush....

imagine if he developed as a man and fell for the more experienced and travelled woman, and let the younger Faile be free and find herself....

i have major issues with the Perrin/Faile relationship.....i know Jordan wasnt great at romance...but these two are headed for serious relationship problems, i mean, she flat out refuses to acknowledge his culture when it comes to 'courting'...shes an eejit....

while we're on the subject....Faile could be cut just as easily (i know she has been cast)....a ( very young) wife that demands to be dominated and only respects her man when hes being assertive?....yeah, that wont be problematic in 2024...

On 11/18/2023 at 2:58 AM, Samt said:

Yes. But making a good show is also important.  WoT is struggling because it isn't a well made show.  I know there are lots of reasons for that and maybe it's a difficult IP to adapt.  But that is the heart of the problem.  

i actually like the show....i love the books...i like the show....

its a bit hard if your trying to expand the audience to make a like for like WOT and expect great numbers in 2023...

that said...they could have been a lot truer to the books and just tweaked it a bit around the more 'dated' parts and still ended up with a blockbuster

embarrassed to say this as it pretty much dumbs down my wheel of time experience....

but every so often, i cant help but see Caddy as the granny in the tweety bird cartoon.....pops in at the most inoputune times...like at Malden.. sorry if ive ruined anything for anybody going forward....

i almost envy you.

imagine getting the read this epic for the first time 'again'....

its one of those questions isnt it....like hearing the beatles for the first time, and knowing the hype....

i re read the series 'every couple of years'...

takes me around a year to get through the 14 books.

i do have to say...once i start the 're read', im not one to have other books going. once i start, its WOT or nothing.

i have never done it, but i read someone on here went through the whole books just reading one characters arc (say, Rand) which i thought would be good.

when i finished my last complete re read,  i went back to when Mat 'captured' Tuon....as i love the whole courting of them two....and read (only)Mat through to the end of book 13....its actually not that easy to do

havent got a lot to offer here, but yeah, shes one of my favorite characters as the books slowed down shes front and centre

i love the books, i flit in and out of alot of stories....currently enjoying the travelling show/Tuon/Mat arc ....

not sure if anyone here realises but she has ample bossom...not that mat would look

and..........its only just warming up.....

22 hours ago, melegant said:

In the show, how did anyone see what was happening on top of that tower? Rand just pops his head up and everyone is like 'Hail the Dragon'?

to be fair, you could also frame this a brilliant framing from the showrunners....even though i can see you are not in the mood to concede such ground.

Rands grip on authority was ever so fickle.

in book form you can flesh it out....in show form, leaving such doubts out there as ' well not many people actually saw it happen' could be seen as good production. 

i loved so much about this season.

alot to talk about.

not mentioned alot but i think Rands treatment of Turak was better than the books, he even suprised himself.

he didnt really earn the right to be equal in the sword fight in the books (i know, he was being bettered), also the books are littered with moments where he just blows people away with his power.... so too me it really worked well.

a shame Renna Died, would have loved to see her journey and THAT final scene with the band.... i thought the character had a future in the series.

going to keep this as brief as possible.

that. was. more. like .it

i was OK with season one but it was to the weak end of the scale....these first three episodes are really great....Nyn in the arches is better than the book.

the story telling is great....now im removed from thinking it will mimick the books, so long as it motors along 'next to' the storyline and the 'main' characters end up completing the 'main' plot points, ill be happy, and if it keeps tracking the way it is, ill probably be actually even happier to live the epic series again without knowing everything that will happen next.

loved so many things

the arches

Cairhien

Mat and Min

Liandrin and her son

Liandrin being a conflicted character

Ishmael

the conversation with the child and the trolloc

Selene is awesome

Egwene and Elanye...who i actually skim through alot on re reads...is some great interaction, really liking it

the Seanchen war machine

Elyas leading the hunt is really streamlining that arc perfectly...it would be wasteful having two master trackers...sorry Hurin

the introduction of the game of houses

the list is endless....

i hope i havent just raised my hopes too high....but this is rwally where i was hoping this show would be.

does it get better?

romantically...no.

Jordans world is amazing and epic....his stories are brilliant....but his romantic relationships...he rarely gets right.

Min and Rand i think is on point.....couple of others...Egwene for one never takes a backseat for romance...

9 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

The leashes will get tangled, the actors will not move in unison and will be pushed or pulled off balance. 

isnt that the point though?....to keep to the script.....

yeah happy with that...when i origianlly read the series all those years ago i had Angelina Jolie vibes, so i suppose i had this vision of an attractive but mature female, definately not a young beautiful 20 something...but a mature, drop dead gorgeous character...

box ticked.

just watched a rewatch of the series over the last few nights....

anyone think maybe Perrin is attracted to Rand;

1. challenges Rand to treat Eggy better which at first glance is some kind of hint that he likes Eggy....but...what if he were upset and Rands aloofness, based on his own feelings

2. in that scene he clearly states that Laila was 'the only women i ever loved'

3. later in same episode he confirms with Eggy that he loves Rand.... its the same episode which got me thinking, it could be bad writing, but he commits his love for Rand and denies his love for Eggy in two very close scenes. so it could be he is refering to something greater than a platonic love interest

my original thought would be it would ruin the story a bit, but on reflection, if its done right, and his love for Faile is chanelled into his love for Rand, and it means one less character with one less side story (the recapture of Faile and the whole horn stuff at thge last book, it really could work if done with a sensitive nod to the original character 

as in Perrin doesnt really need to change his character ARC significantly, we know he is driven by love and loyalty to one specific person....

personally i have no idea how i miss so much to be honest...sometimes on a first read you get such a solid picture in your mind to what happened.

these forums are an excellent reference, but yep...on my 5th or 6th read through and still the odd stuff jumps out off the page at me .....

Dumai wells played out so much differently than i interpretted on my first read through i often wonder if i was reading an alternative version first time through🫢

to be fair, i didnt criticise the show, i said i wanted it to 'stick to the books', which is a personal opinion.

the post after mine was some long winded justification of why the show doesnt have to stay true to the books and wanting it to do so isnt based on 'fact' or some such.

we could argue all day about whether the show should be remain loyal to the books or not, but you cant argue that i would like it to do so...that...my friend, is a 'fact'

and if the poster would care to interperet my posts better they would see that whilst i am not a lover of going away from book lore, im still quite accepting of it

the girls know hes alive....bond or no bond....they know, and he knows ...

regarding Tam, theres no way Rand just wanders into the sunset and travels the world without putting Tam at ease.......theres 14 books of Rands growth i provide as evidence....

i understand its not written in lore, but the lore had to end somewhere.

Rand wont leave Tam in misery, if you think he will, just re read the books

min in my mind was Rose Byrne

having said that.....im happy to go with the show on this....

things i loved

eamons field

Fain

Rands casting, it took a while to grow on me, but hes more Rand to me than the Rand i had in my head all these years, really looking forward to see him slowly change from innocent to...well...the dragon...

world building

tar valon, despite its tackyness, im onboard

aes sedai

alana...i have amiddle aged crush....she hot.

things i didnt

the cleanliness of the sets just seemed not quite right

one of my favorite periods in all of the books is mat and rand travelling and playing for supper whilst mat slowly turns, that was a massive loss to the show 

Thom...i reckon the casting is perfect....like rand, better than the picture i had in my mind.....just follow the book lore....

no baerlon

loial....he would have been hard to get right to be fair, but seriously, WTF is that?

loved it....aviendha is perfect....im really hoping they can stick to the books and do it justice.

also, i think all three have a unique and significant bond...elayne being the weakest.

i flit between Min and Aviendha for the most enjoyable read....the long run up he has with Aviendha is awesome, its cut short though and i wish they had a bit more time with each other once they had admitted it was pointless fighting it...niot so much to get it on more....but one or two adventures together in battle....lmagine if you would, Aveindha and Rand hunting Ashamen in far madding together with Lans assistance....thatd be cool

yep. to me Elayne and Aveindha really should have been his Exes.....ones he still loved but got out of harms way and they remained friends and his baby mommas

the whole thing where the girls all agree to share, whilst i understand is a lifestyle choice for some, is a bit tacky, would have made his arc and pain more realistic if he had to lose the ones he loved....not just kept them all....

the scene where he and elayne are getting jiggy with it and the other girls are feeling it so have to get drunk is definately teenage fantasy crap.....

yep.

i think we have arrived at the same destination.

character flaws are good and need to be written in, RJ was a bit heavy handed on a few occassions.

when he does that....like when Nyneave pulls on her braid because Lan mentions he loves her and wants to protect her....i just think about the world he built and am able to continue enjoying the read.

17 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

It's a fascinating point how quickly attitudes change and how well or poorly works age.  We have tv shows like "It was acceptable in the 70s" where we are meant to react with shock at how people thought a generation ago.  Shows like Friends or comedy creations like Ali G from the 90s hit raw nerves or cross lines for some today.

 

Fantasy is meant to be immune from that in that it isn't set in and isn't meant to reflect the condition and attitudes of the real world.  We have to be able to relate, to sympathise and to empathise with our characters adn their predicament but is best if we enjoy the ride rather than look to identify, judge or see our values reflected.

 

The battle of the sexes is annoying because it's an exaggeration and magnifies the stereotypes the author adapts for the story and because it's ever present.  Still, the characters are mostly young, impulsive, strong-willed and inexperienced in dealing with the opposite sex and all growing into their adult selves as well as to fill important leadership roles so some level of confusion, bickering and conflict is warranted.  It's just too much 🙂

perfectly said, better than i could say....its just to overplayed and basic.

15 hours ago, DojoToad said:

The world we live in is full of people with character flaws - why would books be different?

written character....as in the context of the discussion , we were talking in particular how M, N and E miscommunicating is a bit basic.

and yes, there are people like that, but to me its out of character for those three, they have a world to save, Mat can call on the memories of multiple generals, (i.e, multiple experience of negotiations and communication), Nyneave is a wisdom and Elayne has been guided into ruling a country from a young age (diplomacy was probably introduced semester 1) so the character flaw of them not being able to discuss Rand wanting Elanye to come to Caemlyn to rule is really frustrating.

the more you analise it the worse it gets....she litterally has to just walk into the palace and assume rule, she could discuss the issues with the  imaging and process with Mat without a second thought and a solution would present itself.