Um ok, so much to talk about. 

Can we start with the White Cloaks, and Emon Valda burning an AS at the stake and collecting their rings. 

I LOVE the way he looks. 

And the AIEL! WIth the blood on the spears. 

Those trollocks are perfect. 

And it literally gave me chills to see her take the three oaths. 

12 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Oh dear.

Now it's 1 of 5.

So Nynaeve is also a DR candidate.

Woke wins.

6 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

I've no idea if there's a source for this, but if she's including Nynaeve in broad statements I feel like Moiraine is just speaking broadly and imprecisely to get them to do what she wants. 

Gotta Agree. I think it will end up being Aes Sedai word play. 

I have been a negative nancy about this, but the trailer makes me feel better about it. 

I am PUMPED!

https://www.looper.com/643908/the-first-full-wheel-of-time-trailer-will-blow-you-away/

It's Here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ANd it was AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please be good, PlePlease be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, ase be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, Please be good, 

So it makes sense to me that it might go like this: 

• The Dragon could be male or female. 
• The world is holding its breath.... waiting to see if the next dragon is a crazy dude or awesome woman. 
• Everyone is hoping that it will be Egwene because that means she will be a safe Dragon because she weilds saidar. 
• Everyone is devestated and terrified when it turns out to be Rand. 

Edit: Which... to be fair.... creates a plot line that ends in a similar place. No one wants the Dragon to be Reborn. Everyone is terrified of male channelers, and the world's cultures are filled with examples of this. 

Maybe it will work out. 

22 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

It doesn't really change the magic system. It would make some changes to history and expectations. The DR is (according to the marketing materials) prophesied to save or destroy the world, and if souls are de-gendered such that LTT can be reborn as either a man or a woman, cultures are waiting with baited breath to see if he'll be reborn as a woman with clean magic or a man destined to go insane. And when it's confirmed a man... well that will not be good. It's a coin toss. Or maybe a dice analogy is more appropriate.

This is probably it. 

But another thing it changes is the fact that the boys stood out because they were ta'veren on top of everything. Are they going to throw that out completely? That seems the easiest path I guess but dang....... 

AND WHY?!!!!! If it isn't an attempt to elevate a female character (which, dammit, Egwene is a bad ass and doesn't need Amazon producers to help her at all) then whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? How does it help the story?

59 minutes ago, Borderlander said:

And maybe worth keeping in mind that these little snippets are so poorly written, you have to wonder how much communication there was between Random Marketing Guy who whipped these up and the actual production team. Rafe may know all the subtle ins and out of the lore, the DR, saidar vs. saiden, etc., but whoever wrote these little bios may not. They are riddled with errors, bad writing, and bad grammar:

 

For example:

 

A mysterious and powerful Aes Sedai capable of channeling the One Power, her arrival brings with it concern, and threat of chaos.

 

shouldn't it be "and a/the threat of chaos"

 

Aes Sedai may never speak that which is not true, but the truth one tells you is not always the truth you may think.

 

This is so clunky it hurts my head. I doubt RJ ever worded it so poorly.

 

She’s promised to marry Rand, but others see her potential.

 

What does this even mean? (I know what it means; it's just very clumsy.)

 

The town Wisdom wishes to train her, and the arrival of an Aes Sedai who wants to take her from Two Rivers further complicates her once simple life.

 

So now it's Two Rivers, not the Two Rivers?

 

She’s quickly realizing she could be more important than anyone ever imagined.

 

Except for all those other people who saw her potential...?

 

When Moiraine arrives in Two Rivers, he pays little mind.

 

Okay, Two Rivers it is! Oh, wait a second...

 

Nynaeve is fierce and assertive, commanding respect as the youngest Wisdom the Two Rivers has ever seen.

 

?

 

I could go on! (and on and on) but the point is, maybe we should not take these dinky little write-ups like they are the gospel truth.

So much of this has felt like amateur hour. 

11 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Those "lore-breaking consequences" will probably affect absolutely nothing in the show. Nothing.

Respectfully, could not disagree more. 

The Dragon Reborn was terrifying... because Saidin was tainted. The entire reason the finding the Dragon was so important was so that he could be controlled.... not just so that the Aes Sedai could be in control  (though that was there) but because touching Saidin was SOOOO dangerous. The Dragon is male. Making it ambigious...... it is a change with a lot of consequences.

How? How? How can she be the dragon if she is a woman? That just doesn't make sense and FUNDAMENTALLY changes the magic system, lore, and history. This is SUCH an unnecessary change that change wayyyyy too much. 

No I get it. I absolutely love these books and adore these characters. To the point where when I found out I was pregnant with my two children I made sure to read the series in it’s entirety while pregnant. That seems super dumb and weird but… I don’t know it was a special time and I wanted to be reading my favorite book series. When a grande work like this means so much to you you want to see it done well.

I go between being terrified and a little hopeful. What’s made me hopeful lately? I was terrified that the Dune movie will be would be terrible. I read an article where the Director talked about being very aware of the “white savior stereotype” and I just thought that it was going to be ruined. For those of you who haven’t seen it… Let me just say that I thoroughly enjoyed the movie and I’m on pins and needles for part two. Maybe there is hope for this.

On 10/22/2021 at 7:29 PM, Tim said:

I think making Egwene ta’veren would be the more fundamental necessary follow-on adjustment to making her one of the people the DO is seeking (if it’s confined in series 1 that only the boys are ta’veren, that would suggest the target is one of them and not Egwene).

 

I don’t necessarily have a problem with that shift, although it would undermine somewhat a key contrast in the book - Rand, Mat and Perrin end up influencing people and changing events largely in spite of their efforts to the contrary, whereas Egwene has broadly the same world-changing impact as Perrin or Mat but through sheer determination. 
 

The contrast is perhaps clearest with Perrin, given he doesn’t exhibit as many of the obviously fate-distorting effects as Rand or Mat. In some ways Perrin becoming leader of the Two Rivers and Egwene becoming leader of the White Tower are similar arcs, but with Perrin it’s clearly due at least in part to effects beyond his control and that he would disavow if he could; with Egwene it’s largely planned, often meticulously. 
 

But if the show did want to go down this path, I think it could work, in the sense that these four effectively are the ultimate leaders of the Last Battle (in a way that say Elayne is not quite), and one of the themes the show could foreground is that these four people, who start from the same “place” both geographically and in terms of world-understanding, ultimately develop four very distinct styles of leadership, utilising their ta’veren effects in very different ways (this is still true if focusing just on R, M and P, but it’s sharper if you add E).

I agree with everything you said about Egwene and Perrin's story arcs. Of all the boys, Perrin's abilities are the most earned. However, it would matter a lot to me if they went down this path. Egwene's story is phenomenal.... she survives slavery, torture, extreme training.... the list goes on..... all to end up being one of the most powerful characters in the book. Every accomplishment was earned. COMPLETELY  earned. 

I would hate to see the show cheapen that.... and yes.... IMO it would cheapen her story.... enough that it would turn me off the show. That is just my perspective. 

23 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

Which part are you referring to?

The shadows look so bad. 

TBF I hate CGI, so I always complain about it. 

Emond's Field still looks amazing, 

The look of the Eyeless is fear. 

And Rand is EXACTLY as I pictured him. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B09F59CZ7R/ref=atv_dp_share_cu_r

Holy terrible CGI, Batman! 

14 hours ago, Tim said:

 

As has been discussed upthead, I'm inclined to see that as being a very sensible, strategic decision Rafe took early on so as to secure financial support. As the GQ article picks up, the general view of fantasy by non-fans is that it's a genre for shy and introverted teenage boys - escapist wish-fulfilment bildungsroman stories about a teenage boy who learns he's special somehow, a warrior or a wizard or a king. Whether this is a fair cliche is really beside the point if it's a belief widely held.

 

The first two books of WOT don't really distinguish themselves from the above cliche (one reason I loved them when I was 11 years old!), and in particular the first book reveals very little if any of the darker themes around Rand's development that start to emerge thereafter. At a high level, therefore, the question becomes "why adapt The Eye of the World and not the first few books of The Belgariad, or The Dragonbone Chair, or Magician? (or etc.)" 

It's difficult to describe the plot of the first book (remembering that if the show is to succeed it has to happen with the very first series) at a high level in a manner that seems particularly distinct from other possible vehicles for adaptation except by reference to the surrounding context of how social power and control is both gendered and (in some senses or contexts) female-aligned. It's by far the single most clear and easy-to-explain point of distinction. The GQ article refers to Rafe "emphasizing" this - not inserting something that wasn't already there.

 

Again, none of this is necessarily fair - fantasy actually has a large female fanbase, a lot of fantasy both predating and postdating the Wheel of Time features interesting and thoughtful gender politics, and even many of the more archetypal male bildungsroman stories still have strong and relatable female characters - but if you're asking a studio to stump up $10m per episode on a show that might run for a decade, these are the perceptions you need overcome or to manage. 

The framing also provides a neat answer to the GOT problem: GOT established a point of difference from "generic" fantasy by emphasising grittiness and sex, as well as featuring strong female characters. The sexualisation of GOT not only provided HBO-friendly visual titillation; it was also shorthand code for sceptical (non-fantasy-reading) viewers that, despite being a fantasy world, this was not a pre-pubescent story purpose-built for young men who have not even begun to think about gender relations (though I tend to think GOT was not entirely successful here: it's all very well and good to have strong female characters but when you're then repeatedly subjecting them to gross humiliation and sexual degradation entirely disproportionate to the level of social power you otherwise grant them, it's not exactly clear that your view of gender relations is mature or coherent). 

 

Compare this with LOTR, which had only three vaguely prominent female characters, none of whom feel particularly relatable, and in which the concept of "gender relations" doesn't even exist. 

 

(the need to establish a clear point of difference from LOTR becomes more acute in circumstances where Amazon is also funding a show premised on the LOTR world)

 

WOT can't really adopt the GOT approach without totally changing the whole feel of the story. But again, Rafe can point to something which is already there in the books, which is that every major plot point is shaped and coloured by gender relations at both a personal and whole-of-society level, because of the world-level direct and indirect ramifications of the taint on saidin, all the way down to villages being run by duelling gender-based authority groups. The question "how does the relationship between men and women impact on this character or this storyline?" isn't something Rafe has to insert; it's already incredibly prominent in the books.

If anything, I suspect the show has the opportunity to be a bit more subtle than RJ in this regard: think about in The Great Hunt, where Egwene and Nynaeve's decision to accompany Liandrin to Falme is premised on the assumption that Rand, as a wool-headed man, is totally unable to look after himself (and then, by contrast, when Egwene is captured by the Seanchan, Elayne wishes Rand or some other man with a sword was there to help). Or later, in The Dragon Reborn, when Mat tries to save the trio in Tear and they don't acknowledge it, this sets up a sub-plot of (rather silly) mutual resentment that doesn't get resolved for another... four books? 

In such scenes, RJ was grappling with the same kinds of questions that a more modern "progressive" storyline (thinking of something like The Force Awakens here) might: what do men and women, both individually and as groups, "owe" each other? Does a desire to save someone rob them of their independence as a social actor and imply a lack of respect? Does that still matter when someone is in danger, and if so, how do you negotiate the space between the answers to these questions?

But the execution was often clumsy, primarily at the interpersonal rather than social level - with key characters disbelieving that their other-gendered counterparts were entitled to social agency long past the point where that could be remotely justified, especially in circumstances where the broader world created tended to afford both men and women alike power and agency.

One hope I have for the show is that, by emphasising gender issues at the social level, it can ease off a bit on some of the clumsy interpersonal stuff in the books. 

I really enjoyed reading your perspective!

 As a reader, I love character interaction.  So those character interactions and struggles were always more interesting to me than how RJ's societies and cultures responded to those questions. 

For example, one of my favorite scenes is where Aviendha is flabbergasted over Elayne's dismissive attitude towards Mat after his rescue attempt. I found it hilarous and well written ... plus was so relieved that someone finally stood up for poor Mat. 

21 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Like a tiny Seanchen princess beating up a young hero that could defeat two of the best fighters in the whole land with nothing but a stick?

 

TO be fair..... by the time she did that, it had been well established that Tuon was incredibly capable, survived multiple assassination attempts, and had trained. 

And Matt, Rand, and Perrin each wrestled with hurting women... even black ajah and foresaken. 

So was he really fighting her? 

I am turning a little from your point, but I think these details and nuances matter. 

All of that to end with this thought.... 

I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE TUON ON SCREEN. 

She was one of my favorites and one of the least predictable which will make her soo fun on screen. 

5 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

One of the things that amuses me about this conversation is that you can take Rafe's pitch, transport it back to the mid-nighties, clean up the corporate speak, and the substance of it would be sound a lot like things fans would say to describe the premise of the series.

 

The books were "progressive" in the way RJ already deconstructed gender roles, norms, etc in his worldbuilding.   There are ways that he did it well, ways that he didn't do it so well, but the basic deconstructions were already baked into the cake.

 

One benefit that WOT has over GOT is they are not going to run into the Daenerys problem where the popularity of the character in the minds of a lot of fans made the showrunners afraid to lay the plot foundations for Martin's planned end to her story.  (I can see this creating some risks for Egwene's storyline if they chase a similar level of popularity for her.)

 

 

 

 

 

I think the brilliance of Jordan was his inversion of the Gender norms.... good and bad. Nynaeve was incredibly powerful and essential to the plot. She also spent the majority of the series being insufferably full of herself  and had to learn humility. Behind her? A very capable man who kept her grounded, but (while sooooo important) saw it as his duty to support her so that she could effect change. 

Traditionally, those gender roles would have been reversed. 

Could give 1000 examples of this from Emond's Field alone. 

What people seem to be worried COULD happen.... is that we get very powerful, amazing, women with NO flaws and bumbling men who can't control themselves. I don't want that story.  I will say this thread and the comments about how you need to pitch a series makes me feel a little better ? .

On 10/19/2021 at 1:56 PM, Maximillion said:

I am a bit worried about how the pitch was described, TBH.

 

I just hope they don't overdo that and make it overtly modern day issue driven.

 

Also Amazons motivation - Bezos's pet GoT project.

With the LoTR series also coming to Amazon, this might be a case of which one gets cancelled - two bets to bring one man his prize.

 

 

I completely agree. I just wanna watch my favorite book series come to life. I have zero interest in it being injected with modern day politics. The show really shouldn’t need any right? It’s already matriarchal and turns gender norms on their head……Which is its brilliance.

1 hour ago, TheDreadReader said:

I'm more worried about what Socrates is thinking in the background of the picture of Thom.

 

I literally laughed out loud. Like people heard me and judged me. 

On 10/11/2021 at 11:26 AM, swollymammoth said:

 

 

THIS I FORETELL! This show is going to be like the Star Wars prequels. Everyone's gonna go nuts because they want to like it so bad. Initial reviews will be great. People on this forum are gonna splooge about how great it is, but as time goes on it will become more and more difficult to apologize for the show's shortcomings. By the time Egwene is revealed to be the Dragon Reborn in Season 2, everyone will finally have to admit that it's not what they'd always wanted from a WoT TV show after all. 

Well there you go.... articulating my worst fears. 

On 10/13/2021 at 8:28 AM, Maximillion said:

From the Epsiode 1 clip I am getting a Xena Warrior Princess or Hercules kind of feeling rather than GoT or LOTR.  Feels cheap and the acting not being very believable.

 

I hope I am wrong.  Does anyone know the budget for this?

My husband said the exact same thing. Want this to be GoT level.... not a SyFy mini-series....

When I think of Thom, I think of  his mustache. 

And if Nynaeve doesn't tug her braid within the first 20 minutes of the episode all hope for this series is lost. ?