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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

DojoToad

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Posts posted by DojoToad

  1.   On 10/28/2022 at 5:58 PM, WhiteVeils said:

    👍

    US Party Politics, just for starters.  If a political party (and I'm not picking either one) can stoke and turn something into a wedge issue to stir up its voters, it does so. That's why you hear so much complaining about 'Woke' shows...politicians profit from that stuff.   In addition, other countries benefit from a divided and fractured US culture. Russian and Chinese government funded trolls and bots do insert themselves into our pop-culture discourse, increasing polarization for their own political gain. It isn't the majority of social media negative interactions, but the effect is still strong, and likely getting stronger because it's working pretty well. 

    Half of the Star Wars: The Last Jedi backlash was Russian bots and trolls - The Verge 
    No, half of The Last Jedi haters were not Russian trolls - CNET
    'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' reactions show how right-wing Twitter agitators adopted Russian tactics (nbcnews.com)

    There's lots of articles arguing whether it was half, or only 10% or so, but in this case I'm not arguing how much of an effect it has, but that this influence exists in a statistically measurable fashion at all)

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    Not sure I see what you mean here.  Maybe the politics aspect is screwing me up.  Why would Russians or whomever want to spam ratings for Last Jedi, WoT or whatever?  What is the payoff?  No one does the work without some benefit, right?

     

      On 10/28/2022 at 5:58 PM, WhiteVeils said:

     

    Does sharing how strongly one dislikes the show enhance one's experience of the show, or does it reinforce itself by finding other like-minded individuals? I honestly don't see how complaining about something enhances one's own experience of that something, or enhances the experience others have of that thing? How does bringing your opinions and thoughts dragging a show, movie, book, etc, down, make the world a better place?  I guess I just feel like that would be terribly exhausting and depressing for everyone.

    Thumper says: If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.  

     

    Sometimes you can't do that. If faced with evil, injustice, racism, sexism, bullying, etc, you have a responsibility to call that what it is and make it stop.  But, otherwise? Life's short.  People should get to like things if those things aren't actively doing harm.   Even if you hated Wheel of Time the show, letting people like it means that industry might be willing to put more time, money, and effort into things sort of like that in the future, which is all good for you.

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    No, I don't think sharing how strongly one dislikes the show enhances the experience, anymore than sharing how much I love it would enhance the experience.

     

    In my case, WoT books are my all-time favorite (as I'm sure they are for many here).  So when the show disappointed on such a grand scale, I came here looking to commiserate with folks that were also disappointed.  So complaining doesn't enhance, but maybe I feel a little better knowing I'm not alone in my disenchantment.

     

    Through the process I read heavily on both sides of the like scale.  I don't hate people that disagree with me, nor do I like people that agree with me.  We're all just a bunch of people that like/love WoT that get together to discuss it.

     

    Obviously having people agree with me is gratifying to a certain extent.  But I'm looking for insights/views different than mine as well.  Maybe my 'hate' for the show is unwarranted or just over-stated due to my closeness to the source material.  Anything I respond to I have read and maybe that helps me moderate my views.  The show might be a 4 out of 10 instead of a 3.  Everything I've read here may help me look at S2 more charitably.

     

    But in the end each of us likes/dislikes based on what's inside - whether it be a favorite color, ice cream flavor, sports team...

     

    Sharing dislikes isn't evil even as sharing likes isn't inherently good.  They are all part of the same discussion.

     

     

  2.   On 10/28/2022 at 5:44 PM, SinisterDeath said:

    Yes... and again, look where you are.

     

    Those who make "hating" the show and/or book their entire personality, are the antithesis to this fan site. There's no safety for them here. They can find that on Facebook/Twitter/Reddit.

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    I don't do Facebook/Twitter/Reddit.  DM is all I have for WoT.  I'm a sad, sad little man...

     

    While I do tend to love the books and hate the show, I think I'm fair in appreciating the shows strong points while acknowledging the weak points of the books.

  3.   On 10/28/2022 at 1:21 PM, SinisterDeath said:

    Back in my day, if you didn't like a show, you turned the channel.

    There's having an opinion about a show you don't like.

    And then there's people who make hating the show's existence their personality/internet persona. 

    The former are appreciated, the latter are tiring.

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    It is not your day (nor mine) any longer. 😥

     

    People who make loving the show's existence their personality/internet persona are just as tiring...

  4.   On 10/27/2022 at 7:07 PM, WhiteVeils said:

    I think things are a little harder to do an adaptation for right at the current moment in history than they were previously for a couple of reasons.

     

    1) Special effects in television in a few, very specific shows, have gotten to 'movie level' special effects, and movie level special effects have gotten so good that people cannot imagine that there is any kind of size or scale or subtlety of visual expression that cannot be done with CGI and special effects.   So they can critique minutia (the behavior and color of weaves of magic) like it was something that was not virtually a miracle to uniquely animate and just 'expect  to be perfect'.  They have no idea what kind of time and power it creates to make an army of trollocs or threads of saidin or a ferry sinking into a whirlpool. It is not enough for it to match current television special effects standards, it has to match a reality they can only imagine, and if it doesn't, it's a failure.  

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    Good point.  We do tend to get spoiled when we see something amazing and then expect everything to be that good without regard to cost and other factors.

     

      On 10/27/2022 at 7:07 PM, WhiteVeils said:

    2) There's a very well funded movement that focuses on attacking many, many aspects of pop culture, trying to divide Americans into camps to create infighting and division. 

     

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    What is the well-funded movement?  It's probably something obvious, but I'm not aware of its existence...

     

      On 10/27/2022 at 7:07 PM, WhiteVeils said:

    We can't just be grateful for a cool show or ignore a not cool one...we have to have an opinion on it, we have to figure out who supports that show, determine whether or not we agree with that show's supporters, and then take that into consideration when we decide.   You can blame internal political forces or external ones (or a bit of both) but it's been true since the STar Wars prequels.  It didn't used to be that way.  We didn't worry about it for Willow or Krull or anything.  

    There're other reasons, but that's part of it.

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    An opinion?  Sure we all have opinions  and some of us come to DM to express them.  We also come here to interact, share thoughts and emotions, ask questions, and speculate about the future.

     

    If it was good enough just to be grateful for a cool show - then there would be no one on DM praising it.  They want to interact with people that enjoyed it as much as they did.  "That scene was way better than the book."  "Did everyone love what they did with that character as much as I did?"

     

    Same for the other way around.  "What were they thinking in that scene?  Ugh!"  "Why is a minor character getting so much screen time?"

     

    The world is a lot different than when Willow and Krull came out - including places like DM.  People come here because it enhances their experience with the books, the show, or likely both.  Your statement seems to say be grateful or ignore it and let that be the end.  Don't bring your opinions or thoughts.  Am I misunderstanding?

  5. Now there is a thought.

     

    Initially, I would have said no way - the Sharans are too different than his conservative back-water ways.

     

    But so were the Aiel, Sea Folk, and just about everyone else he met to greater or lesser degrees.  He managed to work with them all - some more successfully than others.

  6. Sanderson's own work is a hard read for me.  I initially like the first Mistborn trilogy, but upon re-read - not so much.

     

    I didn't have any problem reading his WoT books - read them all twice so far.  I really enjoyed MoL.  But maybe the book just isn't for you.  I like how it wraps up several of the characters, also don't mind how it leaves some characters and plots open-ended.  You don't have to like it, but I think it is worth putting in the hard work to get through it.  You may change your mind on completion - or not...

  7.   On 10/27/2022 at 1:28 PM, SinisterDeath said:

    GoT is the outlier of Fantasy Television

     

     

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    It may be an outlier, but Fantasy can translate to TV.  Difficult that it may be...

     

      On 10/27/2022 at 1:28 PM, SinisterDeath said:

     



    Lest us not forget, that George R.R. Martin spent time as a screen writer (Beauty and the BeastThe Outer Limits) 

    For screenwriters, his work has the advantage of generally being easier to translate directly to the screen then other works of fantasy.

     

     

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    I remember that.  So do we need writers looking at the source material differently to make the translation to the small screen better?

     

      On 10/27/2022 at 1:28 PM, SinisterDeath said:


    It's also easy to forget that many purists hated on the show (before season 8 ) for the changes they made to the source material throughout the show.

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    I only watched S1 - it was very true to the book.  I heard that the next several seasons were also very true to the source material.  Whether that translated to a good show is a different discussion.

  8.   On 10/27/2022 at 12:27 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

    Yes but that does not explain how Rand came up with the idea in the first place. What made him make that decision that he should go there and let the Aiel go home. At that point he had no idea of the Aiel Prophesies, other then he might be the figure they where seeking.

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    It might be a tired tool, but the pattern forced him to the Waste.

  9.   On 10/27/2022 at 7:43 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

    Having now watched season 1 of both I wonder is the biggest lesson here that Fantasy adaptations are just really tricky. Both Rings of Power and Wheel of Time have had the same criticism leveled at them by many. 
     

    Breaking from source material. 
    Character development is too different. 
    A poor script. 
     

    Personally I think some of this criticism is fair, while other is reaching but focusing on the issues raised by many (but ignoring anything about diversity of casting, those arguments are just beyond). Both series have their good points but, my main issues with both series does come from the condensing. WOT feels rushed. As if it needed an extra 2 episodes a season and possibly more seasons. 
     

    Rings of power tries to condense 3000 years of story into 1 generation (all be it the long lived Numenorian generation) and again makes some very questionable changes to the original source material. 

    But is the issue actually that Fantasy stories do not translate as well or as easily? Game if Thrones started strong, but, as the tv show writers needed to make up more and more story it dropped off. Witcher also suffers, especially in season 2 where the writers feel the need to break away from the written word (although it does not suffer as badly). 

     

    It isn’t like Adaptations can’t ever be good, the Expanse, the Boys, Papergirls and even jack reacher are just 4 that Amazon pulls off well, the changes made to the source material makes sense and keeps to the tone of the original work. 
     

    So is there an issue that fantasy just can’t translate as well to TV? 

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    I think you answered your own question - with GoT.  It was strong for many seasons before they started making changes and/or ran out of source material.  So fantasy can translate to TV.

  10.   On 10/27/2022 at 8:37 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

    I get all that, but, it seemed to have no basis in anything like a plan, when he left what was he expecting? It seems he gets to Rhuidean and only then realises what he needs to do, before then he does not seem to have a plan or a clue. It almost reads like RJ knows where he needs to get him but can't think of a good reason why he would go.  

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    The Pattern pushes/pulls on ta'veren more than others...

  11.   On 10/27/2022 at 7:23 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

    I have always seen Egwenes story being a tragedy in the line of some of the best stories. Going right back writers have always understood the power of a great tragic tale vs a heroic one. And as many have said Egwenes story more then any others is the parallel to Rands. Even the end. 
     

    At the very start of the books when Lewis Therin breaks the world he leaves the indelible sight of Dragon Mount, A mountain sticking out if the earth. 
     

    When Egwene, with her weave undoing the cracks, fixed the world she left a beautiful glass like spike to remind the world of what is possible. Those are the 2 bookends to the series. 

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    Never thought of that parallel before.  Huzzah!

  12.   On 10/26/2022 at 8:18 PM, jigson said:

    I began reading the books early 90's. I re-read the entire series every time a new book came out until the end. 

    The show for me is a disaster.

    Mr. Jordan did an exceptional job on the series.

     

    I was disappointed from the first scene to the last, and I find myself watching and asking "why would they change that?" "Why would they completely change this character?" The majority of the changes seemed so unnecessary other than to prop up the ego of the man in charge.

     

    I've re-watched the entire series a few times in hopes I would find something I like about it, but simply cannot.

    My only hope now is that they ditch this miserable mess, and in a few years try again with a show runner who will honor the integrity of Mr. Jordan's masterpiece.

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    Similar background to you with how often I read the books.  But I could only manage to watch the first 4 episodes twice before I gave up on the show.

     

    There are others that have read it as much but like the show anyway.  Do some reading and check out their thoughts as well.  Didn't help me like the show anymore, but changed some of my thoughts toward the books.  Really looking forward to my next re-read.

  13.   On 10/26/2022 at 3:00 AM, Dagon Thyne said:

    I was always hoping that Fain was being built up as a literal vessel for the DO, that the DO needed a human form to truly enter the pattern.  

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    Not sure this applies to the topic - which I read as: what happened behind the scenes in the books that we want dragged to the forefront of the show.  I think your thought is asking for a change in the books.

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