58 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

On the other hand, the books aren't as simplistic as you might suppose.  The Foresaken are petty and selfish, but so are a lot of the regular people.  Taim has a persuasive storyarc in the books from a man who just wanted glory and credit for the things he does. He could have otherwise been very good, he did build the tower and do what Rand wanted, but he never got the respect he was due and eventually it turned him towards the dark. We just don't see it in his own POV.

I would expand it to say that a lot of 'good' people are petty and selfish.

But I think the show needs to be more organic about how this is shown.  Dana gives a little speech to the 'good' guys.  She was telling instead of showing.  Saves time, but a pretty ham-fisted way to explore character depth.

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

Funny thing about that considering the attitudes of the forsaken.  Several times in the books the Forsaken are unwilling to join a circle unless they were leading it as they didn't trust one another.  Imagine that but with the possibility of the circle leading being able to burn you out.

 

One thing we know about most darkfriends is that they join the shadow to amass power for themselves.  They are not the most willing to sacrifice themselves.

Not the most willing?  I would say not willing at all. 😝

7 minutes ago, Guire said:

I think Sinister layed this out nicely.  I still want to clarify my thoughts.  Hollywood has forced nudity on younger actors at times that the actors felt they had to do in order to work.  Or roles were limited to actors whose bodies were appealing to studio.  I see this as bad for actors and for me.

 

However say you are a yoga instructor or athlete that has an attractive body and you are comfortable with nudity.  Getting an occasional paycheck that might greatly enhance your quality of life is a positive.  You can share what you do or not but you have agency.

 

 

Thanks for fleshing out your reply.

The problem still remains that if the director wants nudity, the director will get it.  Just needs to say: "This one scene requires nudity.  If you are not comfortable, I'll move on to someone else."  The pressure becomes self-imposed by the actor if they want to work and the director is off the hook.

47 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Can we all agree, that if an actor doesn't want to get naked on set, that they should never be pressured into it? And under no circumstances should they ever forced to get naked?

Yes.  Though I don't think that is how the industry works.  Many feel pressure to get bare - thinking it will be their big break.  This coming from an industry outsider.

47 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

That if a body double wishes to be credited anonymously, then those wishes should be granted?

That if an actor loves going naked on set, or a body double wants their name out there, then more power to them?

Yes - their name out there might generate future opportunities to show their 'stuff'.  Imagine others might just want the immediate payday and move on.

2 hours ago, Guire said:

I would counter that the majority of people in the world are pieces of meat for their jobs.  Some get adequate compensation others don't.  In this instance, my enjoyment of a movie or show is greatly increased by the skill of the actor and their ability to draw me into their character.  Limiting roles to people who fit a certain body type or appearance naked might cut out the perfect actor for that role.  Some people with attractive bodies seem to really enjoy staying fit and showing off their bodies in various states of nudity.  I just see it as another job easily moved on from with no long term consequences for the performer.  This changes if anonymous body doubles start being attributed in credits.  But otherwise good work if you can get it.

So if the nude role is attributed the actor is a piece of meat.  But if it is anonymous, it is a great opportunity?

41 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Because there are very very good actors who don't want to get naked on set anymore, it also perpetuates the idea that an actress must look a certain way with her clothes off, meaning crash diets, use of surgery to remove every little roll or stretch mark etc. There is a reason the industry moved to body doubles many years ago and that was to help actors feel safe and secure and because directors where saying things like. "your great and all but your ass is a bit saggy compared to how I want my leading lady and you have that naked shower scene so sorry your not the right person". 

This way the Director gets what they want, and the actor is not treated like a piece of meat and lets be honest, it was 95% women being objectified in that way. 

So now only the body double is treated as a piece of meat?  Progress…

47 minutes ago, AdamA said:

It is unfortunate that the book length and show shortness are going to force a lot of cuts, but I'd first look to seriously trimming down things like Elayne's succession drama, Faile's kidnapping, and healing the weather,

They should cut some/all of that - but the question is will it be to provide room for canon material like Hinderstap or for more Stepin-like arcs?

I’m most of the way through the book. One surprise was the lack of ‘Eastern’ influence. There is some, but thought there’d be more.   Unscientific guesstimate would put influences at 90+ percent western. Irish, British, European with a decent amount of middle eastern. What do you all think?

I think I prefer creator avatar. Both doesn’t make sense as why would a Jenn help the Aiel that abandoned the way of the leaf?  I understand the Creator not being more involved because of free will. 

4 hours ago, WheelofJuke said:

Darn you, now I'm hungry for fried chicken! 😄

Fried lizard 

6 hours ago, Cranglevoid said:

The writers and Rafe simple aren't skilled enough to pull it off and they are just making the story worse with their changes. They could have, and should have, stuck much more closely to the original.

I did like several changes they made.  But overall disliked many more.  So don't know that it came down to a matter of skill so much as it did to interpretation.  In the end I believe the show was crap - too many things I didn't like subjectively.  And several choices I didn't like objectively as well.

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Did you forget about Lan?

That setup is 100% for explaining what happens with Lan after Moiraine. 
It obviously sets up some extra tension with Rand... But also explains Egwene in the final battle.

I did not forget Lan or Egwene. I still think Stepin’s arc could have been much compressed and still gotten the point across. 

3 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Never understood the hate for that

Personal preference I guess. I actually liked a lot of the characters from the circus including Luca, but the whole high-wire act with Elayne was too much for me. 

Doesn't make my version.  One of my least favorite parts of the books - just a step ahead of Luca's circus.

6 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

How is this a re-imagining? The basis of the story is the same, what Rafe had to do was find ways of getting important information to the audience who have not read the book in the limited amount of time. The scenes that people seem to complain about make alot of sense. Adding in the Logain stuff, allows the viewer to see how men channel, to see how they are different to women. Adding in the Aes Sedai dying, the suicide of the Warder. That is one of the key most important things that Viewers need to understand as a thread through the series because, at the last battle, if Alanna dies, the viewer needs to feel that tension, that worry about what happens to Rand. 
 

Agreed that adding the Logain scenes was an excellent addition on the front end - specifically to show the difference between male/female channeling.

Have to disagree with Aes Sedai death and warder suicide.  Could have been hit on when the warders were having their kumbaya moment around the campfire.  They could have even taken a few minutes to show his anguish, finding the body, and the funeral in 5 minutes of screen time.  That would have left more time for developing the main characters instead of hoping that viewers will remember a minor character 7 seasons later - "Oh my gosh!!  If Alanna dies, Rand is screwed!!!"

20 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Rand being able to channel so much thanks to the eye is a pretty clear early bookism. That and the eye being a one of a kind thing + Rand being the Dragon Reborn + Rand being pretty much the strongest taveren.

 

Its not supposed to make sense given the established rules of channelling, but at the same time those rules get broken at times, impossible things become possible, so I feel like this is one of those mysteries that are acceptable. 

 

I do worry a little about showcasing such immense power so early, without the precise conditions Rand was given in the book. And there's a lot of stuff Rand pulls in the books where you just go eh, he's the Dragon Reborn, so pass.

Agreed. Kind of like turning water into wine. You make allowances for the Christ figure. Not only can they do things others can’t, they can do things that others, including themselves, never thought was possible. 

12 hours ago, Sabio said:

A bit off topic but it would be interesting if you had a Wind Finder say use the female statue to channel into the bowl how far you could change the weather.

I think you could get to the extremes of climate change worldwide. Ice age or global warming…

You all are talking way over my head. This definitely gives me something else to consider on the next read through…

The Atan warriors have a lot in common with the Aiel.

• peerless warriors
• serious demeanor with outsiders
• taller than other people
• women are as likely to be warriors as men
• can effortlessly keep up with horses while on foot

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

So you hired Rafe?

I said Amazon didn’t hire someone up to the task. 

59 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Who says they haven't?

Me

8 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Or 64 hours to present ~461 hours of audiobook material. It's a monumental task.

It is.  They should have hired someone up to the task.

I don't know what Rafe wanted, but he messed up the first 4 episodes enough to make me stop watching the season.  

47 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

It is there job. Litterally.
Showrunners & writers aren't nearly as powerful as they used to be in a shows direction. Streaming services like Netflix/Amazon, don't operate how old-school TV used to be run.

Now days, if a Producer/Executive says add a giant mechanical spider tank in the show, the showrunner/writers can't tell them to go balefire themselves.

 

And some are much better than others.

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Oh I got a tear in my eye as well and yes a big cheer internally and almost out loud (but I was in public lol) I do find I have always re read those few pages 2-3 times every time I come to them and read them again. But yes in those moments Jordan was great at putting across emotion without shoving down your throat how everyone feels. And he understands he doesn't need to use pages and pages to paint the picture of that moment. 

It does make me wonder how differently the last battle would have been written by him, I feel it would have needed less words and would have delivered more of an emotional punch. 

Alas, we will never know...