2 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

 I don't know why people equate these 2 oaths.

 

 Elaida wanted all Aes Sedai To swear  fealty to her And to  Obey her every comman   Such an oath would have literally made her an absolute power Without any balances from Even the hall of the tower.   She could have Literally ordered the hall of the tower to change tower law to whatever she wanted it changed to even if it meant passing the law that says she could never be deposed.  

 

 That is very different from the oath that moraine swears in the show which is that she will accept a possibly permanent exile and will only return to the tower when commanded by the Sivan.  

 

 I am not sure how anyone would ever see that These 2 oaths are anywhere near being the same.

 

 

Because neither had ever been done before - as far as anyone will admit.

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

As per my original question this is one option, but, you lose a lot of TV show time for other stories that are key to the last battle as well, or important world building. You also have the issues of finding sets that look very very different to the rest of the show, so there will be a cost implication to filming scenes that might not be as important as others. So I am still very torn and can see the last battle working without the Sharan attack. 

As badly as I think the books set up the Sharan attack, it did make me wonder just how much more the forces of light could take. The attack was a devastating blow from my perspective and truly made me wonder how the good guys would survive. The TV show has the opportunity to improve the set up for the Sharans and to stack the deck against the light without the ‘cheating’ feeling I got from the books. 

50 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

For a second there I thought you where saying the first few episodes of the UK Office where bad lol. I always forget you had your own version in the US, never got round to watching it. 

I never saw the UK version.  US version started slow but was great - IMO.  But as always, individual viewers may experience different results...

13 hours ago, gd3123 said:

The Creator has already showed up and “nudged” Rand in the past by speaking directly to him.  This is consistent with the level of involvement by Nakomi, which was very passive in nature, in the Shayol Ghul.  It’s perfectly consistent with what came before. 

Here we go with the absolutes again.  Glad Nakomi worked for you perfectly.  RJ and BS did the exact right thing in the best way possible...

Just blows my mind that you can't see this is subjective and that others of us can have different opinions without being wrong.  No problem though - get that way myself sometimes.

2 hours ago, chongjasmine said:

I think Faile is just jealous. Maybe she feels insecure about her relationship with Perrin.

And trying to please her parents 

It’s okay. Some good stuff. 

4 hours ago, Skipp said:

Have to agree to disagree then because episode 8 had many great moments.

 

Online fandoms are not always the representation of the entire fandom.  Also people tend to voice their complaints louder than their enjoyment, the 3 vs 33 rule and all.

Agree - people voice complaints way faster than compliments.

4 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

And what under performance?  The show being one of Amazon's most watched series of all time?  The show making it back into Amazons top 10 during Rings of Powers season?  Or the fact that many nonbook readers really seem to like the show?

Both objective and subjective reasons to dislike the show.  And the same for liking it.

4 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

The season was by no means perfect and I understand I love it more than reasonable by that standard. But I am also a person to tends to enjoy things I enjoy and leave the things I don't.  Knowing all of that the show is not the travesty some people make it out to be.

 

Season 2 will really be the test of R2J2 and the rest of the crew but I wouldn't expect it to change everyone's minds.

Still hoping S2 is an improvement.  Then I can live with the less than stellar S1.  Not an RJ2 fan yet, but I can get past it if he brings the goods in S2.  I was able to get past the first several episodes for S1 of 'The Office' which I didn't like on first blush and can also appreciate the weaker seasons at the end after Steve Carell left.  There is hope for me.  Weak, but it is there...

4 hours ago, gd3123 said:

I see what you are saying, but since BS wrote it and his word is final when it comes to canon on that point, they have been proven wrong.  That is what I was referring to.  It was an open question as to what BS intended when AMOL was released, but it’s not a question anymore.  Brandon definitively answered it.  From a canonical perspective, there is no other answer 

 

 

Canon?  Sure I can accept that.  Good choice, still subjective and still making up my mind.  Thanks for the talk @gd3123

1 hour ago, gd3123 said:

It’s definitely what BS intended, if you take him at his word (I don’t see any reason not to)

Absolutely what BS intended - he said it and wrote it.  But was it what RJ intended?

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

it’s funny, I remember very spirited discussions on this forum years ago when AMOL came out, when a small minority screeched to the heavens that there was no way nakomi was an an avatar of the Creator.  They have been proven wrong, and RJ and BS made a good choice 

Your absolute statement that critics of the Creator's avatar have been proven wrong is still up for debate - both in that they made a good choice (subjective) and is it what RJ intended (possible, but not provable with available information).  The small minority you mention was wrong to eliminate all possibility that Nakomi was the Creator's avatar, but so is saying that she absolutely is - especially give that BS described her as 'kind of an avatar, but not quite'.

9 minutes ago, gd3123 said:

While it may not be absolute gospel as to what RJ would have intended (although the weight of evidence certainly points in that direction), it is absolute gospel in terms of canon since BS was selected by RJ and Harriet to complete the series, and that is what he wrote and intended   

So is it what he intended or no, you appear to be saying both...

5 minutes ago, gd3123 said:

So you think BS is just lying when he says: “I decided that this woman was the Creator’s version of Shaidar Haran, something Jordan had explained a little in the notes” ?

 

 

No, I'm saying that you are reading BS's decision to create Nakomi as absolute gospel when I believe there is room for alternative explanations for what RJ may have been thinking.  I'm saying you may be right or you may be wrong.

1 minute ago, gd3123 said:

I don’t think that’s true. We know that RJ specifically wrote that passage from AMOL, which included an unnamed mystery woman passively assisting Rand.  All indications is that is SEPARATE from what BS found “in the notes”, which he is saying relates to the idea of an avatar of the Creator.
 

in any event, if BS says this was the intent, it’s white definitive at this point   

Not when BS said that he decided and no one else on team Jordan knew anything about it.  But you draw you're own conclusions...

2 minutes ago, gd3123 said:

Sorry, you’re correct that it was in Origins.  I misspoke when I referenced the Companion.

 

in Origins it says “I decided that this woman was the Creator’s version of Shaidar Haran, something Jordan had explained a little in the notes. A vessel, kind of an avatar, but not quite.”

 

so I read this as the idea of an avatar of the creator was in RJ’s notes.  Perhaps BS took the extra step of analogizing her to SH, but the avatar concept for her was explained in the notes 

It certainly wasn't explicit in RJ's notes.  In fact it states outright that there was 'a single line of instruction' in relation to Rand while leaving Shayol Ghul --- "An unknown woman says to Rand, 'Yes, that's good, that's what you need to do.'  She hurries off."  You and BS may have drawn a correct conclusion, but that is hardly definitive - especially to say something like: 'They have been proven wrong.'

7 minutes ago, gd3123 said:

Unless BS is lying, based on the Companion the avatar idea did come from RJ.  

According to 'Origins' BS decided to make Nakomi the opposite of Shaidar Haran.  Where in the 'Companion' did it say Nakomi was an avatar?  Not under her name...

14 minutes ago, holger said:

I don't think there is any doubt that he will become a blade master. If Rafe had wanted to change that then he would not have given Rand a Heron-marked sword, with hints at its significance (e.g. by Ishy commenting on it in E8).

 

I see two ways for them to play this: one is to get Rand close to blade master skills by the end of S2, like in the books. For that we would have to see at least three scenes with Lan and Rand training (1. beginning/setup, 2. making progress, 3. becoming very skilled), and a few dropped lines in Lan/Moiraine/Rand conversations about their ongoing training. Also, they would have to stretch that time to at least two months. THAT is where I am worried, because that long of a period of time would have to match the events in the main plot, and would also have to match the other characters' story arcs.

 

The other option is to get Rand only partially towards blade master skills in S2, and use different mechanics in the final S2 fights, e.g. concentrate more on the One Power for that, to make them believable. Rand would then probably have to pause his training during S3 (Aiel waste), and could continue the training once he is in Cairhien and Caemlyn, probably from someone other than Lan.

Or there could have been one training scene in S1 and they would be a step ahead.

They certainly had time with Mat not needing any scenes in the last two episodes...

8 minutes ago, gd3123 said:

I think for many of us, it fits together quite well, and the explanation has always made sense.  Just because Nakomi is somewhat of an analog to Shaidar Hagan doesn’t mean all the same exact rules need to apply to her.

 

it’s funny, I remember very spirited discussions on this forum years ago when AMOL came out, when a small minority screeched to the heavens that there was no way nakomi was an an avatar of the Creator.  They have been proven wrong, and RJ and BS made a good choice 

Have they been proven wrong?  BS decided to create Nakomi on his own based on a single line from RJ - which may or may not have been RJ's intention at all.  No one on Jordan's team had any idea what it was or what it meant, so BS made a decision.  You may be right, but there is nothing definitive to back you up - so you could also be wrong...

Not that I recall.  All individual - horse racing, sword fighting, bows, staves, dice, etc.

Well, maybe battles.  Can't have a battle without a team...

5 minutes ago, holger said:

Yes, of course, lol, that was not my point. The point is that from a narrative perspective basic self defense training does not contribute meaningfully to the story. Anyone can learn self defense, and from a non-book-readers perspective Rand might well already have learned that in the Two Rivers. What makes Rand special is that he becomes a blade master. THAT is what we need to see happen, and THAT only starts in book 2 / S2.

We shall see.  I wouldn't be surprised if Rafe changes something here and Rand never becomes a blade master.

11 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

 

Ahhh, so she didn't pick up on the WoT basically being fantasy smut?

 

You know with all that talk on bossoms, well turned calves, sexy eyebrows, solid shoulders, pillow friends, skirt straightening, hair pulling, etc.

 

Not to mention genital shaped Towers and islands.

 

Actually, maybe she did notice...

 

You know what, we probably shouldn't be talking about this in public..

 

Shhhhhhh..

Just call it soft-core porn and be done with it.  😉

9 minutes ago, holger said:

To be fair, in the books Lan does not know that Rand is the DR until the end of book 1, so all of the training Lan gives the boys earlier is just basic weapon-based self defense and pretty much irrelevant for becoming a blademaster.

That is incorrect.  Even a blade master learns basics.  That is how they keep from injuring/killing themselves and their training partners as they move on to more advanced techniques.

5 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean for me, having read the books multiple times, it is such a minor moment that I hadn't even considered it being important in season 1 (and I still don't). I have always been looking forward far far more to Lan Rand training after book 1, when Rand is truly learning how to fight with a sword and Lan teaches him to Sheath the Sword, and, more then that, training with Rhurac and Lan in the 3 fold land. Learning the Sword with Lan, then the Spears with Rhurac and then hand to hand fighting with both (I really want a scene where he manages to hold them both off as they try and fight him together. 

For Mat, the fight with Galad and Gawyn is the one I have always looked forward to, far far better then some farmboys learning the rudiments of fighting with a sword. I mean, to show it properly that opening book one fight montage should involve the dropping of the sword/axe, slipping on there own feet, being put on their backs by lan. I never pictured it as a heroic moment, I pictured it as what it was, 3 boys who had never fought like that before falling over themselves and looking stupid for day after day. I never wanted TV time wasted on the kind of montages I have seen over and over on TV. 

No give me a montage of an already competent Rand fighting with the spears, the Aiel standing around watching, more and more every day, small wagers being made with the betting slowly shifting to being placed on Rand to win. That is the scenes I want. 

So from 0 to 100 in nothing flat?

I'd prefer the bumble-footed farm boys that progress 15 to 30 seconds at a time.  Mat already knows what he needs with the staff though I'm sure he could refine his technique (plus maybe picking up more tricks after visit with Aelfinn).  Someone mentioned Perrin might pick up an advantage from his wolf connection (instinct) - and his strength is already a plus once he learns how to control it.  Rand has the flame and the void, channeling, and perhaps Lews Therin's knowledge.  So all three could progress faster than expected but would all start with clumsiness.

Seems more realistic than moving from farmboy to Nynaeve ninja level 100 with no intervening steps.  But given what we saw from S1, you are probably correct - All the boys will be weapons masters without any training required.

5 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Rafe decided to skip that opening more languid ride (which would have eaten up at least half an episode) to get them to where they needed to be (SL) as quickly as possible. 

Yes he did.  He chose and we will see where that leads.

So now Rand's first experience with the sword comes much later - and he still has to fight the blade master in pretty short order.  Or maybe Lan takes care of that for him.  Or the teaser did show Nynaeve getting some sword training.  Whew!  Rand will be protected...

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

It doesn't undercut it.  It introduces a very important concept: That the Whitecloaks are not a monolithic organization, nor are they an organization dedicated only to defeating/killing Aes Sedai.  In the Show Universe, at least, there are many Whitecloaks who absolutely just want to kill as many Aes Sedai as they can, but there are also another significant faction of the Whitecloaks that aren't there to defeat Aes Sedai, but genuinely are out there to fight Darkfriends, or at least accomplish a political gain.

In the books, Jordan accomplishes this through an extended set of interactions between Bornhold and Perrin.

In the show, they accomplish that with just one line.

Agreed.  That one line showed that the organization was not monolithic - as you said.  But a bit of tension between Valda and the commander would have helped as well.  The line from the commander and a annoyed look from Valda in reaction would have pushed the point home - IMO.

11 hours ago, expat said:

A 15 second or background "scene" sounds like an easter egg for the book readers.  Without some explanation, the non-book readers won't have a clue. If the training is so important, it needs real scenes and not an easter egg.

 

Just because they aren't galloping all the way from EF doesn't suggest that they were lolly gagging on their trip, stopping with hours of daylight left, and Lan was so relaxed about the Shadowspawn that he was training the EF3 rather than scouting.  We can all agree that Lan was paranoid badass, not a relaxed person.

I'm not trying to fix the whole show.  Rafe screwed it up way too much for a know-nothing like me to unravel.  I was just trying to offer an alternative path for a glaring omission.

The background snippet of training needn't be without explanation that would leave non-book readers clueless - as I said, Moiraine could have been talking to Nynaeve/Egwene in the foreground.  Hell, Nyn or Eg could mention Mat's staff and Rand's bow abilities at past Bel Tine games.

Maybe not a perfect solution, but eminently more believable than Nynaeve leaping out of a pool of water to slaughter a trolloc by herself - without any background or explanation.

Must be time for me to read the books again