5 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Where are we?

The TV show forum...

17 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Changed one word in the quote, and that changes things, doesn't it?

It does.  Your point? 

33 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Back in my day, if you didn't like a show, you turned the channel.

There's having an opinion about a show you don't like.

And then there's people who make hating the show's existence their personality/internet persona. 

The former are appreciated, the latter are tiring.

It is not your day (nor mine) any longer. 😥

People who make loving the show's existence their personality/internet persona are just as tiring...

15 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

I think things are a little harder to do an adaptation for right at the current moment in history than they were previously for a couple of reasons.

 

1) Special effects in television in a few, very specific shows, have gotten to 'movie level' special effects, and movie level special effects have gotten so good that people cannot imagine that there is any kind of size or scale or subtlety of visual expression that cannot be done with CGI and special effects.   So they can critique minutia (the behavior and color of weaves of magic) like it was something that was not virtually a miracle to uniquely animate and just 'expect  to be perfect'.  They have no idea what kind of time and power it creates to make an army of trollocs or threads of saidin or a ferry sinking into a whirlpool. It is not enough for it to match current television special effects standards, it has to match a reality they can only imagine, and if it doesn't, it's a failure.  

Good point.  We do tend to get spoiled when we see something amazing and then expect everything to be that good without regard to cost and other factors.

15 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

2) There's a very well funded movement that focuses on attacking many, many aspects of pop culture, trying to divide Americans into camps to create infighting and division. 

 

What is the well-funded movement?  It's probably something obvious, but I'm not aware of its existence...

15 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

We can't just be grateful for a cool show or ignore a not cool one...we have to have an opinion on it, we have to figure out who supports that show, determine whether or not we agree with that show's supporters, and then take that into consideration when we decide.   You can blame internal political forces or external ones (or a bit of both) but it's been true since the STar Wars prequels.  It didn't used to be that way.  We didn't worry about it for Willow or Krull or anything.  

There're other reasons, but that's part of it.

An opinion?  Sure we all have opinions  and some of us come to DM to express them.  We also come here to interact, share thoughts and emotions, ask questions, and speculate about the future.

If it was good enough just to be grateful for a cool show - then there would be no one on DM praising it.  They want to interact with people that enjoyed it as much as they did.  "That scene was way better than the book."  "Did everyone love what they did with that character as much as I did?"

Same for the other way around.  "What were they thinking in that scene?  Ugh!"  "Why is a minor character getting so much screen time?"

The world is a lot different than when Willow and Krull came out - including places like DM.  People come here because it enhances their experience with the books, the show, or likely both.  Your statement seems to say be grateful or ignore it and let that be the end.  Don't bring your opinions or thoughts.  Am I misunderstanding?

Now there is a thought.

Initially, I would have said no way - the Sharans are too different than his conservative back-water ways.

But so were the Aiel, Sea Folk, and just about everyone else he met to greater or lesser degrees.  He managed to work with them all - some more successfully than others.

39 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Davram Bashere seems as mad as Lan in his choice of partner...

For real!  🤣

Sanderson's own work is a hard read for me.  I initially like the first Mistborn trilogy, but upon re-read - not so much.

I didn't have any problem reading his WoT books - read them all twice so far.  I really enjoyed MoL.  But maybe the book just isn't for you.  I like how it wraps up several of the characters, also don't mind how it leaves some characters and plots open-ended.  You don't have to like it, but I think it is worth putting in the hard work to get through it.  You may change your mind on completion - or not...

48 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

GoT is the outlier of Fantasy Television

 

 

It may be an outlier, but Fantasy can translate to TV.  Difficult that it may be...

48 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

Lest us not forget, that George R.R. Martin spent time as a screen writer (Beauty and the Beast, The Outer Limits) 

For screenwriters, his work has the advantage of generally being easier to translate directly to the screen then other works of fantasy.

 

 

I remember that.  So do we need writers looking at the source material differently to make the translation to the small screen better?

48 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

It's also easy to forget that many purists hated on the show (before season 8 ) for the changes they made to the source material throughout the show.

I only watched S1 - it was very true to the book.  I heard that the next several seasons were also very true to the source material.  Whether that translated to a good show is a different discussion.

6 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Yes but that does not explain how Rand came up with the idea in the first place. What made him make that decision that he should go there and let the Aiel go home. At that point he had no idea of the Aiel Prophesies, other then he might be the figure they where seeking.

It might be a tired tool, but the pattern forced him to the Waste.

4 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Having now watched season 1 of both I wonder is the biggest lesson here that Fantasy adaptations are just really tricky. Both Rings of Power and Wheel of Time have had the same criticism leveled at them by many. 
 

Breaking from source material. 
Character development is too different. 
A poor script. 
 

Personally I think some of this criticism is fair, while other is reaching but focusing on the issues raised by many (but ignoring anything about diversity of casting, those arguments are just beyond). Both series have their good points but, my main issues with both series does come from the condensing. WOT feels rushed. As if it needed an extra 2 episodes a season and possibly more seasons. 
 

Rings of power tries to condense 3000 years of story into 1 generation (all be it the long lived Numenorian generation) and again makes some very questionable changes to the original source material. 

But is the issue actually that Fantasy stories do not translate as well or as easily? Game if Thrones started strong, but, as the tv show writers needed to make up more and more story it dropped off. Witcher also suffers, especially in season 2 where the writers feel the need to break away from the written word (although it does not suffer as badly). 

 

It isn’t like Adaptations can’t ever be good, the Expanse, the Boys, Papergirls and even jack reacher are just 4 that Amazon pulls off well, the changes made to the source material makes sense and keeps to the tone of the original work. 
 

So is there an issue that fantasy just can’t translate as well to TV? 

I think you answered your own question - with GoT.  It was strong for many seasons before they started making changes and/or ran out of source material.  So fantasy can translate to TV.

You feel how you feel.  Hard to say if they could have done better with that.  They could have done something you appreciated more but alienated others.  I didn't watch that episode, so no opinion myself...

16 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I get all that, but, it seemed to have no basis in anything like a plan, when he left what was he expecting? It seems he gets to Rhuidean and only then realises what he needs to do, before then he does not seem to have a plan or a clue. It almost reads like RJ knows where he needs to get him but can't think of a good reason why he would go.  

The Pattern pushes/pulls on ta'veren more than others...

Rand was trying to be unexpected in his moves as you said, and trying not to be controlled by anyone.

Plus maybe it as just fear of directly confronting a Forsaken...

I always thought of it as a combination of Mat's luck and the ineptness of the Forsaken while working against each other.

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean it is a consistent thread in RJ’s writing that women never just tell men anything clearly. I do often wonder what it says about the relationship RJ witnessed and experienced in his life. But, pretty much every man in WOT is left constantly confused and bemused by women. Including minor characters like Gaul. 

Mommy issues?  🤣

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I have always seen Egwenes story being a tragedy in the line of some of the best stories. Going right back writers have always understood the power of a great tragic tale vs a heroic one. And as many have said Egwenes story more then any others is the parallel to Rands. Even the end. 
 

At the very start of the books when Lewis Therin breaks the world he leaves the indelible sight of Dragon Mount, A mountain sticking out if the earth. 
 

When Egwene, with her weave undoing the cracks, fixed the world she left a beautiful glass like spike to remind the world of what is possible. Those are the 2 bookends to the series. 

Never thought of that parallel before.  Huzzah!

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

Unlike the book ending where an untrained channeler wipes out an army of trollocs without even being touched. 

 

The difference is that the untrained channeler in the books was the Dragon.

17 hours ago, jigson said:

I began reading the books early 90's. I re-read the entire series every time a new book came out until the end. 

The show for me is a disaster.

Mr. Jordan did an exceptional job on the series.

 

I was disappointed from the first scene to the last, and I find myself watching and asking "why would they change that?" "Why would they completely change this character?" The majority of the changes seemed so unnecessary other than to prop up the ego of the man in charge.

 

I've re-watched the entire series a few times in hopes I would find something I like about it, but simply cannot.

My only hope now is that they ditch this miserable mess, and in a few years try again with a show runner who will honor the integrity of Mr. Jordan's masterpiece.

Similar background to you with how often I read the books.  But I could only manage to watch the first 4 episodes twice before I gave up on the show.

There are others that have read it as much but like the show anyway.  Do some reading and check out their thoughts as well.  Didn't help me like the show anymore, but changed some of my thoughts toward the books.  Really looking forward to my next re-read.

27 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I don't think so. For one, he couldn't even see their weaves.
Also remember when he teleported to Tarwin's Gap, and rippled the earth like lifting a bed sheet? When he killed the trolloc armies?

Ah yes.  So Rand is either an instinctual savant, or Lews took the wheel?

2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Forgetting what he did at the Eye of the World? Those weren't simple weaves.

They were not, but was he copying what the Forsaken tried to do to him?

11 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

I was always hoping that Fain was being built up as a literal vessel for the DO, that the DO needed a human form to truly enter the pattern.  

Not sure this applies to the topic - which I read as: what happened behind the scenes in the books that we want dragged to the forefront of the show.  I think your thought is asking for a change in the books.

I think most of us felt emotional at the end - to varying degrees.  You can always start over.  I find new things every time I read through.  If that is not for you, try the show - it is very different from the books.

I think most of us felt emotional at the end - to varying degrees.  You can always start over.  I find new things every time I read through.  If that is not for you, try the show - it is very different from the books.

44 minutes ago, AdamA said:

I still waver with the Harfoot storyline. On the one hand, I thought the relationship between Nori and the Stranger was more touching than any of the other ones shown so far, and they made a nice worldbuilding touch with a fairly interesting culture. On the other hand, what is supposed to be the point of this? It feels like a completely disconnected plot that has nothing to do with the forging of the rings or the eventual last alliance of elves and men this is supposed to be leading toward. The analogy to setting a subplot in Shara seems apt. That could be done well, but why? It's just including a different show in a show for no reason, or in this case, it feels like writing by focus group, that some marketing suits told them the appeal would be broader if it included hobbits and wizards. The time could have been spent actually developing the Southlanders. I don't think this was their intention, but to me, the most interesting characters so far are Sauron and the head Orc Adar. I get trying to gray things up a bit, but do you want people to be rooting for your villains? But if you make the Numenoreans and Southlanders all jackasses or bland, uninteresting archetypes, Galadriel a genocidal maniac, the other elves except Gil Galad idiots and Gil Galad is barely in the show, who else are we supposed to care about?

I figure that they were trying to build in why Gandalf was so fond of hobbits.  Thought they spent too much time on it, but that is what I came up with...

1 minute ago, SinisterDeath said:

Pent of up rage from having to deal with Cenn Buie.

That I would buy! 👍