I don't recall it ever coming up in the books.  Do you think she'd want to be told?  Would you?  Which character would have told her?

I think I'd want to know.  Even if it couldn't fix anything, I'd rather know than not.

16 hours ago, expat said:

Someone that thinks the training scenes are so critical to the story that leaving them out/postponing to season 2 is anathema, please explain their logic within the story.  We leave our intrepid heroes escaping from Terren Ferry with large numbers of Shadowspawn on their trail, although temporarily safe.  The Shadowspawn known the general direction that our heroes are traveling, so know where to look to try to pick-up the trail again.

 

In order for the training scenes to make sense, Moiraine and Lan must believe that they are totally safe and are traveling at a reasonably slow pace, camping with hours of daylight still available.  We know this because training requires time, light, and energy.  If they are trying to avoid capture/detection, our heroes have none of these three things because they are traveling as late into the night as is safe for the horses.  I'm not a weapon master, but I doubt that you do successful beginning training in the dark with exhausted pupils.

 

What is more logical, that Moiraine and Lan are so confident after escaping that they allow a leisurely journey or that they take steps to avoid their trail being picked-up by Shadowspawn that preclude weapon training?

 

This question may have a different answer in a TV series and in the books.  The TV series structure requires rising and falling tension within episodes while the books allow longer tension building.

 

 

 

 

Agree to some extent (TV and books are very different).  But if Lan had time for a slo-mo training sequence with Stepin while Logain's army and Shadow Spawn are out there - then they had time for a 15 to 30 second scene with Lan showing the boys some moves - even in the background while Moiraine was doing some world-building dialog.  It is not as if they were at a full gallop from the time they left Emond's field to when they got separated.  It never needed to be a full on 'this is how you hold a sword' lesson.  Just something to show that the backcountry boys are learning new skills.  Maybe not satisfying for all, but at least not out of nowhere.

2 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

There are very few things which I don't recall - that's what makes pedantry so much fun.  I just don't have the companion and do not bother with things not in the novels.

Alas, my mind is not the steel trap.  I will have to content myself with the joy of re-discovery on each read-through.

5 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

I do not recall seeing that - Anoura and Setel Annan were the principal burned out characters and I do not recall N attempting to heal either (I think Mistress Annan lost the ability due to an interaction with a ter'angreal so might be severed rather than burned out, I do not think it was defined).  

There are lots of things I don't recall - that's what makes reading the series fun again!!

Not saying the healing attempt happened or not, just that I don't recall...

8 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I have always wondered how much RJ was, if at all, influenced by the works of Stephen Hawking, a brief history of time came out in 88 and I imagine RJ may well have read that, and then gone on the read other multiverse theories which where gaining traction in the wider populace at the time. 

Nothing about that in the 'Origins' book.  Though the author was careful to state that he didn't know everything.

Sparhawk wrote and rewrote several letters to cover for his absence. He got carried away just as Mat did with the fiction he wrote for Hinderstap. 

2 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Wait, do you mean 2 people on the internet have come to a civilised resolution that they have opposing views. I feel should hurl unwarranted abuse at someone 😉 lol. 

I'm available...  🤬

13 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Sorry on this I will have to respectfully disagree, you can't emphasise the importance of the bond to non book readers as quickly as the TV show needs to do it in just a few lines. There are examples throughout movies and TV's where that is done and it gets lost in the noise. The bond is so important that I think it deserved a 10-15 minute long story to demonstrate how it works in the TV show, where I do agree is being unsure as to how well the Stepin bit came across (Lans bare chested screaming is one thing that grates). I also don't think it was explained clearly enough that Stepin killed himself directly because of the bond, at least one person I know thought he did it because he was depressed he had lost the Aes Sedai he was sworn to protect, but, that doesn't mean the concept of that story was not needed. 

 

I think a few lines done multiple times across episodes would have been adequate.  But agree to disagree works for me as well.  👍

On 11/20/2022 at 5:27 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

We had a needed exposition dump in the first 2 episodes, Morraine explains the history of mantheran. Studies have been done and proven that most viewers only take so much information in. And the Bond is far too important to be a throwaway line, so, you have Lan and Rand talking for maybe 5-10 mins about the bond, explaining the rules, clarifying, making sure they understand. Stepin was 14 mins of screen time, so you lose showing for telling and don’t really gain any more time to tell other stories. 

Just because a line is brief doesn't mean it is a throw away.  The bond is very important but it is only handled very briefly in the books early on.  It got more attention later and it all worked out fine - we understood the importance.

A brief line or two throughout the episodes and seasons would have been more than enough for the viewers (including non-readers) to pick up on.  That way when Moiraine/Lan, Egwene/Gawyn, Rand/Alanna are faced with breaking the bond, the audience will understand what is at stake - and the risks.

8 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Different scales of relevance to the story.

Correct.  There are a lot more darkfriends than there are Aes Sedai/Warder pairings.

1 minute ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean, maybe it was meant to inspire the rediscovery of Paracetamol 🙂. Halima's plan was to reinstate the idea of Big Pharma, and, a nefarious plan it was indeed 🙂 

It is a money-maker!!

40 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Having people talking about it is not the same as making the audience actually feel the threat of what happens when an Aes Sedai dies.  

Neither does having Dana talk about why she is a darkfriend, but there you go...

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

well, of course. that's the problem. he has 6 hours of total run time, and he has to fit in one book and parts of two other books. he could afford to put other scenes, but he has to prioritize.

just in the same way that you [assuming you to be an average guy] could buy a luxury car if you really wanted, but you have to prioritize other things with your limited money. 

 

I get it, you didn't like the stepin sequence, and anything else in your argument basically boils down to you not liking that sequence.

but a lot of people* did like that sequence, and we've seen a ton of training montages or swordfights in other fantasy televisions. so I think putting something that was unique for wot was better.

do not disparage the stepin scene. it carried a strong emotional impact while deliveling important worldbuilding elements that will be needed later in the plot. a training or fighting sequence may have looked cooler, but it would have accomplished neither.

 

* by "a lot" i mean that I liked it, my brother's girlfriend - who did not read the books - liked it, and my brother didn't like it, but he didn't like mostly nothing of the changes from the books and he didn't dislike that specific change more than the others. I don't have access to a larger sample

There were other scenes I didn't like other than Stepin.  The Stepin arc is just easy to pick out because it took up the most time.  So don't assume that my whole argument is based on Stepin because it isn't.

There were also scenes I liked that were new or off-screen in the books that I did like in the show - Logain!  *Other than the pathetic attack by the remnants of his army trying to rescue him*  I thought Logain's scenes were world-building and took a lot less time.  The warder bond did not warrant more time than the differences between saidar and saidin - not to mention the taint.

7 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

He said he wanted to put in those scenes but couldn't.  That's why they were cut. 

 

Why not?  He's the showrunner.

7 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Not because he prioritized Stepin or whatever.  They were cut after they were written, then were written as part of episode 2, and cut most likely for time, or perhaps because they weren't moving the story forward in focused enough fashion. 

 

He controls the time (based on parameters supplied by Amazon).  He also controls the story.  If scenes weren't focused enough send it back to the writers.

7 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

There was nowhere else after episode 2 that they were all together in order to put them back in.  It's very likely he didn't even have the choice about it being cut.

Because the story the writers created, at his direction, did not have them together.  Conscious choice.

7 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

It's easy to think it's all a zero sum game...that including this thing I don't like here is clearly what cut this thing I do like from this completely other place, but that's not how it works. 

 

 

In the end, Amazon sets the budget and time constraints.  If Rafe can't make the show he wants with the scenes he wants, that is all on him.

1 hour ago, ForsakenPotato said:

An example of a villain who, if even included, could be way better in the show than the books is Halima. She spends a lot of time hanging around Egwene (and therefor the reader) without any real character development, and her biggest impact on Egwene (and frankly myself) are headaches. That's not even touching some of the problematic gender stuff that has already been discussed on this forum.

Agreed.  Way too much time was spent on the nuisance headaches that in the end didn't amount to anything,

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

Mostly, yes.  I was just recording it.

So would the credit for those awards go to Amazon, Rafe, or both?

18 minutes ago, Skipp said:

While Lan taught the basics of Parry, block and strike to Perrin it does seem most of his skill comes down to his strength and wolfish instincts. 

Yes - strength/size matters.  Animal instincts don't hurt 😉

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

Except that's exactly why 'back seat screenwriting' doesn't work.

 

Let's say you want to stick close to the books, and you want to skip repeat beats, and you need every single episode of the season to have an A Plot with rising action, conflict, a climax, and falling action, and, ideally, a B and C plot for character development.  This structure isn't necessary in books...it does the same thing over the whole story...but is vital in television.

 

What conflict, rising action, climax, and falling action would you insert in a story that runs before Shadar Logoth?  You'd basically need to insert an entire episode there, What could you pull back?   That's not the best part of the story.

 

The A Plot of the Stepin episode is Egwene and Perrin against the Whitecloaks.  Stepin is a B plot.  Rand and Mat is the C Plot.  Ditching the Stepin part means ditching those other two plots as well...you can't move them before Shadar Logoth.

 

If you want to remove Stepin, which is fine, I guess...it /has/ to be a plot that can run simultaneously with Rand meeting Loial and the Rand/Mat stuff, and simultaneously with Perrin and Egwene vs. the Whitecloaks.  There is no time in that timeframe for Lan training Mat, Perrin, and Rand. 

I understand what you're saying - and I don't disagree that my statement was an oversimplification.

But my point is that if Rafe wishes he could have these scenes in - he could have - taking into account individual character and show arcs in their entirety.  And he could have done it way better than my amateur back-seat screenwriting.

Rafe didn't put in scenes he wanted because he prioritized other scenes.

11 minutes ago, Skipp said:

To be fair Stepin was in episodes 4 & 5, not a lot of room for Fades in there.  All 3 moments Rafe mentioned were clearly episode 2, maybe 1.  While I would have loved seeing Lan kill the fade that was following them or having a training scene with the boys the scene would need to be in an episode that made sense.

Right, I'm looking at the season as a whole - not on a per-episode basis.  Squeeze the 'wanted' scenes into episodes 1 and/or 2 and move what you lose into episodes 3, 4 or whatever - and Stepin just fades away...

On 11/15/2022 at 12:49 PM, Ralph said:

2. Scenes he most wishes they could have included in Ep2 - Lan killing the Fade, Moiraine's wall of fire, Lan training the boys. 

 

Could have had at least one and maybe more, but *cough* Stepin *cough*

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

I subscribed to the theory that Rand's immediate skill with the sword was bleed through from LTT.  Not always a popular theory as people like the Sword being something specific to Rand-Tam-Lan. But we know LTT was considered a blademaster so it makes sense to me that there was some bleed through.

Maybe so.  Rand already had decent strength from chores on the farm, had some inital training from a blademaster, and then had the knowledge of a blademaster in his head.  Don't know that you're right, but I could buy that.

7 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Wheel of Time won CLIO awards for: 
 

Bronze Award for Creative Content (Ogier Longing Origin Video)

Bronze Award for Outdoor Advertising (London Marquee)

 

Shortlist for Integrated Advertising Campaign

Short List for Main Title/Credits

Short List for Television/Series

Short List for Billboard

Short List for Single Video

 

 

Sorry for my ignorance, but I had to google CLIO awards.  Please correct me if I'm off-base here - these awards relate to how well a show is marketed - but can have little to nothing to do with how 'good' the actual show is?  This has more to do with how well Amazon promoted the show.

Right, wrong, close, far...?

Not I

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Hinderstap can defo go.

 

Cut Nynaeve and Elayne going to Tanchico and you can cut the whole Luca circus as well.

 

Cut fixing the weather and you can cut the whole sideshow in Ebou Dar with The Bowl of The Winds, Mat and Tylin (I'm going to have you for supper, duckling! 😮), The Kin.

 

Ofc you'll need to find something for these characters to do and work out how to bring Tuon in.

 

Cut the Andoran succession drama (which was dry as dust) and Elayne is short of a role altogether.

 

Remove tons of the Aes Sedai politicking and put Egwene outside the White Tower much sooner.  Work the Black Tower stuff in earlier.

 

My view after reading Lord of Chaos was that we were about ready for Tarmon Gai'don.  Take out Sammael and bring in the Seanchan in one season (7) rather than two books.

 

Wrap up Masema with minimal fuss, Faile can preside over The Two Rivers in Perrin's absence as a Lady would for her Lord, put Elayne on the Lion Throne and have Rand cleanse saidin in one season (8).

 

Have Rand's crisis, (Semirhage's ploy, Tam, Dragonmount), Egwene's rise to power (capture, the Seanchan attack on The Tower and Egwene becoming Amyrlin), Perrin getting the Whitecloaks in hand and Mat rescuing Moiriane as the set-up to TG in one season (9).

 

TG in one season (10).  Before your actors have white hair.

I could get with most if not all of this.  Devil is in the details though.  And keep in mind that Rafe is still in charge.  Will he cut a bunch of book stuff just so he can add additional unnecessary stuff?

14 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

It's a speech Jordan didn't find time to include in 14 books though.  

Right, because that would be telling instead of showing.

But you are correct, he didn't spend enough time fleshing out the 'bad' guys.  They could have been much more interesting had he showed  motivations other than grasping for power/immortality.  Just as he could have shown the darker side of the the 'good' guys - and I mean beyond them quarreling and making bad decisions.

Rafe had a chance to correct that, but whiff...