On 9/20/2023 at 3:47 PM, Windigo said:

Throughout the books the Black Ajah and other dark friends, often influenced by different Forsaken worked against each other. The entire organization of the BA where only a few know who is BA is set up to have conflicting missions. The Forsaken and all of the Shadow's groups are encouraged to compete and betray each other to win and be on top. One of the issues I have with the show having Ishy being more involved with the Seanchan is that it kind of defeats his I am the the favored chosen, and above the petty fighting and battles between the other forsaken, who are more interested in things like power and revenge.

I forgot to mention that in a lot of ways Ishamael being with the Seanchan is actually rather fitting as he is the reason they exist in the first place.

I remember there was a solid theory about Elayne's kids possibly being the Twins Shivan and Calian who are known for heralding in new Ages.

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Agreed about Lan. (Although I finally saw flashes of book Lan.)

 

But Mo doesn’t have to be stilled for it to be dramatic. She merely needs to believe she has been. Will be interesting if Mo recovers the OP only to have Siuan really be stilled. 

Have we all forgotten about Suian's cold open being extremely adapt at unravelling knots.

Is Moiraine stilled or just tied off? Hmmmmm.... 

Anyway, I enjoyed this episode, solid 8.5 for me, second only to the 9 I give episode 5.

The only weak episode for me this season was ep 2.

8 hours ago, Windigo said:

Throughout the books the Black Ajah and other dark friends, often influenced by different Forsaken worked against each other. The entire organization of the BA where only a few know who is BA is set up to have conflicting missions. The Forsaken and all of the Shadow's groups are encouraged to compete and betray each other to win and be on top. One of the issues I have with the show having Ishy being more involved with the Seanchan is that it kind of defeats his I am the the favored chosen, and above the petty fighting and battles between the other forsaken, who are more interested in things like power and revenge.

Oh for sure, I get that, it was definitely a thing in the books. In this particular case, it just feels like it's more than that or less of that depending on how you look at it. We'll see 😉

On another note, isn't it amazing what happens when you take a 2 dimensional villain like Liandrin in the books and humanise them. How much more you're willing to invest in that character.

Of course shout out to Fleetwood for absolutely killing it as well. 

15 hours ago, Mirefox said:

That was because he was cursed, though.  Mat in the books was not dark, was not a coward, did not come from a broken, alcoholic home, wasn’t a thief, wasn’t born to the Forsaken, wouldn’t leave his friends in their time of need, etc.  The blueprint for the character was right there in the books but the show is agenda-driven rather than fidelity-driven.  They had the means to follow the book Mat to the letter and still have their dark, edgy character thanks to the dagger.

To be fair, the leaving his friends thing was never their intended path with him, it was a forced situation with the actor.

The broken home thing is definitely new.

I don't know where you got the he wasn't a thief thing, he absolutely was. If anything went missing in the Two Rivers, Mat was immediately the first suspect and he freaking stole the Dagger in the first place lol

The born to a Forsaken thing is obviously unreliable narrator. Ishy thinks Mat is corrupted just like he thinks Perrin will succumb to the Wolf and we both know Perrin fights losing himself to the Wolf for the vast majority of the series. Just because he thinks Mat is corrupted, it doesn't make it true.

Mat talks like a coward all the time in the books...no way I'm getting involved in someone else's fight or saving the girls from trouble, not this guy, I'm going the opposite way mark my words, they can get out of it themselves...very next chapter there's Mat not only fighting to save someone's life, he's leading the charge.

The reality is the only real changes are his harder home life and the out of the writers hands leaving his friends bit.

Anything else is like trying to get water from a stone and more about being a hater than a critic.

23 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

The WOT writers again subverting expectations to give viewers a bit of a twist moment. That is what makes for good TV. 

Let's also remember, Mat was pretty much an unlikable dick for the first 2 books lol

The show not featuring that much of him for the first 2 seasons isn't exactly a stretch from the books.

On 9/16/2023 at 3:10 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

And, just to see if I can get it straight in my head, the drop to 8 Forsaken makes it easier to create personal animus for our heroes, but we're missing some. Let's see:

Rand - Ishamael (Champions of Light and Dark)

Moiraine - Lanfear (a slit throat will do that)

Nynaeve - Moghedien (every good housewife hates spiders)

Egwene - Graendal (Servant of all versus slave master)

Lan - Demandred (it has to happen, doesn't it?)

Elayne - Rahvin (putting Rahvin behind the Camelyn Civil War)

Mat - Semirhage ( if she's Voice for Tuon and in charge of the Gray Man, there you go)

Perrin - Sammael  (this is the weakest link, but tie Sammael to the Whitecloaks, and it all fits)

 

Nice neat, personal 1 on 1's between our heroes and the Forsaken. And the only ones that don't directly fit the books are Elayne and Perrin's.  4 men and 4 women on both sides, and all of the heroes of the light become more or less equal in their accomplishments

Semirhage is out, now that we know for sure we have Graendal and Moggy, there was no other clearly female figurine in s1e5, Ishy has already replaced her as Suroth's Truth Speaker, Lanfear is already taking on her cruelty and colour choices.

We now have 6 of the 8 figurines identified

Ishy

Lanfear

Moggy (named and there was a figuring with spiderweb designs on dress)

Graeny (named and the figurine with clearly big boobs leaves no doubt lol)

Asmodean (Figurine with a string instrument) 

Sammy (Short figurine with a scarred face)

7th is clearly male

The last one is the fuzziest and hardest to make out, could be male or female but it's most likely male due to Lanfear's conversation with Ishy. It seems pretty clear she named the females and then grouped all the remaining as the boys.

My money for #7 is of course Demandred

#8 is a lot tougher to guess and probably easier to guess who it isn't, it's probably not Bath which leaves Be'lal, Aggy or Rahvin.

17 hours ago, Owayn The Traveller said:

Was doing a bit of research on folklore around hangings and found this:

 

‘Even the rope made its way into the hands of souvenir hunters. Tied around the head, the hangman's
rope could cure headaches. It also acted as a good luck charm, particularly for those who played
cards.’

 

Robert Jordan really knew his folklore and created and a densely layered world. 

Good quote lol but like how Rand's mythos is clearly King Arthur, Mat's mythos is clearly Odin, RJ didn't even try and disguise it.

Spear, losing an eye, being hung, right down to Odin's Ravens Munin and Hugin (translated to english, Memory and Thought).

5 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I really hope they don't do this.  We already had a Rand flashback that served as a reveal near the end of last season.  If they try to do it again at the end of this season to say that he's secretly become a swordmaster off screen, that is the epitome of lazy writing and it repetitive storytelling to boot.

I think either it will be Lan fighting HLT not Rand or Rand will win through channeling.

If you watched the little teaser for next week, you know why I'm saying it might be Lan instead.

6 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

So episode 5 for me pretty much confirms that Verin is Black Ajah, she is very good at encouraging others to help discover what has gone on, while not specifically mentioning or saying anything herself. We know that one of the 3 black oaths is 

I shall hold close the secrets of the Black Ajah, unto the hour of my death.

Verin at no point said the black exist, in the same way an aes sedai gets around the oath to always tell the truth so she got round that oath by laying a trail of breadcrumbs subtle enough that someone else could say those words and start investigating. Brilliantly written and for non book readers I am looking forward to them working their way back. I do think we will get a definitive reveal about Verin being black sooner then we do in the books and the fakeout will be the writers convincing the viewer that she has been working against the light in some nefarious plot, or trying to just get herself up the hirearchy in the black, and is evil al along, before the big switch reveal at the end. Although they need to walk the tightrope of making her sympathetic enough that people care that she dies (which goes against my earlier thinking that she needed to be seen doing evil things). 

The other suggestion is that this is in fact the investigation that leads to her being forced to become black ajah and the writers use that to show the viewer what you must go through to join the black, but I really hope that is not the case. 

The other thing that occurred to me if I'm wrong about Verin and Liandrin is the possibility that what happened to Verin in the past didn't and it instead plays out now during the show. Her current investigations leads her down that path.

It just doesn't make sense to me that Verin is bringing all this heat down on Liandrin if they're playing for the same side and Liandrin was acting on Ishy's orders.

Know what i mean?

It wasn't random imo.

First off, let me premise this with my belief that Mat is Aemon reborn.

That said, I believe the Taint from SL opened Mat up to memories, personality traits and even fighting reflexes from a past life. In this case Aemon.

During the healing he was spouting off in the Old Tongue and the first thing that happens when he wakes is his reliving the last battle of the fall of Manetheren through the eyes of who can only be Aemon.

He is now 100% fluent in the Old Tongue as evidenced by his trip through the Doorway in Tear.

His luck to me was simply just him being free of the SL taint and the first of the 3 to actually accept and actively try to benefit from being Ta'veren.

Rand and Perrin by contrast fight against being Ta'veren most of the time until later on where both of them at different times eventually use it to actively direct events around them just like Mat.

Pretty sure Verin is not Black in the show and will be taking the Cadsuane role.

I also believe Liandrin will be taking over Verin's "background".

When I originally heard that Shohreh Aghdashloo was being cast, I thought for sure she would be Cadsuane but now it's being said that she will actually play Elaida. So unless they're screwing with us, I 100% see the Verin/Cads/Lian switcharoo.

When Liandrin frees Nyn as she was leaving sealed it for me as this was very akin to Verin's extra help she gave Egwene to hunt the Black Sisters in the books.

I'm now convinced that Verin is taking the Cadsuane role and Liandrin will take over Verin's "Background". Honestly, I'm good with this as both Fleetwood and Syal are absolutely killing it as Liandrin and Verin respectively. Previous to the news this last week and this episode I wouldn't have leaned this way so heavily as I thought for sure the casting of Shohreh Aghdashloo meant her as Cadsuane but now, unless they're screwing with us, it looks like she is actually going to play Elaida, I'm 100% seeing these changes. Liandrin releasing Nyneave as she was leaving is very akin for me to Verin's extra help she gave Egwene to hunt the Black sisters in the books.

On 1/9/2022 at 2:24 AM, Zax said:

I think it means that he dies when the snakes hang him. 'To die and live again' VooDooNut explains it well. 

He didn't die when the snakes hung him though.

He died (breaking his link with the Horn) to Rahvin's lightnings at the end of tFoH, then returned to the living when Rand reversed everything by Balefiring the living crap outa Rahvin

15 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

As long as I’m asking questions…did we need the sea folk?

Aside from logistical support for Rand's armies and food delivery, they were mostly tied to the Bowl of the Winds stopping the world from burning up the first time and then negating the raging weather around SG during the Last Battle.

My personal small pet theory was that Androl had actually been channeling for a long time and was well over a century old.

He is so weak in the power that the madness took a long time to affect him.

It would've explained his multiple artisan masteries and his extensive travels.

On 12/31/2021 at 5:36 PM, Rogue One said:

 

1) We know the Bore is drilled in the AOL and sealed by Rand in AMOL. Do we then know the DO is active in the world only between these two events (and subsequent turnings), or whether the DO also gets freed / is active in eg the fifth age? i guess if the former it would make Tarmon Gai’don actually the LAST battle against the DO (though of course no beginnings or endings etc) 

 

 

 

 

 

RJ said the DO is not active in all Ages but didn't specify if the 3rd and 4th Ages are the only ones.

He also said that Channeling is not a thing in all Ages. Not that people can't Channel, it's that they can't sense or access the One Power.

I have always theorized that the world is basically one giant Ogier Stedding in such an Age or Ages. 

On 12/20/2021 at 2:57 AM, Kalessin said:

I've always taken "and live once more a part of what was!" to refer to his setting up (purely accidentally of course: we know Mat) the Band of the Red Hand, as an elite military formation. After all, it was Manetheren's elite military formation at the time of the Trolloc Wars, and he's replicated it near enough perfectly.

Yeah, the Band of the Red Hand seems to be answer here and this is actually the key line in the theory that Mat is actually Aemon reborn and not just a blood descendent.

2 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

  I have to respectfully disagree.  I can't see where you get this certainty.  There are a number of hero's who are in the book text bound to the wheel to be reborn as the wheel wills.  Unless they are summoned by the horn between reincarnations they do not remember their previous lives when spun out. This included LTT.  Rand doesn't remember a thing until the taint starts a past life memory or multiple personality disorder.   In an exposition by Brigitte to Elayne she says the hero's do not die as others do.   Now the real metaphysical question is whether if you die and your energy is dispersed into the cosmos but that energy is recycled but without personality or memory is it reincarnation.  It is cannon that you don't go to Tel' aran'rhiod unless you are a hero.  Therefore you don't exist.  Now where you are probably coming from is when, say the third age, comes again the pattern weaves out something similar to the last third age.  

 

There is someone spun out that had your role in the last third age.  But that person has no memory or continuity with the previous soul.  It is like saying everybody with the role of Hamlet has been reincarnated.  If you have specific evidence to the contrary please cite it. 

 

Sorry, I'm confused as to what specifically you are arguing against.

We know for a fact souls are specific and reborn all the time.

The broadest example is channelers in general. RJ told us channeling and channeling strength is tied to the soul and that a soul that can channel. in any Age where channeling is present, will always be able to channel and will always be the same power level every time that soul is spun out.

And once again, Rand is not the only one with memories from a past life in the books.

On 12/17/2021 at 1:33 PM, qlorin said:

Maybe multible of them... Latra to Eldrene to  Deane Aryman to Egwene....

 

I am pretty sure Elan Morin bound with Dragon...

This is not beacuse they know his soul because they know his timeline... They have different kind of understanding of time... They know future events for example... Moraine explains it best after they got out from the archway... But yeah he can be Aemon...

It's the line right before that that implies something more though..."to once more be a part of something that once was".

If they're not talking about the Band of the Red Hand there, I don't know what else it could be with that specific wording.

Without a doubt for me...The Gholam!

Followed by the Snakes and Foxes.

8 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Aside from the fact they won't be facing the DO at the eye,  It will be Ishammael.

Absolutely and they're going to the Eye because Ishy wants them there, same as the books.

Only this time he planted the lure in Su's head through her dreams instead of manipulating Jain Farstrider into delivering it.

That's my take at least.

Wow I'm late to this thread.

Anywho...the reason so much of the books had to be re-written for TV is extremely simple and it's certainly not because RJ was a bad writer or the books were written badly.

The books are PoV/internal thought based that delivers the vast majority of its information that way.

Now you're in a visual medium and you need a different delivery system for that information.

Think about it for a second. Entire pages of description from the books might take all of a few seconds to convey on screen. Entire pages of internal thoughts have to be boiled down to an actor's body language, facial reactions and focused camera work that once again takes place in mere seconds.

Dialogue on the other hand...a mere paragraph of dialogue in the books can take 20-30 seconds to get out naturally on screen.

3 hours ago, Katherine said:

This Show. 

 

 

I swear I keep getting so excited and then the episode comes and feel deflated. 

 

This teaser has me excited again! MIN!!!!!!  And holy cow I can't wait to see Tigriane (sp?) fight. Really hope those scenes are choregraphed in a way that shows how UNBELIEVABLY badass the aiel are. 

 

Come on Rafe...... you've treated my heart and nerves so poorly up until now........ 

 

Treat it well. Please!

Highly trained fighter and stunt double as Tigraine Mantear

Magdalena Sittova

The real question here is did you notice a certain whistler stepping out onto the stone platform of the Waygate?

No one noticing the rather large belly on that Aiel woman fighting???