A scene I was hoping for but didn't have high hopes was for HotH Hawkwing to speak to Tuon and reveal how they were manipulated/corrupted by Ishy.

 

Seeing as books are pretty subjective, saying that 'I didn't have a problem with the pace' is just fine.

 

And I already gave you an argument that you did not reply to. In short: The pacing in the last three books was nothing compared with the pace of the earlier books. It was MUCH faster. What you said was 'there are places in the story that will naturally slow down. So what? It doesn't change that the last three had a much faster pace. Much more happened in the last three than in the previous five books combined. 

Subjective or not, "I didn't have a problem with it" just shuts down discussion. If people don't offer some basis for their opinions, what the hell do we talk about? Why didn't you have a problem with it? Other people did have a problem - is that not a valid stance?

 

Also, I did offer an argument - pointing out that the pace was slow at the point where you would expect the pace to be slowest (the middle), and that there were still significant pacing issues when you would expect the pace to be fastest (the end) is a response. Saying "more happened" is meaningless - more was able to happen because the previous books spent a lot of time setting everything up, but because the set up was already done, the pacing issues in the last books are less excusable.

 

Pacing was a problem compared to what though? RJ's pace over the majority of the previous 4-5 books? Don't make me laugh.

 

I don't think that the split of AMOL was 'artificial'.

Except the decision came from Tor, not from the author and not based on what would have been best for the story heck even Brandon has called the timeline and structural issues a "casualty" of the split. He wanted to release one book split into two volumes.

 

It's been discussed a number of times before but just a few of the issues that came from this were detailed here.

 

The way Brandon split the material totally undermined what RJ had in mind, with the four main stories becoming dark and bugged down together, piling up to great effect on the reader, the Shadow advancing and the Light totally stuck, in the ropes. Perrin's story and Mat's story, told after the reader knew the "knot" was split open by Rand's epiphany lost much interest and purpose. The whole thing read as "they're making time before Merrilor". That Moiraine might be needed in relation to Rand's darkness stopped working as the red herring it was intended to be (to hide the fact Mat's not coming to Merrilor either, possibly). Aviendha's vision stopped making much sense... Having the epiphany happen in TGS was bad enough (ideally the book wouldn't have been split, but the next best thing to stay closer to the intended dramatic effect was to end it on the Seanchan attack and Rand vanishing from Tear...) , but Brandon made it worse by opening TOM with the announcement of Merrilor and in a month. Again that was done to match the timelines Brandon had desynchronized, and to leave room for pretty useless (and even detrimental) Egwene episodes.

 

RJ's midbook, prior to Merrilor was to pack one hell of a punch. The built up frustration lead to an explosion...The Shadow invaded the Borderlands, Rand vanished after nearly killing his father...Egwene, just released, paid for Rand's failure at Falme and got attacked by the Seanchan, Perrin was about to face a stupid trial and wouldn't be there for Rand (another red herring, but foreshadowed), Mat destroyed the gholam and left for Ghenji, the expedition made bleaker by Birgitte's last minute revelation she found no way out and died in there. Egwene reunited the Tower, destroyed the BA but Mesaana remained and would strike soon.Then the avalanche... Mat in Ghenji, Elayne rising to the Sun Throne, Rand's epiphany, Egwene defeating Mesaana, Perrin witnessing Rand and forging his Hammer, fought to save Galad and his Asha'man able to channel again left for Andor.

 

A few chapters earlier, we were heading for a wall, the Light finished as the LB started, and suddenly we landed in a wholly different book. Time had run out, Rand was fully aware of the Light's weakeness and determined to put an end to dithering. He left himself but a few days to fix what urgently needed fixing... starting by a visit to Egwene, then the Bordermen, a brief visit to AD...

 

But painted in his corner, Brandon needed Rand to give Egwene a whole month to do what she had the resources to do in a week. A mere week before he broke the seals. The month is another thing that ended up diluting the little that was left of the feeling of urgency and the drama. Rand feels pulled to the break the seals and move for SG and yet he goes and gives Egwene a month before Merrilor. That's a month of useless side events with Bloodknives and scenes that suddenly turned a side player RJ used sparingly into a main player (Gawyn, of course), a month of Tuon doing nothing, a month of Rand doing not much.

 

 

Maybe but it was also appalling how many PoV's and pages it took to get from Book 7 to Book 11 as well.

Maybe it happened for different reasons but BS was far from the first author of this this series to run into bloating issues.

Indeed but I'm not sure why there is a need to bring up this false equivalence, which is why I specified in "climax" of the story. Personally I think RJ's slow down gamble failed and we have seen any number of talented authors(GRRM) get tripped up by that portion of a long series. Regardless the two are separate issues which is why it always comes across as somewhat baffling that you feel the need to fly in with the 'but RJ' angle every time it's brought up. Start a separate thread if you wish to discuss it.

 

Because you apparently feel the need to bash BS at every turn (with Dom's words, not even your own) over something he only had limited control over, took 3 books to do what should have maybe been done in 2 very large books.

Meanwhile, RJ took 5 books to tell what should have taken 2 large books while having full control.  

 

nor do I remember any bloat that contrasted at all with the earlier books that were written by RJ. 

 

The key to this is where we are in the story arc. Granted the artifical split of AMoL without near enough material to fill it out accentuated the issue, but at the climax of the story things like Dom details below should not be happening:

 

It's appalling how many POVs and pages Brandon has needed to write that story. Typically, we might have gotten one Gawyn shortish POV in Dorlan (typically prologue stuff) where he learned Egwene's captive, and he is thorn, and then nothing until suddenly he interrupted a Siuan/Bryne scene with a sudden arrival, his growing frustration mentioned only via observations of Siuan from then on (we didn't need a Lelaine scene making completely irrelevant and stupid inquiries about orchards in Andor (!) we just needed a reference by Siuan that Lelaine was manipulating Gawyn, until as a last resort Siuan went to him for the rescue. For the rest, we needed one confrontation with Egwene, and one conversation with Elayne or Bryne or Siuan, not three scenes of the same whining and self-pity, with each of them in turn...

 

 

Maybe but it was also appalling how many PoV's and pages it took to get from Book 7 to Book 11 as well.

Maybe it happened for different reasons but BS was far from the first author of this this series to run into bloating issues.

@Rose, In the glossary in TOM it states under Graendal:  A ruthless killer; she as responsible for the deaths of Asan'gar, Asmodean, and for the destruction of Mesaana. 

Before you even get to the glossary it is revealed in the Epilogue by Shaidar Haran. He holds her directly responsible in the deaths of 3 Chosen including Mesaana. We know one of the others was Aran'gar and by process of elimination we are left with Asmodean as the 3rd.

Dead Forsaken are:

Aginor/Osan'gar

Be'lal

Rahvin

Semirhage

Sammael

Balthamel/Aran'gar

Mesaana

Asmodean

I have all the audio books on my ipod and listen to them all the time.

They use the pronunciations as outlined by RJ/Team Jordan.

A couple that stood out to me that I was completely wrong about were Semirhage, Taim, Cairhien, Gawyn and Siuan

Semirhage, I used to say Semir-hage, it's Semir-hog

Taim, I said Tame, it's TA-eem.

Cairhien, used to say Car-hane, it's Car-re-en

Gawyn, used to say Gwane, supposed to be Gow-when

Siuan, used to say Sue-ann, it's Sswan

The epilogue isn't entirely RJ, and BS quotes about Nakomi imply she's his invention (in this thread) as opposed to something RJ wrote into the end then BS used in ToM.

Not his invention, she is his interpretation of something RJ buried deep in the notes.

There is a difference. 

Definitely a good choice for someone for BS to expand on. All we had heard previously was about some guy that had a somewhat undefined Talent for Travelling. That he apparently didn't need to know a place to Travel from it.

All I do know is that Siuan's death was well conceived and tied in perfectly dating back to her conversation with Mat in tDR-20.

 

Other souls can be Champion of the Light, it's just that when the Dragon's around, it's him. As well as there also being a Dragoness type soul or the possibility of one or something.

 It's always been my understanding that the CoL is the Dragon Soul and RJ specficially said he didn't intend to explore a female dragon. There are other heroes of course but Rand's soul is the CoL.

 

 

>>Robert Jordan

It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

Aan'allein

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

Robert Jordan

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

 

Do you have a quote that says otherwise?

 

One other thing to consider here is we know Rand's soul has gone over to the DO in the past. It would be interesting to hear what would happen in that situation.

 

Asked and answered 10 years ago..

ROBERT JORDAN

Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

Am I the only one who thinks that Nakomi was just a bone thrown to fandom to keep speculation alive? In other words, I couldn't give two douchenozzles who she was.

Nakomi is based on something BS found deep in RJ's notes.

My understanding is that it was Moridin that came for Lanfear/Cyndane; and that he killed her.  As far as I recall, the books do not specify where she died; there might be a chance that her death being in the main world.

Your understanding is correct, it was Moridin. We have no idea who actually killed her nor where exactly she died.

I posted this on Mats Arc thread as well but didnt get much feedback.

 

With respect to the Hinderstrap group that came to defend and retake the damming of the river, there were 100 redarms with the townspeople along with Delarn who Mat had saved when they first went into Hinderstrap.  When Mat originally went to Hinderstrap, he only went with a handful of redarms (including Delarn) and the aeis sedai.  Does this mean that he sent the 100 that is now with the townspeople on a suicide mission to initially get the town onboard?

Yes. It was stated by Mat in the scene where he mentions Delarn, that it was a volunteer mission and Mat was disappointed that Delarn was one of them because he saved him from that fate in the first place. A fate Delarn himself felt was his destiny.

Rand's channeling at the end of TGS was surely powerful enough to be felt across the world by any male channeler, since he says he's holding more of the Power than even when he cleansed saidin.  Why didn't anyone onscreen in ToM take note of it?  Or did I just miss when it happened?  (I'm still rereading ToM right now.)

He's not holding THAT much power, not even close. He level an entire city with the amount he used at SL, not just a single mansion.

I have a question. We know that it was late, late in the series (between TGS and TOM, I think) when the Seanchan discovered Travelling. ... My question is:

 

When did the Forsaken re-discover Travelling in the series?

 

I always found the scene early in TSR (or late in TDR) where Moiraine assures Rand that Sammael could not get to Tear from Illian. I was always like: Huh?? ...Open a gateway, Skim...TRAVEL, lol.

 

Was this an RJ error, a Moiraine error or MY error not understanding when the ability to Travel was revealed in the series and its limitations?

 

 

Fish

tSR-3

A bad assumption on Mo's part most likely.

 

Well I am in the camp that sort of do think a full circle can shield just about anyone but allow me to play a bit of Devil's advocate here. There is also that time when Rand hold just a little more Power than he should and then think not even a full circle can shield him. This quote from Egwene and the earlier one from Rand could just be them both being wrong and respectively overestimating and under estimating the danger. Real life research have shown that generally (and off course there is individual differences) women tend to overestimate how dangerous something is and men underestimating it, this can be exactly the same that Egwene over estimates the chances a full circle have to shield her in that situation and and underestimates a full circle's chances to shield him and that the truth might be a little closer to the middle for both of them.

Which is exactly what my point has been the whole time ;)

We simply don't know for sure either way.

I think you've got it backwards, Finnssss.

He could see the flow from him into Nynaeve.

So it's going into her, she isn't controlling what Rand does with it. And that's without active channelling, mind you. I can't imagine it would stop, if she actually did something with it.

 

Even though Merise was controlling the flows, the vileness of saidin turned Elza's stomach. It was a midden heap rotting in a sweltering summer. The other Green was a lovely woman in spite of her sternness, but her mouth thinned as if she, too, were struggling not to vomit.

[...]

She expected to have to plead, but the taller woman hesitated only a moment before nodding and passing control to her. Almost immediately Merise's mouth softened

So saidin is vile to Elza, and by the latter part she isn't speaking of its strangeness to females. The description is clear, it's the Taint she's feeling. Now, this is simply because she's part of the Circle, so she isn't channelling it, but what's important here is the distinction she makes. Merise's control of the flows is significant to the extent to which Elza ought to be affected by the Taint. What's more, Merise calms down a bit after passing on control of the Circle. This strongly implies that the one melding the flows is affected by the Taint.

 

Daigian was leading the circle—because of him, he thought—but she was drawing so lightly that he felt barely a whisper of saidin passing through him. She would not want to face that until she had to.

Suggestive, if not definitive.

 

"She's holding saidin!" he shouted, and threw himself at her as he felt Daigian draw deeply on the Power.

The wording is very peculiar unless Daigian was actively channelling. She drew on it, not 'used more' or 'made him draw deeper'.

 

Damer and Jahar both said the same thing, the taint was gone, but how could they be sure some scrap did not remain? Merise had allowed her to link with the boy, and she could not feel anything like what the other Green had described, yet how could they be certain? Saidin was so alien that anything could be hidden in that mad chaos.

Cadsuane didn't find what she was looking for, but Cadsuane has never felt it herself. Merise, who has, did describe something which was no longer there.

 

I get all that but what I'm saying is that the men can actually FEEL the taint seeping into their bones when they channel saidin.

No woman ever mentioned that happening.

The men know it's clean now because nothing is seeping into them now. The women never had that happening previously so they really don't see much of a difference.

All they could do before was sense the taint. If it was seeping into them, they would have felt it just like the men did. They didn't and wouldn't have continued to link with the men if they did.

Just the fact that the women can't really tell the difference is the proof in itself that the taint wasn't seeping into them previously.

Oh and not to beat a dead horse on a previous debate or anything but...

tGS-41

Shield after shield came to sever her from the source, but they were like the hands of children trying to stem the roaring flow of a waterfall. With this much power, she could not be stopped save a full circle, and the Seanchan didn't use circles; the a'dam prevented it.

This is Egwene in a full circle while using the most powerful sa'angreal the tower has, believing that she could be shielded by a full circle.

Jus sayin ;)

In a mixed circle, I guess the leading channeler could choose which half is channeled.

Semirhage's use of the male adam seems to be an indicator of that.

 

Most channelers seem to channel just their own half when linking.  I guess that would have been so pre-Cleansing.

Yes and no. In every description we have seen, the opposite half is used to strengthen and reinforce their own half. The women of the circle only actually channel saidar and the men only actually channel saidin. The leader of the circle controls all though.

And look, Nynaeve wasn't the only only one linked that day either or even previous to that day. There were 3 other mixed circles, one of which was using Callandor and not one of the women leading those circles mentions being affected by the taint.

With the way men always describe it, it would have been something the women would not only have mentioned but would not have participated in a circle if they had. Most of those women had linked previously as well.

There is simply no way that any of those women would have continued to link if they felt even the slightest amount of the taint was affecting them.

I always think of it like Nuclear power. Standing in the heart of the reactor is obviously going to produce high levels of radiation but the electricity it creates, that we all use, is not carrying that radiation with it.

A simplified way of looking at it for sure but also a valid one IMO.

Even in the descriptions by women after the cleansing, they have trouble seeing much difference because it didn't affect them in the first place.

Cot-23 is a good chapter to read about it.

The woman leading the circle is not actually channeling saidin though, the man is still channeling it, the woman is just controlling the flows.

I'm not really convinced a woman melding the flow would have solved the problem because taint affects a woman in a circle too. Maybe Cadsuane was simply wrong. It happened before. Anyway it shouldn't matter now that saidin is clean.

 

I have been wondering about that, what happens if a woman go around and links with a man all the time, let us say we have a pair of wilder siblings who do it by instinct, will she then go insane as well as him eventually?

Not quite sure where the idea of men and women linking, prior to the cleansing, would lead to the women also going mad.

I might be wrong but I don't recall ever hearing of the like other than from modern AS's who think or believe this but don't actually have a clue if it's actually true or not.

Women in the AoL stopped linking with men because they were going insane not because they thought they would also go insane.

Think about this...if it were actually true, then Nynaeve would have been exposed to it in massive quantities when her and Rand linked to cleanse saidin and there has been absolutely no indication at all of this happening.

Also not sure where the idea of the women using the Domination Band were subjected to the taint either.

The danger of the Band for the women was that the man would eventually excert some control back through them onto the women.

Again, I could be wrong but I don't think I am.

How does Moridin enter the tower of Ghenjei?

We don't know for sure but considering that Mat finds the way back to the Doorway in Tear destroyed, that definitely makes a case for that being Moridin's entry and exit.

Can an OP channeler weave flows of air to push/throw mat back?  ie: create a gale wind, etc., or is that gale wind considered to be weaves of the one power, and so would not affect him?

As long as you didn't need weaves to hold the wind together, sure.

Doubt you would be able to focus it solely on Mat without those weaves holding it together though.

A strong Seafolk Windfinder could most likely produce a gale in Mat's general area for example. That would be over a pretty large area though.

is there a verified map that shows the whole world in relation to each other?  its hard for me to visualize where Shara and Seanchan are in relationship to the main continent.

And if a man, no matter how powerfull he is, can be shielded by even 13 of the weakest women. It seems to imply that a man's strength in the power, amplified or not, does not matter.

 

Like I said, we can go back and forth on this all day and neither of us can prove or disprove the other.

There's simply just not any hard evidence one way or the other.

I disagree; there is evidence. For one, we know that you have to be considerably stronger than someone in order to Shield them, while they're embracing the Source. For another, a circle of 13 AS is considerably stronger than any man is unaided, therefore it can overwhelm them. Nothing inconsistent about that, and no need to suggest any other mechanism that kicks-in at 13 (so I'm pulling the Occam card, I guess).

 

Also, Rand makes a point of mentioning that he's only holding a little more because he expects trouble from damane, who cannot Link. He postulated that he might also be strong enough like that to resist a full circle, but that doesn't concern him at the time. It's more than suggestive that holding more would make that speculation a sure thing, otherwise the possibility wouldn't exist to begin with.

 

Finally, it's not true that 13 of the weakest female channelers can overwhelm any man. I said 13 AS, just as Asmodean did:

Thirteen women who can barely channel could overpower most men, linked. The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you or any man, and barely breathe hard.

Which further proves my point (i.e., if 13 Morgases can't take Rand without an angreal, then there's nothing magical about the number at all).

Nope, sorry, agree to disagree.

There is no conclusive evidence either way and for every instance where you quote Rand guessing that he might be able to do this or do that, I could LTT rambling the opposite or even one of the female Forsaken needling one of the male forsaken about what even 13 untrained women would mean to them.

AGAIN, we are both just guessing here man and neither of us can offer definitive proof.

The Red's in LoC were able to shield him despite him having the Fat Man angreal.

He wasn't holding saidin. That makes all the difference.

Rand is guessing about resisting a full circle, it's not definitive by any stretch and going by various LTT ramblings previously, 13 women is something to be feared no matter what.

And if a man, no matter how powerfull he is, can be shielded by even 13 of the weakest women. It seems to imply that a man's strength in the power, amplified or not, does not matter.

Like I said, we can go back and forth on this all day and neither of us can prove or disprove the other.

There's simply just not any hard evidence one way or the other.