2 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Except he didn't.

 

Every scene this season that has taken place in Tela'ran'rhiod has been consistently and explicitly labeled as such in the X-Ray.

 

Your belief that certain scenes took place in TAR doesn't mean that they actually did.

Your belief that certain scenes didn't take place in TAR doesn't mean they didn't.

You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want.

Only time will tell whose belief was correct.

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

You're wrong here.

 

I went to the X-Ray, and everything that happens with Mat after he drinks the tea is listed as occurring in Falme; were it occurring in Tela'ran'rhiod, it would've been labeled as such.

The X-ray cheat doesn't always work. In ep-3 it's pretty clear Ishamael visited with Perrin in the wagon in TAR and it didn't say TAR then either. 

Nor did it tell you Nyneave was still inside the Arches the 3rd trip of her testing.

There were other instances last season of purposefully not giving something away in the X-ray.

Only when it actually gives you some extra knowledge does it matter. You can't infer anything from it when it doesn't.

54 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

I like this idea.  The scene where Ishy was holding Matt was really good, but it sure seems like the vision was more of Ishamael's vision than Matt's.

I have a feeling Mat blowing the Horn will be what they use to trigger his memories/past lives stuff.

12 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

5) Was Bayle Domon just a cameo? 
6) There still was no training - so if, all of the sudden, next episode Rand kicks butt, it makes no sense … he should handily lose to both Turok and Isha’mael if we’re following the shows narrative. 

 

Unless the ep8 cold open is LTT giving Sammael his scar while sparring in the AoL and we start getting some early LTT memories/voice.

Or Lan steps in.

Pretty sure Bayle is the trusted ship captain Ryma mentioned in ep6

Either way, the only thing that really didn't sit right for me was Lan figuring out the tied off weave stuff.

14 minutes ago, Rhaze said:

 He does look close to how I have Sammael pictured.

Hey never know, maybe the e8 cold open is in the AoL with LTT and Sammael sparring giving him his scar

I highly doubt that Tea did anything other than put Mat to sleep. Everything after was Ishamael's doing in TAR.

One big con on Mat to set up yet another arrow aimed at breaking Rand.

Everything Ishy has done this season is to throw as many angles of pain and torment at Rand through his friends.

Just like everything Ishy did in season 1 was to manipulate Rand into breaking his Seal and fully setting him free.

Ah well, can;t win em all. Sounded cool

On another note if you have been watching the preview trailers and following the casting leaks does anyone else think it's possibly Sammael lighting up the Foregate? 

There was only 2 actors without confirmed roles left for this season. One as a certain blind Sister has now been revealed for tonight but the other...

Adrian Bouchet

At first I thought maybe for Hawkwing but after seeing someone walking down the Foregate blowing everything up I started think wait a minute...with his blonde hair and build you just add a scar across his face and he could absolutely be Sammael.

Yeah I know, it's a shot in the dark but that would be pretty damned cool.

3 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I have long felt that book 3 was where RJ actually started writing the story he really wanted to. I also feel that when he realized after book 2 that this would be a much long series he decided to change certain characters probably to make them more fun to write and so this fed into there stories. 
 

Moiraine becomes a lot less the all knowing all powerful Gandalf character, Lan changes from that Aragorn copy to someone softer, Matt, well RJ had a blank slate with him so could do what he wanted. Rand suddenly becomes the confident hero type, almost overnight, in tear reading everything and getting his own opinions (I think done in part to allow Moiraine to have a lesser role),  

 

You can go through each of the main characters and see how RJ very cleverly in most cases allows himself scope to write them out of the path he has started them on thematically. It shows the problems for a writer in not fully mapping out an entire story from the start, but also how a writer can then get himself out of that situation and create conditions that allow them to shift the character personalities and motivations slightly, 

RJ was a huge Tolkien fanboy and had tried unsuccessfully to be approved to write under the LotR license. RJ was more known for writing Horror/Mystery and Conan the Barbarian at that point. Should be very clear how his Horror/Mystery writing background served him quite well throughout this series.

Originally books 1-3 were 1 book and he paid a lot of homage in it to Tolkien. It's a good bet that some of it was written with the intention of being in a LotR setting.

When the LotR bid was unsuccessful he began shopping it around and that's when TOR came into the picture but they wanted him to break the book into 3 separate novels as well as a some other changes like the cutting of the 4th ta'veren boy Wil al'Seen (I'm pretty sure it was Wil, I may have to doublecheck that as well as whether it was TOR or Harriet that got him to break it into 3 books). *See edit below*

Book 4 was when he moved away from the Tolkien influence and really focused on creating something that was his alone.

That's why from book 4 onwards everything was tighter, the history got richer and character development ramped up. 

The mechanics of the One Power became much more defined. What you could or couldn't do with it and its limits became much clearer even contradicting how it was used at times in the first 3 books.

At the same time though, I think you're right about book 3 or at least the later half/third of it. I think by the time he was mostly done rewriting the first 3 he knew where he was going for book 4 and had a firmer grasp of the world he was going to create. That translated into the later parts of book 3 being the beginning of that journey into book 4 and beyond.

**EDIT: It wasn't Wil, it was Dannil Lewin**

Well damn, I clicked on it thinking I was going to see more about what is surely the cold open involving a blind woman and got this instead...wow, that is interesting.

12 minutes ago, Luckers said:

An interesting thought. I don't think it holds up in book--nothing specifically forbids it as far as I recall (there was something about one of the damane in Caemlyn not remembering her original name but I dont think that was about Alivia). Either way enough discussion around her happens by the characters for it to be commented on that she has reverted to her original name vs the name she was referred to when captured by Rand.

 

Doesnt mean it couldnt be a tv show thing?

 

I dunno having a freed damane as a character early on could be a very interesting and clever adaption especially if the goal is to advance the plot more quickly than in the books (which has been made clear)

Yeah, I agree, it's too soon.

And after a quick search, Miri was indeed in the books. She is one of the damane killed in Semirhage's attempt to capture Rand.

9 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I think only in flashbacks, I seem to remember one mention of caring for a lamb under his cloak and another of driving off a wolf from the flock (which could be the same passage actually) where Nynaeve is reminiscing about "I remember the boy who was so proud..." But at Winternight it was still too cold for shearing, and he we never saw him go back to the farm after that. 

 

Should there have been a parallel to Perrin in the forge in Tear, Rand grabbing a sheep and shearing it, or hijacking a flock and taking them for a joy ride because it has just been too long? Could have worked 🙂 

Or they coulda really gone over the top playing on sheepherders jokes and shown a sheep scurrying away from a camp fire as Rand was buckling his pants up.

Let's all just be thankful they didn't go there lol

5 hours ago, Elendir said:

 

It is very superficial assessment.

Rand character was built during first 2 books. RJ needed to show who he was, before he became dragon and became mad.

Friends, he made then supported this "shepherd" not dragon.

Absolutely it was superficial but also pretty accurate. The reality is the girls had a lot more building than the boys in the first 3 books, ok 2 1/2 books. I would argue that Mat and Perrin had more character building in the last half of book 3 than Rand had total to that point.

Rand had some trials and tribulations up to book 3 but he hadn't really changed much or really accepted that he was the Dragon reborn until early book 3 and then we barely saw him for the rest of the book other than the Darkfriend campfire slaughter.

Pretty much the same with Perrin although I would probably say he was the most developed of the 3 by the beginning of the 3rd book but only by a small margin.

Mat from the time he woke up from his healing to the end of book 3 was a whirlwind of development for him. Mat literally exploded (fireworks pun intended) off the pages in book 3. Leaps and bounds, he was pretty much a new character really forming IMO the best duo of the series with Thom. You went from being somewhat disinterested in Mat to sitting up more and getting that feeling of anticipation every time you saw 2 dice in the chapter heading.

And if the last half of book 3 was Mat's breakout, Book 4 was Rand and Perrin's.

On 9/24/2023 at 8:13 AM, Scarloc99 said:

In the books it is hinted that the Seanchan channellers are many many hundreds of years old, I think it might be Alivia who claims she was Damane for about 7-800 years, which the kin just ignore as fanciful talk (which is amusing because they themselves have the same fight with aes sedai) 

No, Alivia was 414 years old.

Reanne Corly of the Kinswomen was around the same when she died.

There was talk of another senior Kinswomen pushing 700.

Cadsuane is currently the oldest living AS at just a few years short of 300

The average life span of an AS who swore the 3 Oaths on the Oath Rod is between 200-300 depending on power level.

The Oath Rod literally cuts their life span in half.

12 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

If it follows the book's lore, will stick it in a spoiler in case anyone wants not to know,

  Hide contents

the warder bond can be used to compel the warder, but if he channel this does not work. Though in the book, she only found this out after she bonded him. It should give Rand all the benefits a Warder has - increased endurance, ability to resist Myrddrals' powers, ability to detect shadowspawn, etc, - and would allow them to feel each others emotions and whereabouts (direction and distance), if the bond is not masked, in which case everything would be muted, not quite turned off like the shows version.

 

3 minutes ago, A Memory Of Why said:

 

What's the chances Matt notices Rand and Lans "confrontation", joins in and puts Alannas Warders in their place?

I think Mat is going to follow them and then be the one that sneaks in and helps Rand escape to go help his friends in Falme.

Should be interesting regardless. 

10 minutes ago, Windigo said:

Yes the actress is doing a phenominal job, but I still have no sympathy for her. I still don't like Liandrin, I have yet to see any redeeming qualities humanizing her other than she had a shitty life as a kid and young girl/woman. 
It is still evil to have bargained with the shadow for her son's life for her own selfish benefit. The idea that he an individual person "is the only thing that is mine", is selfish.  If she truly loved her son and it was about saving his life she would not turn away and would fight Lanfear even knowing she would die. 
I think she set up Nynaeve to follow her and that none of her supposed caring for her son or Nynaeve is real.

Fair enough but she invokes a lot more from you than simply wanting her to get punched in her pouty lips lol

That you even have to quantify that you think she's faking it and don't believe her is a massive upgrade from the book version. 

1 hour ago, Windigo said:

I do not think so, but then who was liked or not certainly did not break down the same way in the books either. The show I think has made all 5 EF characters more likeable. 
I am not hearing from show only watchers the same hate for any of them, that I have heard for decades about many of the characters in the books.

I think this is one main difference between books and shows (Tv/movies ...) 
No matter how well written most people reading books would not say that they like Lanfear, or Elaida We might talk about how that character was written well, or we like the character arc.

In shows it appears people are more likely to like or not like someone, not based on the story and arc but how well they are portraying it. I do not like Renna, or Liandrin, but I can say that the actors playing them have done a fantastic job. 
Part of the issue is in books we get limited POV, so I think readers tend to like the characters based on the POV of the narrator. We are no longer seeing the world primarily through Rand's eyes. (Book 1 is almost all Rand POV, Book 2 starts to add a couple more POV's, it is not until book 3 that we really start to get the ensemble POV's ) 

 

Yeah for all the willingness to point out the bad, there should also be some acknowledgement to the good. 

Let's be honest here, the crossing of Lanfear with Semirhage is phenomenal. This version of Lanfear is much nastier and a hell of a lot scarier than either were on their own in the books. I've said this before, this Lanfear scares the shit outa me.

Then we have Liandrin who went from being a 2d villain with little depth that as reader you didn't care about at all other than wanting to see her get what was coming to her to being this humanized deep character that you both hate and sympathize with.

Of course kudos to both actresses for knocking both these roles out of the park.

1 hour ago, SBroc said:

Could that be the real reason or one of them that Lanfear wants Rand away from Mor.  So he can't fix her link to the OP

I think it's simply that they want Rand as isolated as possible. I don't think their goals with Rand are any different than in books. They want to turn or break him. Ishamael already alluded to this when he asked Lanfear what will happen to Rand when he sees his friends being screwed over. She responded it will break him.

47 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Which, personally, is what I like about forums like this. And what I would say the show has done the best job with (better than the books even) is to make the Darkfriends perspectives and reasons believable/relatable. 

So I appreciate opposite perspectives. 
Im curious then: show wise only - 

Do you think that the general audience likes Rand, Lan, Perrin, or Matt 

more than

Lanfear, Liandrin, Nynaeve, or Egwene?? 
 

I, personally, think that they’ve done a poor job with all the boys … y’all seem to be arguing that - that’s acceptable because it’ll get better… but I’d be curious what (in the show) are the moments so far that would make you think any of the men in the show are heroic? 

The problem with the boys is for the first 3 books is Mat isn't even supposed to be that likeable and not really even a full character until after his healing in tDR, Perrin is a dear in the headlights and Rand is basically a lost puppy for 1&2 and then a runaway puppy in book 3.

Book 4 is when the 3 of them start to branch out and really step into their own shoes.

I mean don't get me wrong, I have complaints about the show but I also always had complaints about books 1-3 as well. There's a lot of wonky stuff in books 1-3 that we later just had to file away as early bookisms, never to be discussed again lol.

I knew and said going in that the show was going to have to do what they could with books 1-3, eliminate the wonky stuff, build the World, lay out some history and explore the characters enough so everything is ready to ramp up into the book 4 and beyond material because that's when the series really goes next level.

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

Ok I think you took my tongue in cheek comment a little to heart, but, I also think what I describe is one of the biggest issues of RJ’s writing, ishy tried to win the last battle, but every step he took, with the exception of sending half hawk wings forces to shara, ended up blowing back in his face. Yes the oaths shortened lives, but they also ensured the white tower stayed stable and became the political force in Randland without needing to resort to might. 
 

In the LOTR Sauron almost won, he came very very close to it. I love WOT but I also acknowledge the weakness in the writing, and the main one is that right the way through the books the first time of reading, I was never once led to believe that the side of light was ever really in any peril, and part of it is that Ishy flaw, the fact that for all the intricate plans the dark puts in place, the good guys end up largely getting lucky, usually literally. There are no real stakes because we know that everything will come good, because the prophesy sorts itself out. 
 

You can try and couch that this happened or that happened, but the fact is, no war of 100 years, no Aiel war, no Rand being born on Dragonmount. And no need for the Dragon, to unify the nations. The hundred year war had to happen in order I make sure the dragon could do what he needed to do. Every one of Ishys success can be tracked directly to the ultimate success of the light, and yes, RJ needed to craft and weave his backstory and figure out how Randland went from the breaking, to stability, to instability and Ishy is a great character to give all that to, but. RJ also shows the problem in starting in the middle of a story. Where as Tolkien had defined all of the past before writing about the present, RJ shows the pitfalls of starting a story and then writing and filling in then backstory as you go. 

 

And trying to insist that ishy somehow instigated all aspects of Seanchan culture, he got unlucky and the Hawkwong forces figured out how to do what the sharan half couldn’t, survive and then thrive. Even his “corrupted” prophesies ended up feeding into the actual prophesy, meaning he was always mean to do what he did just so the Seanchan could return in the right headspace. His main hope was the 2 armies would both be destroyed. 

 

 

The issue is that you believe Ishamael was trying to win The Last Battle. He wasn't, his goal right from the beginning was to break or turn The Dragon so the Dark One could break the Wheel and Ishamael could be free of the never ending cycle he's in.

As for rest of your post...it's obvious you're having some comprehension issues and I'm not going to repeat the points I made again just because you skipped, ignored or are being willfully short-sighted of them the first time.

Cheers

4 hours ago, Rhaze said:

On the flip side, if you know how to heal someone, you most certainly know how not to heal someone.

Never more evident than with Semirhage who went from being one the greatest healers in the AoL to being the nastiest and most effective interrogators and torturers alive.

43 minutes ago, Windigo said:

It also had the effect of limiting the AS's knowledge over time of battle weaves, or how to make weapons, or even develop anything new along those lines. 
The oaths basically were another way to control the Aes Sedai, though not as brutal as the a'dam it had some similar consequences.
 

Exactly. Nothing Ishamael put into motion was just in the short term. Everything he did had very long-term ramifications. 

We used to debate and speculate all the time what Ishy was.

Was he a dreamer, did he have the foretelling ability, did he remember past lives or was it a combination of 2 or all 3?

Personally I always believed he was a Dreamer as I always thought that explanation had the most backing. Not that there wasn't backing for the other options though, just that Dreamer seemed to hold the most. There also isn't enough to completely contradict the other options. 

10 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

So there is no indication that anything in Seanchan lands was down to Ishy's direct hand, so all the decisions and actions they took where made by those over there without influence. 

It is also interesting that he "corrupted" the K- cycle they took with them, only to have those corrupted prophesies come true in a way that allowed the Dragon to bring the Seanchan on side. 

Yes he got more stuff done then any of the foresaken, but, in many ways he was the most inept because every step he took led inevitably to the Dragon winning, he would almost have been better just staying in bed and doing nothing.

No turning up to see LTT, no dragonmount.

No influence of Hawking, no Seanchan army to help win the last battle, no civil war leading to the political situation Randland found itself in to allow Rand to unite the nation. You really could argue the most busy Foresaken, but in terms of the Last Battle the most ineffective because things would have been better for the dark if he had just done nothing. 

You're kinda missing the point here and being extremely shortsighted.

That Ishy is literally the creator of the Seanchan and the reason they exist was the point. What's more is he made sure through his tampering of the K-cycle that when they did return to Randland, they would automatically be in conflict.

And even all this was actually secondary to his real objective which was to send away any of Hawkwing's heirs strong enough or capable enough of holding his Empire together after his passing. Then he made sure Hawkwing passed before any of the remaining heirs could amass enough control or influence to hold it together either.

The result was the War of the Hundred Years and Randland once again splintered. By the time the Dragon was reborn, there was absolutely zero chance of Randland being an united continent with any real advanced level of technology or knowledge.

And let's not forget that making the AS have to swear on the Oath Rod literally cut all their lifespans in half from that point onward.

The statement that the villain shoulda just stayed home because the hero overcame all the traps and obstacles he put in place is ridiculous. IT'S QUITE LITERALLY WHAT THE HERO IS SUPPOSED TO DO!

Sauron never should've made the Rings in the first place because the One Ring is going to get destroyed and you will be defeated anyway, stay home big fella, don't bother.

The Knightking never shoulda bothered making other Whitewalkers or raising an army of undead or crossing the Wall because he was just going to be defeated and killed anyway. Naw dude, just find a nice cave to relax in, it's all good.

What do you mean the good guys won and the bad guys lost, that's preposterous, unheard of, a total shocker!!! 
C'mon now...

No offence but you actually sound ridiculous, sorry but you do.

12 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Is it? He influenced Arthur Hawking, but I have not seen in the background material that he directly influenced the invasion of Seanchan lands once it happened, I might be wrong, but he seemed to be tied to Randland while he was trapped in the bore and so the most he could do was "inspire" the invasion of the seanchan lands (you would think maybe to get rid of a load of soldiers and weaken hawkwings armies). but once the invasion happened foresaken direct influence didn't happen until the seals where weakened and they all became free? 
I might have missed something in the background material or an interview somewhere though that clarifies this. 

Ishamael was free for about 40 years every 1000.

First time was tEotW prologue visiting LTT and temporarily removing his insanity causing the formation of Dragon Mount.

Second time was when he organized and ran the Trolloc Wars splintering the Nation's that had been built after the Breaking and raided the White Tower destroying and taking away a ton of history, knowledge and items of power.

Third was as Hawkwing's main advisor. He fed Hawkwing's distrust of the AS, convinced him to seige the Tower and planted the idea of them having them have to swear on the Oath Rod. He convinced Hawkwing to send half his army away to what is now Seanchan while also altering/corrupting the copies if the K-cycle they took with them.

It is also widely believed Ishamael was responsible for Hawkwing's failing health in the end.

Last time was just after Rand was born when he killed the BA sister (name escapes me ATM) responsible for sending out the hunting parties for any child born around when Rand was.

Forged Lan's cousin and Rand's uncle into Slayer.

Tortured and used Jain Farstrider to set the path for Moiraine and company to go to the Eye.

This is why when I see polls about who was the most effective Forsaken I just laugh if Ishy isn't at 100%.

Ishamael is quite literally responsible for the way the vast majority of the World is today.

It's actually insane and this is only off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more I didn't include.