To be clear, the men's memories that were given to Mat by the Finn's are not just from Generals. There are some from Generals clearly but the vast majority of his memories are from regular soldiers. He has memories of men on different sides of the same battle, he has memories of walking guard on a tower, he has the memory of dancing with a Seafolk noble far above his own station, he has the memory of being one man then the memory of being a boy barely into manhood killing that man.

1000's of men's memories ranging from a few hundred years before the Trolloc Wars to Hawkwing's rise covering around 1400-1600 years worth.

And he is NOT Hawkwing. Any soul that has been spun out already can not be called by the Horn as evidenced by Gaidal Cain not being present at the Last Battle when Olver blows it. Birgitte had already told us he had been spun out prior to even her getting forced out of Tar by Moggy. Reiterated by her again after being called by the Horn after dieing that Gaidal is already born and her time is coming.

Obviously Hawkwing being present when the Horn is sounded rules out that Mat being him reborn.

On 9/19/2021 at 9:27 AM, Pembie said:

So he is Hawkwing with old general memories as well 

So I’m guessing Perrin is somebody too but I haven’t worked that out yet No past werewolves are there lol 

 

Seems fairly clear Perrin was born with 2 souls, a human one and a wolf one.

It's why he can do what the dual soul of Lan's cousin Isam and Rand's uncle Luc can do.

On 9/8/2021 at 9:03 AM, Thrasymachus said:

We have no evidence that he's 100% fluent in the Old Tongue prior to the Finns.  He only pulls out a few phrases, now and then, and only in times of pretty extreme stress or its immediate aftermath.  He shows no real proclivity to it prior to being Healed either, beyond what his friends had, and his dreams just after being Healed were full of as much prophetic/future stuff as anything from the deep past, so who knows what was going on in his head then?

 

Speculation is fun, and the Wheel of Time is seemingly built to encourage it, but one must be careful not to mistake speculation for established fact.  And it can be tough, because RJ fills his pages with unreliable, but confident and authoritative narrators.

We do actually have overwhelming evidence of his fluency prior to the Finn's filling his memories.

Do me a favour and give TSR chapter 15 a re-read.

Big difference between uttering a few words/kind of understanding the old tongue and being 100% fluent in the old tongue like Mat is.

Remember, Mat was 100% fluent long before the Finn's filled his memories in the Rhuidean doorway.

Granted, that at the very least he is a direct descendent of Aemon but everything seems to indicate it's more than that.

The Finn's have specific titles for him..."Gambler", "Trickster", "Son of Battles" that clearly indicates his Soul is specifically known to them and directly tied to the Wheel, spit out for a purpose. Souls like that are not just randomly some descendent of another great general.  

It's pretty clear in tDR chapter 19 that Mat is Aemon reborn.

Well the male channeler thing makes sense. Remember semirage gave that male Adam to the seanchan, and they're assumed to be able to make copies of that since the seanchan have people who can replicate terangreal. So the seanchan would begin collaring male channelers, with male suldam. Someone in avihendas vision mentions that the black tower held out long after the base itself was destroyed, and after the white tower fell, assumedly because the seanchan would take a while to get used to get used to capturing male channelers.

Probably had more to do with the fact that after a while the collared male eventually reverses the link and takes control of the women.

 

 

not the 'most', but Perrin could be awfully boring

Yeah, characters of the high stoic variety (classic Paladin type) do tend to be on the boring side because they are very predictable.

Compared to Rand who at least a little insane through a good chunk of the books and Mat who...well, is Mat are anything but predictable.

And it certainly didn't help that the storyline of the brooding Perrin we got during Faile's imprisonment dragged on far too long.

 

Egwene stared from one to another, especially Amys and Bair. “But you told me how wrong you think what I’m going to do is; you said I must not even think about it. I said I wouldn’t, and then I went ahead and worked out how to do it.”

Startlingly, a smile bloomed on Sorilea’s leathery face. Her multitude of bracelets clattered as she shifted her shawl in a satisfied manner. “You see? I told you she would understand. She could be Aiel

 

 

 “I lied about other things, too. I entered Tel’aran’rhiod alone after I promised I would not.” Amys’ face darkened again. Sorilea, not a dreamwalker, only shook her head ruefully. “I promised to obey as a pupil, but when you said the World of Dreams was too dangerous after I was injured, I went anyway.” Bair folded her arms, expressionless. Sorilea muttered something about foolish girls, but it hardly sounded heated. A third long breath; this would be the hardest to say. Her middle was not fluttering anymore; it danced so hard she was surprised she was not shaking. “The worst of all is, I am not Aes Sedai. I’m only Accepted. You might call me an apprentice. I will not be raised to Aes Sedai for years, if I ever am, now.”

...

Egwene lowered her eyes and stared at the colorful layered carpets, her mouth twisting with scorn. Scorn for that small voice. And shame that it could speak in her head, that she could think it. She was going away, but before she did, she had to put matters right. It was possible, under ji’e’toh. You did what you had to do, then paid the cost. Long months ago, in the Waste, Aviendha had showed her how a lie was paid for.

 

 

 

 

“Each of us was chosen because we have some ability at reading residues, Mother. Better than most, in truth.” So they had not been chosen simply because no one stronger was interested. There was a lesson in that. What Aes Sedai did was seldom as simple as it appeared on the surface. Egwene wished she could stop having to relearn lessons she had thought already learned.

 

Just a few quick examples.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The problem I see with this is that the only time Egwene apologized or she admitted she was wrong out loud was to the Aiel Wiseones and nobody else. 

Even after Gawyne saved her life and proved her wrong about the Assassins not having anything to do with Messana, she still continued to berate him only admitting to herself that she was wrong, not to him.

And she is the only member of the Wonder Twins that didn't apologize/thank Mat for saving her ass in Tear. 

I don't know about the rest of you but I for one thoroughly enjoyed Perrin so easily making a fool of her in TAR. She coulda used a few more humblings over the course of the series afaic. 

 

 

“Perrin Aybara and Mat Cauthon,” Semirhage murmured, inspecting the two shapes. “So that is what they look like. Who knows, Moridin. If you had shared this with us before now, they might already have been dead.”

Thanks for this reference . I am re-reading TDR now and wondered why Rahvin didn't recognize Mat.

 

And for similar reasons Semirhage didn't recognize Mat or his name in WH when they met face to face. They didn't call him Mat Cauthon in the palace, he was referred to among the Seanchan as Tylin's Toy.

One of my favourite minor scenes btw

WH-17: 

It was not the presence of Suroth or the strangers that jerked him to a halt though.The Dice had stopped. Landing with a thunder that made his skull ring. That had never happened before. 

He stood there waiting for one of the Forsaken to leap out of the flames in the marble fireplace or the Earth to swallow the Palace beneath him.

The thing I'm thinking about was with the illuminators' guild house, quite early in the series. But I don't remember the incident entirely, so can't really say for sure what that was about. It is possible I'm thinking about when he saved Aludra.

 

 

I'm pretty you're thinking about the burning down of the Illuminators chapter house in chapter 27 of the Great Hunt. That was caused Rand and Loial, some Trollocs and Selene.

Aludra was in charge of that chapter house so she was blamed and expelled for it all. We don't see her again until Mat saves her life in the barn tDR chpt 40.

not sure about the dagger cut from Fain causing the Cleansing of saidin.  some Rand POV tells that the Aelfinn gave him an answer about that; and that he discussed it with Herid Fel.  and I am not sure if the Healing of that cut was discussed with Rand in detail; Rand was unconscious while that Healing was taking place.

the Aelfinn answer and the mentioned discussion/discussions might have been enough for Rand.  and/or Rand could have come up with the method through any number of means.

 

 

forgot to tell in last post that one more thing was predicted.

a Viewing told that one of the collared Aes Sedia was going to be rescued.

It was how he was "healed" after Fain sliced him that showed him how to cleanse saidin. Flinn didn't actually heal him, he walled off the two evil's together, said that they were fighting each other and canceled each other out. THAT was what gave Rand the solution, not what Fel said. His conversations with Fel had to do with how to re-seal the DO.

The Pattern is far reaching. Just like how Tigraine had to do what she did so Rand could be born on the slopes of Dragonmount 20 years ago. Shadar Logath had to be there for the Dragon Reborn to cleanse saidin.

Even though RJ said in the past that Fain was "kind of outside the pattern", I don't believe that was always the case though. He ended up being a loose thread after slicing Rand in aCoS as he really didn't have an affect on or was involved in anything after that. A loose end that was eventually snipped by the same person that released him in the first place.

The Pattern needed Sahdar Logath and Fain. Logath so saidin could be cleansed. Fain so that he could lead them to Falme, so he could lead Perrin to the Two Rivers, so he could tip Elaida over the edge to eventually make way for Egwene, so he could show Rand the way to cleanse saidin. After that, the Pattern was done with Fain.

@Sabio Mat was also told that along with him having to go to Rhuidean or he would die, that he was going to die and live again and that he was going to marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons. 

So what risk in his mind was he actually taking by going into the doorway in Rhuidean?

He hadn't died yet and he hadn't married Tuon yet.

Mat was a gambler, that's how the Pattern set him as. It was his job to take risks and be impulsive.

When the pattern needed to curb him for a while or didn't want him to be impulsive, it dropped half a building on him heh

So you're saying he didn't have a choice? In that case, that goes for virtually all the actions all the characters take. Going to Rhuidean doesn't mean he has to go in the doorway. Yes, we should be glad he did in the end - we should also be glad the women used the bowl, even though that causes problems for a time, or that Egwene became Amyrlin, all things considered, and decided to take the Tower. Elaida was dangerous and would pose problems for Rand and the last battle. 

I don't really understand what you mean about him having to take the knife - they had to go to Shadar Logoth, yes, i guess, but as Sabio says, he didn't have to take the knife, and it was definitely reckless. Regardless of whether it didn't end up being all bad. An action can be reckless even though the consequences of it were desirable or at least not all baf. 

 

Not quite sure what problems the Bowl caused? If you mean how the Power was going wild near Ebou Dar, you're confusing Elayne blowing up her gateway with the Bowl use.

Mat had to take the knife so Fain would have it later to cut Rand with. If Rand isn't cut by that knife, then he doesn't figure out how to cleanse Saidin. Kind of a big deal no?

 

 

It is hard to remember the specific circumstances without going back and rereading, but just from the top of my head, I remember: 1. Entering/conquering Tear 2. The whole Caemlyn/fireworks' guild thing 3. Escaping Ebou Dar 4. Chasing down the girls in Ebou Dar (and Tanchico? Can't really remember anymore what happened there, maybe I am mixing it up with a different situation) 5. Entering the ter'angreal in Rhuidean 6. Never really thinking through what he says, which leads to him babbling off to Seanchans and others while drunk 7. Basically anything else that doesn't involve direct battle or planning battle after the incident in pt 5. 7. Not realizing he should mainly leave meddling to Thom etc., he seems to be completely blind for the non-battle related skills of people around him, such as Thom when it comes to politics / reading currents and people and the women when it comes to doing magic and what that makes them capable of. 8. Taking the knife in Shadar Logoth despite all the warnings. He acted generally reckless in there.

 

 

 

#1 He had to get into the Stone to save the girls, which he did. His explosion provided a perfect distraction for Rand and the Aiel.

#2 No idea what you're talking about, be more specific

#3 Freeing the Seafolk women was a risk? Or talking Tuon along? The escaped Seafolk caused a disturbance just as Mat and company were getting through the lines to leave Ebou Dar. He HAD to take Tuon at that point or the Seanchan would still be at war with everyone, never mind entering the Last Battle with the rest of Randland. It took her away from Semirhage's influence and most likely Tuon would have eventually been killed by Suroth if she stayed in Ebou Dar.

#4 He wasn't in Tanchico. As far as Ebou Dar...he saved Elayne's from being killed by the Gholem. Directly and indirectly found the location of the Bowl as well. Not to mention he all but single-handedly got the Seafolk women in line.

#5 He had to, was told to in fact, he didn't have a choice. Go to Rhuidean Son of Battles/Trickster/Gambler, or you will die was the jist of it. This was one of the most important decisions he ever made in the entire series. It's mind boggling and quite frankly downright scary the amount of events, storylines and characters that cease to be if Mat doesn't have those memories, that ter'angreal and that weapon. Rand, Elayne, Moiraine, Tuon all dead.

#6 Not sure exactly what you're referring to but I'm almost positive that it leads back to being part of the Seeker setting Karede on the trail which eventually leads to him being able to bring Tuon back to Ubou Dar safely with the proof of Suroth being a traitor.

#7 Not sure what that has to do with risk taking exactly?

#8 Had to be done. The domino effect of him not taking the Dagger are once again mind boggling. No cleansed Saidin, no holes in his memories to be filled...the list is endless.

 

In the end, there's more than enough to make the argument that Mat had just as much affect on how events played out as Rand did.

 

Fine, you don't like Mat, fair enough but to say that his "risk taking" was a detriment to those around him or especially to the story itself...well, that's just completely false in so many ways, complete opposite in fact.

 

 

I think he meant that Mat knew he had to go to Rhudiean, but nothing told him to go in the doorway there.  It was a foolish risk since he assumed it was the same, and without thinking he stormed in and that assumption nearly killed him.  I would say the other reckless thing he did was take the dagger.  That was him being greedy and thinking he knew more then Moraine, with his thinking he clever since it wasn't "given" to him.  I mean it has to been deemed reckless since it very well could of killed everyone.  The risks he took ended up being needed, but I would classy those incidents as being reckless since he didn't really think either out before doing them.  Rescuing the sea folk women could be classified as sort of reckless, since it was a risk he really didn't need to take.  But I can't blame him for that since it wouldn't of been like Mat to simply abandon them.

 

Him taking the dagger HAD to happen.

Him going through the 2nd Doorway HAD to happen.

It is hard to remember the specific circumstances without going back and rereading, but just from the top of my head, I remember: 1. Entering/conquering Tear 2. The whole Caemlyn/fireworks' guild thing 3. Escaping Ebou Dar 4. Chasing down the girls in Ebou Dar (and Tanchico? Can't really remember anymore what happened there, maybe I am mixing it up with a different situation) 5. Entering the ter'angreal in Rhuidean 6. Never really thinking through what he says, which leads to him babbling off to Seanchans and others while drunk 7. Basically anything else that doesn't involve direct battle or planning battle after the incident in pt 5. 7. Not realizing he should mainly leave meddling to Thom etc., he seems to be completely blind for the non-battle related skills of people around him, such as Thom when it comes to politics / reading currents and people and the women when it comes to doing magic and what that makes them capable of. 8. Taking the knife in Shadar Logoth despite all the warnings. He acted generally reckless in there.

 

 

#1 He had to get into the Stone to save the girls, which he did. His explosion provided a perfect distraction for Rand and the Aiel.

#2 No idea what you're talking about, be more specific

#3 Freeing the Seafolk women was a risk? Or talking Tuon along? The escaped Seafolk caused a disturbance just as Mat and company were getting through the lines to leave Ebou Dar. He HAD to take Tuon at that point or the Seanchan would still be at war with everyone, never mind entering the Last Battle with the rest of Randland. It took her away from Semirhage's influence and most likely Tuon would have eventually been killed by Suroth if she stayed in Ebou Dar.

#4 He wasn't in Tanchico. As far as Ebou Dar...he saved Elayne's from being killed by the Gholem. Directly and indirectly found the location of the Bowl as well. Not to mention he all but single-handedly got the Seafolk women in line.

#5 He had to, was told to in fact, he didn't have a choice. Go to Rhuidean Son of Battles/Trickster/Gambler, or you will die was the jist of it. This was one of the most important decisions he ever made in the entire series. It's mind boggling and quite frankly downright scary the amount of events, storylines and characters that cease to be if Mat doesn't have those memories, that ter'angreal and that weapon. Rand, Elayne, Moiraine, Tuon all dead.

#6 Not sure exactly what you're referring to but I'm almost positive that it leads back to being part of the Seeker setting Karede on the trail which eventually leads to him being able to bring Tuon back to Ubou Dar safely with the proof of Suroth being a traitor.

#7 Not sure what that has to do with risk taking exactly?

#8 Had to be done. The domino effect of him not taking the Dagger are once again mind boggling. No cleansed Saidin, no holes in his memories to be filled...the list is endless.

In the end, there's more than enough to make the argument that Mat had just as much affect on how events played out as Rand did.

Fine, you don't like Mat, fair enough but to say that his "risk taking" was a detriment to those around him or especially to the story itself...well, that's just completely false in so many ways, complete opposite in fact.

Egwene manipulates anyone and everyone. That is sort of her role for a lot of the mid to late series. And something that makes me dislike her, even though it is understandable.

 

The point is still that Mat is a lazy fool and yet simultaneously an unnecessary risk taker, who complains a lot. But he manages to appear likeable a lot of the time even so. The funny thing is, everyone sees it. And might that way also goad him a bit. But for example, before the escape from Ebou Dar, Thom says Mat, who lectures them about acting reckless, will be the one to do something rash and stupid and grand. He is right. Thom usually is. Mat should listen more to him (and anyone else, really).

List the reckless or unnecessary risks that Mat took.

Well, exactly. They used his stubbornness against him. They didn't really want him to come with them to Ebou Dar, but figured since he would come with them, they might aswell try to use him. Which is a sort of manipulation, definitely, but I still don't agree they manipulated him to get him to come to Ebou Dar.

Egwene had already figured out and explained how she was going to use the Band right before the paragraph I quoted...

LoD chapter 39:

Before she could speak, though, Elayne said, "Do you mean to join him and this Band of the Red Hand to Gareth Bryne?"

Egwene shook her head. The warders said there were six or seven thousand, more than she remembered from Cairhien, and a considerable number, if not nearly so many as those two captured men claimed, but Bryne's soldiers truly would not take kindly to Dragonsworn. Besides, she had her own scheme, which she explained while they drew the other chairs to the table. It was very like sitting in a kitchen talking. She moved the stole farther over.

"That is brilliant." Elayne's grin said she meant it. But then, Elayne always said what she meant. "I didn't think the other would work either, but this really is brilliant."

Nynaeve sniffed irritably. "What makes you think Mat will go along? He'll stick a pole through the spokes just for the fun of it."

We of course find out later that her plan was to play the Band off against her own army in order to increase it and to use it as leverage in the Hall.

This plan relies on two things though. Obviously if Elayne simply goes to Caemlyn, Mat and the Band will go with her so that won't do but Elayne has to make that choice on her own, which she of course does without Egwene even having to push her.

Second, it would be a lot harder to manipulate the Band if Mat is still there controlling it.

Taking Mat to Ubou Dar with them kills two birds with one stone. It leaves Egwene free to manipulate the Band for her own agenda and taking along Mat and some soldiers also provides Elayne and Nynaeve better protection to find the Bowl.

Oh yes, Egwene manipulated and used Mat, absolutely no question. 

I wouldnt say the women manipulated him into going to Ebou Dar, they merely knew he would not give up "taking them" to Caemlyn, and figured it was easiest if he comes along. He is incredible - those women, not even bound by the rod could take out most threats themselves, but he seems to consider them helpless. That way of thinking he is the only capable person is his worst trait IMO, but I guess it does have an appeal to quite a few people ;)

LoD Chapter 39:

"Yes, that is Mat," Egwene sighed. He had been the most irresponsible boy in Emond's Field, maybe in the Two Rivers. "But if he gives his word, he keeps it. And I think he promised Rand to see you back in Caemlyn, Elayne. You notice he retreated to asking me"--in a way he had--"but you he never changed a hair on. I think he'll try to stay as close to you as your belt pouch. But we won't let him even see you unless he does as we want."

I don't hate Mat, but I find him incredibly annoying. Why he is such a fan favourite astonishes me. He believes he is always right, treats women like children (some of the women treat him the same way, for sure), refuses to listen to logic and constantly complains about his duties. Not to mention the whole weird thing with Tuon.

 

Sure, there is something about him that just makes people like him. But to me, he is the by far most annoying and stupid character. He keeps getting intro trouble and he does not understand what is going on around him half of the time - politics is NOT his strong suite.

 

I see people go like "he is so nice and awesome and the girls are so mean to him", and I'm like... Are we reading the same books? He takes unneccessary risks, and he does not believe anyone - particularly women, even women who have held their own several times - are capable of managing themselves. He rushes after them in places like Ebou Dar and often makes more trouble than there originally was. He does not respect that they have their own lives to live and their own missions - because in his book, whatever they want to do is unimportant, the only important thing is that he keeps them "safe". Had it been up to him, all the women of the series would be locked up in a room and refused to go out - for their own safety. He des not listen to them, and he is mad when they lie to him - which they have to, to be able to do their thing. Most of the cases of him "saving" them stems from him rushing after them wherever they are, causing someone to notice him / follow him which then in turn gets them all into trouble - and then Mat ends up sorting it out, but it wouldn't happen in the first place if he hadn't been such an overprotective fool.

 

He is so condescending and incapable of seeing that others do not need his "protection", while at the same time complaining that they aren't grateful enough for what they never asked for. Plus, he has that same stupid block on killing women that Rand has. Which also is extremely condescending, in my book. Like women are children (whom most people would have problems killing).

Well the whole "weird thing" with Tuon (Order) is that she is Mat's opposite (Chaos).

Mat was only overprotective of Elayne in Ebou Dar because he had made a promise to Rand to get her safely back to Caemlyn. A promise I might add that the girls used to manipulate him to going to Ebou Dar in the first place.

Mat only went to save them in Tear also because of a promise he made to deliver Elayne's letter to her mother.

Mat's "complaining" is what endears him to most people. No matter how loud or how often he complains about having to do something, there is absolutely no hesitation in doing it.

Mat is the bad boy, rebel with a cause and it's no secret he was one of RJ's favourites to write.

As much as I didn't like Eladia either and that I believe she was always a little unbalanced, we still have to cut her some slack for her increased levels of erratic behavior and paranoia after tFoH prologue.  

actually, each reader's reason/reasons could be different.  and I recall some readers that seemed to dislike him after his first POV; if I recall correctly, those were around books 10 & 11.

from what I recall of the first books, he seemed to change quite a bit before his first POV; so his thoughts could have been different in his earlier scenes.

Books 10&11?

Mat's first PoV is chapter 19 of The Dragon Reborn when he wakes up.

Up till that point we had only seen Mat though someone else's eyes and, except for a handful of chapters in the beginning, a tainted Matt at that.

The reason why most people dislike Mat or don't take a lot of interest in him early on, other than his personality being tainted by the Dagger, is because we don't get a single POV from him until tDR chapter 19.

Once we start getting his internal monologues and thought processes behind his actions, you just can't help yourself. 

I have no doubt at all that by the time you finish book 5, "The Fires of Heaven", you will feel a flutter of excitement every time you flip a page and see those 5 dice on a chapter heading ;)

There will be no fighting it, it will just happen.

I felt that the first 7 books were awesome. Don't know why some people don't care for the 7th. 

Oh don't get me wrong, I liked aCoS, it was a good book.

It simply suffers from following, imo, the 3 very best in the whole series. It was also the first book that we had to wait a little longer for.

Up till that point, we had gotten 6 books released in just under 5 years. 2 in '90 and one every year after in the fall like clockwork up to book 6. We had to wait a little more than a year and a half for aCoS.

I started reading the first book in '91, about a month before tDR was released.

The only book that I felt came close to the euphoria I experienced of books 4, 5 & 6 was KoD, book 11.

Those are the top 4 books in the series afaic.

That said, all the books are good or very good with the exception of book 10, CoT.

CoT was a trainwreck that we waited a long time for and had a lot of people genuinely worried about the series going forward.

Well I hope you're feeling better and get back going soon cause once you finish tDR, you will start what I consider the 3 best consecutive books and the height of the series.

It was Hawkwing's son who started them on the path to enslaving channelers..  How did Ishy manipulate the Seanchan?  He added to Hawkwing's strong mistrust of Aes Sedai not his son.  After all Bonwhin tried to manipulate him and may of had his first wife assassinated.  Also she undoubtably played a part in the other nations attacking him.  All Ishy did was play on his dislike of Aes Sedai. 

 

Luthair arrived in Seanchan to find Aes Sedai making open use of their power, formed temporary alliances with one another, where it was basically every woman for herself all scheming and plotting for advancement.  Luthair brought with him, inherited from his father's difficulties, a profund distrust of all things Aes Sedai.  When he discovered the cutthroat nature of the Aes Sedai who ruled Seanchan, that distrust grew into outright hatred.

Luthair didn't start out with those intentions. Just to simply to conquer Seanchan. He was having a rough time of it too until the inventor of the a'dam, Deain Sedai offered him an alliance presenting him with one of her sisters collared. They worked together for decades collaring channelers until Luthair turned on Deain and collared her as well.

I'm only working from memory here but It took some 800 years for Seanchan to be fully consolidated/conquered.

As far as Ishy's corruption of the Seanchan, it was two-fold.

First off, not only was Ishy the one that counciled Hawkwing to defy the Aes Sedai in the first place. He was also the one that convinced him to send his heirs along with a large portion of his armies across the Aryth Ocean. 

Ishy's wanted to weaken Hawkwing's Empire so that upon his death it would splinter, which it did. His goal of course was that when the Last Battle approached, the Shadow's forces and manipulations would be opposed by individual Nations and not an united front.

Secondly, Hawkwing's heirs left with their own copies of the Karaethon Cycle. However, they were corrupted versions compliments of Ishy.

His goal here of course was so that when Hawkwing's armies did return, they would be at odds with and have different beliefs from those in "Randland".