Why the Seanchan could never have won

[WOT1402]

In Aviendhas vision we see the Senachan conquer the world. I am going to argue that this either her seeing something was very unlikely and just to teach her a moral lesson. Otherwise it makes no sense. The world Rand leaves at the end of memory of light makes this impossible unless we presume the Seanchan changed so radically that they would no longer be the Seanchan.

 

Firstly, the Seanchan homeland is in civil war and no longer under the control of the Empress. This means they should not have the endless reserves of manpower to draw upon. Any campaign to regain their homeland would be a massive drain and would probably have caused catastrophic population loss. Also it's likely that te last battle proceeded in that continent and that without our heroes or the bulk of their armies that much of that continent was destroyed by the Trollocs being totally unprepared for an invasion and in civil war. So it would have lost staggering numbers of people, soldiers, cities destroyed and farmland burnt.

 

Egwene leaves the Aes Sedai a massively more powerful institution with thousands of channellers part of it. They would lose their numbers advantage. Their knowledge of channeling vastly exceeds that of the Seanchan. Also their experience at battle magic would be lost since every Aes Sedai would have experience of war from the Last Battle.The Aes Sedai also have large supplies of Adams, can make them and have knowledge of linking. Since the device the Senahan use to control their mages prevents linking (?) this means that the Aes Sedai on their own would be better than the Seanchan whose system is inherently flawed.

 

An order of male channellers exist. Individually every male channeller is better than a female channeler who does not link. By inference this mean no individual Suldam can beat a male channeler as they do not know linking. Plus with lots of Aes Sedai joining with the male channellers it's increasingly likely that the two groups would become one like they were in the Age of Legends. This allows powerful male channlers to link with female channellers. Since the Seanchan have no device capable of controlling male channellers they would be incapable of matching this advantage.

 

The complete inferiority of the Seanchan army. The end of the Last Battle sees our heroes create multiple powerful armies and the rise of several strong nation states. The Aiel, a warrior people live in Randland now. Lan recreates his Kingdom. Perrin is creating what's essentially a new kingdom based around powerful longbow units. Matt creates a strong mercenary army. Elayne unites Andor and Caurhein with a powerful army behind them. Without the threat from the North the border states would be free to intervene. Plus Rands territory appeared like it would continue as a state in some capacity at the end of the saga. This would be a powerful bulwark against any Seanchan army. The only advantage the Seanchan army ever possessed was its limitless supply of man power and advantage in channellers. Without these advantages it's army is really a pathetic collection who lost every battle where they didn't have their channellers. Points in case being Rands campaign where a tiny fraction of his Aiel and a few male channelers with no linking, slaughtered several armies of Seanchan so completely that they were almost driven out fthe continent. He only didn't because he didn't want to risk more of the soldiers he needed for the last battle.

 

Now the big mcguffin in Aviendhas vision which explains away the Senachan conquest is that they use Matts gun powder technology. Now, this is stupid. They open a portal to a volcano and destroy an army. I don't care if you have a smooth bore cannon or musket, you're not winning that battle. Plus it's a big assumption that Matt or the non Seanchan units he armed with gun powder wouldn't have led to the introduction and proliferation of these weapons in Randland nations. It's mentioned that Andor has a few cannons but the Seanchan are never shown as having any propensity for technical ingenuity whereas Elayne was. By all rights Andors army would have been fully equipped and have better knowledge of their tactical application.

 

Personally I really do think that the Seanchan should have taken the place of those people who joined one of the Forsaken in the last battle. The only way they could have conquered the world post Last Battle would be if literally everything went their way and all of our heroes work was undone by their successors in a few generations (which yes, is implicit as Avienda sees her children start the crisis). But it's just another in a long case of the Seanchan getting this weird special treatment where they are more powerful than all other factions because reasons. I still don't understand how Rand could not beat them when he was actively trying to drive them out with a 500-1 K/D ratio.

[Werthead]

There are no Trollocs or Myrddraal in Seanchan, at all. They were completely wiped out after the Breaking. Some Draghkar and Darkhounds survived in the Lesser Blight, but apparently not in very large numbers. To transport a Shadowspan army to Seanchan would require sailing them over or marching across the polar icecap, neither of which are very practical solutions.

 

We also know that Jordan was planning a sequel trilogy in which Mat and Tuon would have reunified Seanchan, so he had already worked out how the civil war in Seanchan would have been lessened in duration and ultimately resolved, with Tuon presumably winning and becoming Empress of both the home continent and the colony states in the Westlands.

 

At that point it becomes simple numbers. The Seanchan continent is utterly vast, completely dwarfing the Westlands (in RJ's notes it was supposed to dwarf the Westlands, Aiel Waste and Shara combined, but the mapmaker made the southern subcontinent considerably smaller than RJ envisioned). Its population outstrips that of the Westlands, where population levels were dropping for millennia, probably several times over. Once the Seanchan worked out how to Travel, it really would have been all over.

[WOT1402]

I thought their continent was connected to the Darkspawn lands.

 

Why are they made so powerful? I just find it incredibly annoying that one faction gets this much power despite being a flawed and evil society. It's really out of step with the rest of the WoT. Why reward an avowedly evil and corrupt society that sends a horrible moral message that this sort of society works. That slavery works. That Imperialism works. They're just horrible and I wanted them all to die everytime one of them showed up. RJ attempts to humanise them always just ended up making them worse. How on earth do Tuon and te girl married to that ship captain not accept the evil and sheer stupidity in their society. If WoT was like GOT and morally all about rewarding making the "tough decisions" then Rand should have killed every single one of them. That RJ had him give these people a second chance and they spat in his face and continued being malignant puss just felt really wrong. They don't even suffer during the last battle for their incompetence and stupidity.

 

That being said, I do think that the numbers would be compensated for by the Seanchan having vastly inferior channellers with no male channellers or circles. Since their entire society is based around using a device that only works on women and prevents linking. If even a few of the feat performed during the last battle were repeated on the Seanchan army it would be game over for them.

 

Plus the quality of all the Randland soldiers is still vastly better and without their channellers they wouldn't win. Which is why they never won any battles where they didn't have channellers; because their entire army is junk.

[WOT1402]

Literally every other society or group, even the Whitecloaks, admit their failings and change for the better. Everybody except the Seanchan. Who continue exactly as they were before, enslaving and torturing their own people. Having designs on conquering free people and being generally demented. I mean Tuon was an utterly irredeemable character after she learned about the suldam and had her "I don't care" rubbish. Nobody likes a hypocrite.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Morality is subjective. Killing every seanchan would have made rand as evil as any creature in WoT.

 

Power is not a reward for moral virtue, and weakness is not the punishment for evil in WoT or on this earth.

 

Not sure how their channelers would be considered weaker... We haven't met many of them, and after the books they are stronger than ever, and they have stolen aes Sedai who will give them knowledge of all the weaves that the white tower knows.

 

As for male channelers, the seanchan have now witnessed their power and there's a good chance, since saidin has been cleansed, that they would harness this power.

 

Im not certain where RJ would have gone with the mat and tuon plot, but it's possible that he would have influenced her, and the society, to move away from slavery. But with or without it, they outman and outgun the rest of randland by miles. Added bonus - their lands haven't been broken again by this last battle as randland largely has.

[WOT1402]

No because they're an evil society. Killing millions of their soldiers is no different than killing Trollocs.

 

How could they harness Saidin? Doesn't the Adam only work on women? Plus they can't form circles.

 

Well not really, as I said, all the factions from the Aiel to the Whitecloaks change profoundly and often for the better. Where's that with the Seanchan?

 

I don't like it because by making them more powerful and important it makes every other plot line or natio or group that joins Rand feel unimportant. I just don't get why RJ thought "let's have this faction that has the best army, the best channellers and the entire last battle hinges on them teaming up. But let's also have them be totally unsympathetic and unrepentant about everything they do.

 

I think RJ wanted something similar to the Tsuranani in Magician. But that's different because the power level isn't that extreme, their society does change and we have very sympathetic characters who have nuanced views of how their society works. Also the author doesn't ram down our throat how this faction is more powerful than everything else to the point where they're more of a threat than the big bad and they don't overshadow our protagonist factions. So yes it does feel good when the Tsuranni send an army to aid the Kingdoms army at the end of the first trilogy. I did not at all feel with the Seanchan. I genuinely wanted them to die whenever they showed up and they have a horrible resolution to their story arc where Matt married an obnoxious creature.

 

I mean I thought it was great when that Forsaken said she'd killed the Empress and put them into civil war because finally these people were paying and what they deserved. They should have suffered for all the horrible things they did instead of getting rewarded and allowed to survive the last battle with their Empire intact.

[WOT1402]

Well I guess with the numbers and channellers they would still win. I d hate to think that was the direction RJ or BS would have went with the series.

[Sabio]

You seem to of forgotten Avi's vison was the Aiel not being part of the dragon's peace.  In her vison the Aiel went to fight the Seanchan on their own, then each nation came at them.  With each victory the Seanchan gained more and more damane.  The point of joining the dragons peace was to ensure the vison didn't coem true.  That if the Seanchan attacked they would immedietly be fighting everyone.

 

Still have no idea where you are getting that there was any mention the Seanchan channelers were somehow superior.  Seanchan the army were superior to Randland armies because they used the power in battle.  With the arrival of the damane the calvary charge became obsolete.  Damane are mostly viewed as weapons. 

 

Its unknown what the seanchan will do with male channelers since Rand left the Blacktower out of the peace and he never made the seanchan agree to let any male go free.  They have no way to harness males, so likely they will still kill any male they find.  Quite possible the blacktower will quietly recruit in Seanchan lands.

[DemandredFO]

I don't remember but didn't the Seanchan collar Mogedien

[jack of shadows]

yes they did collar moghedien at the field of merrilor, and took her to ebou dar.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I think in conflict the inabililty to link is a big weakness for the Seanchen. Look what Egewene did during the raid. Their channelers don't seem that effective against other channelers unless they have the element of surprise. A circle led by a skilled channeler should be able to shield an equal or ever greater number of unlinked damane. Then kill the sul'dam and the damane is useless. Drop the shields and move to the next targets. A good use for the kin or the weakest of sisters in battle would be to round up damane who have been neutralized this way and move them from the front lines.

 

Another problem that I think they would face is that their chanelers and society as a whole are much less likely to innovate. Human curiosity and is a big driver in innovation. So is the desire to make a better life for yourself. Damane though have those things surpressed almost completely. Aes Sedai really had become stagnant themselves at the time the series opened, but they seem headed in a different direction by the end. The same holds true with the males.

 

Male a'dam are possible so they could potentially institute the same system they have with the females. For some reason I thought that one of the books suggested copies had been made, and if that memory is right then they could probably get that system moving for men as well. On the other hand, without trained male channelers available to them and with the barriers to innovation I mentioned above, they could potentially take centuries to make progress with their knowledge of varried weaves.

 

Even so, if I'm an Aes Sedai, I'm spending a lot of time working out a counter for those collars. A neckless ter angreal that stops the collar from locking or something, or maybe just wearing a thick choker in battle.

[Sabio]

Moghi had extra of the collars male collars made for the trap on rand.  My guess though is Moghi had those made and not the Seanchan.  Look at how powerful a full circle was when the Aes Sedai faced it.

 

Alot of what AIno just said is why I would never say Seanchan channelers are superior.  There is no push to learn new or helpful weaves.  On their own they never would of discovered gateways, curing someone who lost the ability to channel, etc..   SInce they view damane as less than human there is no desire to teach them anything new.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Come to think of it the oath rod probably is an extremely effective counter to the a'dam. Add a fourth oath "I will not touch the power while wearing an a'dam". Boom, collared Aes Sedai are useless to the Seanchen. The Seanchen would probably start just killing Aes Sedai, but better that than enslaved and forced to help enslave others.

 

I would probably think about making copies of the dreamspike, (Elayne should be able to do that) and set them up to stop a gateway raid into the White and Black Towers at the least, and probably other strategic cities as well. I would also have some prepared to set up to trap Seanchen armies in place.

[Sabio]

Is there a dreamspike they can still get to?  Perin destroyed one and put the other one in a rock.  Also only Perin has an idea of what a dreamspike is.  Maybe if they ever find Mordin's stash in his fortress.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I would think that Perin could find it since he set it up. Elayne could ask him to get it for her and the white tower. Word of the dreamspike shoud get out unless Perrin never mentions it to anyone. Many people know that travelling was interrupted in multiple locations and many people know that Perrin did something in the wolf dream that let travelling resume when he and his forces were facing the whitecloaks. So while people may not know specifically of the dreamspike they know enough to ask the right questions to the right person to get the information.

[WOT1402]

Actually yeah, couldn't Aes Sedai just use their new found knowledge f the dream world to kill the Seanchan leadership and channellers?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

No, don't think they could use their knowledge to murder anyone, and if they started doing things like that, I'm pretty sure they'd wind up collared by a grateful randland population themselves. Murder the enslaved channelers? Seriously? I don't know where Jordan would have taken the plot had he lived, but aes Sedai murdering people in their sleep probably wasn't on the agenda for anyone but the forsaken.

[Sabio]

Once again the three oaths don't allow them to kil lanyone they don't like.  To force someone into the dream world to kill would be a rather evil act. 

[Ainosterhaspie]

The oaths wouldn't stop from killing in TAR if you aren't doing it with the power. That would be a loophole in the oaths. A theoretical war with the Seanchen would probably need to be very desperate before the Aes Sedai would resort to assassinations like that though. Morally speaking I don't think it would be meaningfully different from bombings to take out enemy forces other than perhaps being better at avoiding collateral damage to innocents.

[wotfan4472]

Yes, the Oath would stop them even pulling them from their dreams. The Aes Sedai were outclassed by the Sharan channellers. I have a feeling that the Seanchan is the Pattern's way of starting to remove the knowledge of the One Power, since the Dark One is defeated, and also culling the One Power out of the population like the Aes Sedai did by hunting and gentling the men in the three thousand years previous.

[Sabio]

Wouldn't say the Aes Sedai were totally outlcassed.  The Reds especially should be good at countering channelers.. The Aes Sedai were weakened by something like 1/3 of their numbers being BA and the beating they took when the Sharans suddenly appeared.  Basically it was the Aes Sedai and Ashaman trying to hold back every channeler by themselves since the Seanchan left.  Unlike Shara and Seanchan were every channeler is tought to kill, the Aes Sedai aren't    You have some ajahs Grey, white. Brown, and Yellow which probably only know the basic of weaves that could kill.  Where Red, Blue, and Green I would see as being much better at it.  Sharan channelers also had no restrictions on what they could use, so they were using balefire non stop and as Egwene saw was causing the issue of anyone the Aes Sedai killed were reppearing when that Aes Sedai got balefired.

 

About the dream world, Egwene their most experienced dream world person is dead.  The Aiel wise ones would certainly never teach them how to force someone into a dream and kil lthem.  If you go into their dream you become part of it, so you would need to do what Ishy did and force someone into where you wanted them.  The Aes Sedai are still rather novice with the world of dreams. 

 

Perin will more than likely never bring up a dream spike to anyone, and the only person who might suspect he has knowledge of something was Egwene, who is dead.  Everyone else was pretty clueless as to how traveling was being blocked.  To Perin's knowledge every dream spike he knew about is destroyed. 

[Werthead]

I thought their continent was connected to the Darkspawn lands.

 

Seanchan has a Lesser Blight at its northern end, but all Trollocs and Myrddraal there were wiped out in their entirety. The only land connection between the Lesser Blight and the Great Blight is over the northern polar icecap or by sailing over the ocean.

[DemandredFO]

Technically Rand would also knows because of LTT memories