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Why doesnt Matt hate Tuon?


WOT1402
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I mean everything wrong with the Senachan just get beautifully summed up when Tuon learns how her whole culture is a pathetic and stupid lie and she simply says "I don't care". This is a heroine we re supposed to want Matt to get with to help save te world but she says that? Yoire really telling me that Matt puts up with that? Why does Matt suddenly not have a conscience and treat slavery and torture as some sort of benign act? Put up with a rank hypocrite because he doesn't want to offend her? These people enslaved and tortured his friends. If I met the people who did that and they were as utterly unrepentant and self righteous I don't see how any sane person could not hate them for that.

 

I mean Matt acts like he just doesn't hear what Tuon is saying. He makes light of her clai that Aes Sedai are dangerous by saying "oh they can be haughty and annoying". That's an incredibly mild reaction to a woman who thinks an entire group of people (of which she is one!!!) are subhuman scum. This woman is a complete and unapologetic until the end monster. Nothing about her or her people are sympathetic. They have murdered tens of thousands of people in their wars of conquest because they believe they have a birthright from some warlord who conquered the world for his own ego. Again, is Matt really going to sympathise with that. Cause a massive war that brings misery and suffering just for your birthright and aggrandisement?

 

I mean even in general. What do the Seanchan do to make me as a reader think that Rand killing all of them isn't a good idea? I mean we know that they'll exterminate the Aiel and enslave all of the other Kingdoms in the future. We are told that they will destroy this world we want to see saved. The only reason I though any of that was bad was because collateral damage and Rand losing his soul. If he could kill all of the Seanchan army (with its invincible 50 million man army and million suldam) without hurting anyone I'd think it was a great idea. Why wouldn't I want these unapologetic Nazis dead? If it was use them as cannon fodder then maybe. But instead they're suddenly portrayed like the Rohirrim and we re supposed to like these people. I got to be honest I really despised them and everything about them. I don't know what RJ was trying to accomplish with this faction but he really failed. Why do I want to root for people who are as much a threat to Randland (Aviendha's vision) as the Darkness? I want them gone as much as the Trollocs.

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Matt doesn't really hate. Or overthink much.

Matt having a laid back attitude over this issue coincides with a shift where we have to see the Seanchan as potential allies to this issue gets really trivialised. I mean it's horrible what happens to Egwene in book 2 and I didn't like how the Seamchan are allowed to continue doing that as if it isn't a big deal.

 

As soon as they become potential allies all the negative aspects of the Seanchan become muted and less focused whilst we have the "positives" beaten over our heads. We re supposed to see them as this cool powerful empire a bit like how people like playing Nazis in Company of Heroes. You don't make a big deal of the obvious bad things they do.

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That's not the same as mat not hating them. You mean the author changed them from the big bad to potential allies. The author didn't hate them.

 

Every society dealt with their fear of aes Sedai and their memories of the breaking of the world differently. Some were very extreme, like the white cloaks, or like the way some aes Sedai who sought out men for gentling and nearly inevitable death.

 

My opinion of the seanchan didn't really change when the author wanted it to, I believe, but I think I understand where he was going with it. Sometimes the enemy of my enemy is my friend, at least for while. Maybe after the last battle he would have written in a Cold War. Maybe RJ didn't really hate anyone either, or at least tried to see the good in them.

Edited by Mrs. Cindy Gill
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Rand's amd Mat's attitude are shaped by the Seanchan are needed.  It's not that other people don't see it as a big deal, it's just there was no time to do anything about it.  Does Rand waste his strength fighting the Seanchan?  Rand tried to get them to release any daman caught but Tuon called his bluff. He knew in order to win he had to have them on his side.  I do agree they were made out to be way too powerful.  My biggest issue was the whole OMG Suddam can channel, this going to rock the empire.  Then when known sort of became so no big deal.  Also was shocked rand never brought up men who can channel to Tuon and demanding they be allowed to go to the black tower.

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That's not the same as mat not hating them. You mean the author changed them from the big bad to potential allies. The author didn't hate them.

 

Every society dealt with their fear of aes Sedai and their memories of the breaking of the world differently. Some were very extreme, like the white cloaks, or like the way some aes Sedai who sought out men for gentling and nearly inevitable death.

 

My opinion of the seanchan didn't really change when the author wanted it to, I believe, but I think I understand where he was going with it. Sometimes the enemy of my enemy is my friend, at least for while. Maybe after the last battle he would have written in a Cold War. Maybe RJ didn't really hate anyone either, or at least tried to see the good in them.

 

Absolutely, Cindy!

 

WOT1402: Screenwriter Aaron Sorkin says that he "always tries to write his characters as if they are making their case to God why he should allow them into heaven". Most everyone doesn't see him/herself as evil. They believe in what they're doing just like the Aes Sedai do. They may be mistaken, but I believe Sorkin, RJ, and Mat believe that people, human beings, are ultimately and fundamentally good, not evil. He doesn't hate his characters and I doubt RJ did either. As a wannabe writer,  I can tell you that that is absolutely the case for me.

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Well it's a poor case she makes.

 

Think about how her society justifies what it does? They believe that ALL potential channellers, irrespective of if they use the power, are automatically evil and subhuman. They believe channeling must be directed by normal humans with conscience because channellers are automatically evil subhumans.

 

Now, this isn't like Dragonage where you can kind of see the argument that possessed mages are a threat. So their view is implicitly wrong, normal humans are as likely to be corrupted by the Dark One. There's also a colossal amount of hypocrisy in being fearful of channellers who broke the world yet believing it's just to turn them into weapons for the state or even personal ambition. The Seanchan use the power to kill far more people than all the rogue channellers and false dragons put together many times over. Basically in Dragonage there's more of a real moral dilemma whereas with the Seanchan they are obviously just doing it to use the channellers as weapons for their colonialist ambitions.

 

Which is fine as long as the Seanchan don't come into contact with anything that challenges these stupid self serving assumptions. Firstly, they see lots of channellers who are clearly not evil and even groups who are incapable by oath of harming another. Let's assume they bury their heads. They then find out, as does Tuon, that all the Suldam are channellers. She makes the argument that "oh but I don't use the power". Which is bull because:

 

A) the Seanchan indiscriminately round up all potential channellers irrespective of if they use the power.

 

B) The Seanchan believe all channellers are subhuman.

 

So logically, Tuon should know that she is a filthy channeler who is a danger to everyone around her. Unless she's just going to bury her head and decide to not tell anyone and continue senseless enslavement and cruelty for reasons she herself believes don't apply to her. If she believes that channeling itself is evil then she shouldn't be using Damane at all, the Seanchan hate channellers because they are subhuman and evil. Tuon completely twisting things to suit herself.

 

So it's a terrible case to make and full of holes and blatant self serving bull. This woman is trying to justify an atrocity on grounds she knows don't make sense. So Matt just accepts that rubbish at face value and doesn't call her out on it.

 

This would be fine if Tuon changed her mind later in the series. But she doesn't. So I just don't see how she could be viewed with anything other than contempt. I really don't see how Tuon could believe what she was saying without being a two faced hypocrite and a liar.

Edited by WOT1402
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Its all Tuon and the Seanchan know.  Luthair arrived to Seanchan to channelers freely using the power, lying, backstabbing, changing sides, and trying to vie for power.  So the distrust and hatred for channelers have been passed down in their society.  It's al lthey know.  Their attitude is very white cloak. if an Aes Sedai does something nice it must be because they are up to something etc..  This is what they have been taught from birth. 

 

I do admit everyone takes the fact Suldam can learn to channel a bit too calm instead of the earth shattering news it should be. 

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Aviendha's visions in the glass columns; those I took to be what could happen, not what will happen.

the future I take changed when the Aiel were added to the Dragon's Peace.

 

the Seanchan are likely to change through Mat; especially if he is still taveren.

or if not through Mat, maybe from watching main continent channelers. and/or maybe from learning that suldam are learners.

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That's not the same as mat not hating them. You mean the author changed them from the big bad to potential allies. The author didn't hate them.

 

Every society dealt with their fear of aes Sedai and their memories of the breaking of the world differently. Some were very extreme, like the white cloaks, or like the way some aes Sedai who sought out men for gentling and nearly inevitable death.

 

My opinion of the seanchan didn't really change when the author wanted it to, I believe, but I think I understand where he was going with it. Sometimes the enemy of my enemy is my friend, at least for while. Maybe after the last battle he would have written in a Cold War. Maybe RJ didn't really hate anyone either, or at least tried to see the good in them.

We also have Mat being very guarded about his capabilities at war, with Aludra and the Dragons, and both he and Tuon at odds with one another mentally thinking that they are enemies of each other, so there is that.  Even that was a bit muted.  I know we had the Finn's revelation to Mat about the Daughter of the Nine Moons, and Tuon getting a foretelling from her damane warning her about "he who will carry her away" and "he who will set her free."  Both play a cat and mouse game and I am surprised that Tuon was so trusting to the foretelling and didn't try to get away or turn his followers against him, living up to her word.  From what I saw, Mat's info from the Finns kind of just hung over his head as fate that he couldn't escape.  She was entirely opposite of everything that he liked in a woman, and she won him over in the end with her wit and intellect.  She still thinks of him as a knave, which I think is funny.

 

True, the slavery kind of gets downplayed, but we do see more of an inside look into their culture.  They are portrayed as less the "bad guy" than Egwene and the girls see them as, as both Rand and Mat witness their fair treatment of the tinkers and their willingness to allow people to maintain their customs, if they pay a tax and impose a few additional rules pertaining to duels in Ebou Dar.  It is remarked a few times that the only downside of the Seanchan is experienced if one happens to be able to touch the OP in some fashion.  It is witnessed that the Seanchan justice falls on the low as well as the high and mighty, locals, as well as their own people that break the law.

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Honestly i don't see much i nthe way of justice with the Seanchan.  In many ways they are like the Whitecloaks where if say a seeker/Questioner denounces you, then you are presumed guilty.  True no one above the law, but in some ways they have to live in state of paranoia in that the slightest little thing could get one in trouble. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

I mean everything wrong with the Senachan just get beautifully summed up when Tuon learns how her whole culture is a pathetic and stupid lie and she simply says "I don't care". This is a heroine we re supposed to want Matt to get with to help save te world but she says that? Yoire really telling me that Matt puts up with that? Why does Matt suddenly not have a conscience and treat slavery and torture as some sort of benign act? Put up with a rank hypocrite because he doesn't want to offend her? These people enslaved and tortured his friends. If I met the people who did that and they were as utterly unrepentant and self righteous I don't see how any sane person could not hate them for that.

 

I mean Matt acts like he just doesn't hear what Tuon is saying. He makes light of her clai that Aes Sedai are dangerous by saying "oh they can be haughty and annoying". That's an incredibly mild reaction to a woman who thinks an entire group of people (of which she is one!!!) are subhuman scum. This woman is a complete and unapologetic until the end monster. Nothing about her or her people are sympathetic. They have murdered tens of thousands of people in their wars of conquest because they believe they have a birthright from some warlord who conquered the world for his own ego. Again, is Matt really going to sympathise with that. Cause a massive war that brings misery and suffering just for your birthright and aggrandisement?

 

I mean even in general. What do the Seanchan do to make me as a reader think that Rand killing all of them isn't a good idea? I mean we know that they'll exterminate the Aiel and enslave all of the other Kingdoms in the future. We are told that they will destroy this world we want to see saved. The only reason I though any of that was bad was because collateral damage and Rand losing his soul. If he could kill all of the Seanchan army (with its invincible 50 million man army and million suldam) without hurting anyone I'd think it was a great idea. Why wouldn't I want these unapologetic Nazis dead? If it was use them as cannon fodder then maybe. But instead they're suddenly portrayed like the Rohirrim and we re supposed to like these people. I got to be honest I really despised them and everything about them. I don't know what RJ was trying to accomplish with this faction but he really failed. Why do I want to root for people who are as much a threat to Randland (Aviendha's vision) as the Darkness? I want them gone as much as the Trollocs.

 So, you hate all people from Africa, India, Turkey, etc. etc. that continue to own slaves to this very day? Or, do you basically ignore that slavery is very alive and a part of this world and choose to do nothing about it and not condemn and sanction all those countries who have slavery existent?

 

 I mean, clearly if you were as upset about such things as you type out to be, you would be waging a personal war against these countries and their ideals.

 

India has 18 million modern slaves—at least five times more than any other country in the world Edited by flinn
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