The Wheel of Time Will Be Adapted as a TV Series

[Werthead]

To be fair, they could probably make the first 5 books last 1 season each.

 

Later books, like 6,7,8/ 9,10,11/ 12,13,14 could all be one season each.

 

 

That's still 12 seasons, which will not happen.

 

Bad at Math?

That's 8 Seasons.

6-8 = 1 season

9-11 = 1 Season

12-14 = 1 Season

3 Seasons

+ first 5

= 8 Seasons, not 12.

 

The way you wrote it looked like Books 1-5 = 5 seasons, then a season each for 6, 7, 8/9, 10, 11/12, 13, 14. Your formatting didn't translate well (although I should have realised something was up, as Book 10 certainly would never make for a season by itself!).

 

People get this idea stuck in their heads that some books have to be multiple seasons, or require 1 season per book.

 

The books represent useful story beat points, which work for television as they do for prose. It starts breaking down around Book 6, and then collapses altogether around Book 8 (at which point even RJ struggled to make each book work as a cohesive entity in its own right, and then gave up), but certainly for the earlier books maintaining a season/book relationship is useful. Later on you can go to town on mixing things up.

 

I've proposed either a simple 2:1 ration (seven seasons, 2 books per season) or an even more ambitious 6 season structure which is 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8/9, 10/11/12 and 13/14. Both require 16-episode seasons to be even remotely viable though. Any less than that and it's time to pull out the scissors and start cutting even more radically than will be required for this structure.

 

All the battle descriptions. All the dress, and hair pulling can all be described on screen in seconds over hours.

 

People said this for Lord of the Rings and they said it for ASoIaF and it never, ever works out like this. The time you save in description you lost again in characterisation (externalising their internal development), exposition and action. Lord of the Rings is far more description-heavy than WoT and it still took an absolute immense amount of time, even when Tolkien spent 3 pages on a description of the Misty Mountains that Jackson solved with an 8-second camera pan.

 

We aren't even getting into the idea, that they could craft the seasons to not follow the books on a 1:1 basis, but actually follow the timeline which gets shifted a bit in the later books...

 

That will certainly be necessary for at least 12 and 13, otherwise the story will stop making sense.

[SinisterDeath]

 

 

People said this for Lord of the Rings and they said it for ASoIaF and it never, ever works out like this. The time you save in description you lost again in characterisation (externalising their internal development), exposition and action. Lord of the Rings is far more description-heavy than WoT and it still took an absolute immense amount of time, even when Tolkien spent 3 pages on a description of the Misty Mountains that Jackson solved with an 8-second camera pan.

You're also talking about a studio/director that turned the Hobbit into 3 movies. So LOTR isn't really a great example. They were just milking that shit. (And some of those pans, went on for 20 seconds, or the showed those pans multiple times like it were landscape-porn)

 

I'd have to say ASoIaF is far more dialogue heavy then WoT and LoTR. (probably not combined) but I do think WoT makes up for lack of Dialogue for internal monologue... which is going to be difficult to convey on the small screen.

[Werthead]

You're also talking about a studio/director that turned the Hobbit into 3 movies.

 

In Jackson's defence, it does appear that he was forced to do this at gunpoint by the studio, who wanted to make as much money as possible. Apparently, after Del Toro walked rather than comply, Jackson suggested he could do the same and the studio said that was fine as they had a bunch of other directors lined up. Zach Snyder's name was thrown around (possibly a little implausibly, as he was already attached to the WB DC movies). Jackson decided to do the project rather than risk something else screwing it up.

 

That doesn't excuse a lot of the BS he pulled with CG Super Legolas and the pointless long battle with Smaug at the end of the second movie, but I do have some sympathy for the problems he was under.

[dexterryu]

This conversation is starting to make me think of when Juilin was going to "question" Ronde Macura with some salt and cooking oil. Point being is that we are making up problems and solutions that may or may not exist.

 

There have been countless books turned movies\TV series with different degrees of success. I don't think the length of novels would become an issue until book 6 when the series takes a shift away from action and world burning to political maneuvering. The first 5 novels translate to the screen very well. Of the roughly 3 years that the novels focus on, two of them are covered in books 1-6 and the 3rd year is covered in 7-14. That's a big difference and it's also where the series slows down significantly.

 

If the series goes that long, 7-14 is where cuts could and should be made. There are several plotlines that could be cut in the books and not much would have been lost. Some examples: Rand vs Seanchan in PoD. Shaido after Dumai's Wells, Faile's capture/rescue plotline (instead Perrin could simply deal with Masema). Some that could be significantly truncated: Egwene vs Lelaine/Romanda, Mat & Tuon circus travels, Elayne's consolidation of Andor.

 

These things are all good for a novel since they add complexity and nuance (which a novel needs), but can bog down a tv series where you need to produce sets, pay actors and crews, and keep an audience interested enough to maintain ratings.

[szilard]

I don't think the length of novels would become an issue until book 6 when the series takes a shift away from action and world burning to political maneuvering. The first 5 novels translate to the screen very well.

 

You are just kidding, right?

 

Just read a conversations about Olver etc. on other sites. For Rand's sake, there will be no Olver! (Even if the series gets there at all.) There is no time for such a little character.

 

The books are very long, the cast is enormous. I'm not even sure that the Big Six will be Big Six, or they will use only Big Four!

 

Characters need screen time, and totally meaningless giving them max 4-5 minutes per episode per Kopf.

 

They will/should cut down the books into barebones.

[Occams whiskey bottle]

I still wonder if they might make it a story about Egwene and Rand. Their storylines tend to mirror one another.

[szilard]

I still wonder if they might make it a story about Egwene and Rand. Their storylines tend to mirror one another.

 

This would be a very interesting approach, but most readers see the whole story as Rand's story. They could put him on a bench, but wouldn't it cause a backlash? I'm all for balancing the screen time for our heroes, but Rand dominates the first books.

Edited November 3, 2016 by szilard

[dexterryu]

 

I still wonder if they might make it a story about Egwene and Rand. Their storylines tend to mirror one another.

 

This would be a very interesting approach, but most readers see the whole story as Rand's story. They could put him on a bench, but wouldn't it cause a backlash? I'm all for balancing the screen time for our heroes, but Rand dominates the first books.

 

 

I think this is done for the sake of the reader as much as anything. The scope, complexity, and density of the world/politics/history are a lot to take in at first. The way EoTW is done from a single perspective (mostly) and the perspectives of characters from a very isolated part of the world allows for the reader to discover the world along with and through the characters. Then expanding PoVs to the greater cast as the reader gains familiarity.

 

I think doing differently in a show would be a mistake. Remember, a big part of the tension in the EoTW was that the characters had a great distrust for Moiriane and her behavior in many ways caused the reader to empathize with them. While the reader (and the characters) know that she is a "good guy" there is enough there to have doubts about her motives.

 

In my opinion the show should follow this recipe of starting out focusing on just a few characters and then widening scope organically as the show grows.

[Werthead]

I still wonder if they might make it a story about Egwene and Rand. Their storylines tend to mirror one another.

 

Thematically, this reinforces the principle male/female dynamic of the books. The first book sets us up to think that the main characters are Rand/Mat/Perrin and Egwene/Nynaeve are support, but when you step back and look at the whole story then it is really Rand and Egwene's stories, with Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve and Elayne as the secondary main characters. RJ plays a bit of bait-and-switch with the reader there. Whether that's because he didn't envisage Egwene being so crucial at the start or he deliberately planned to switch things around, but I think taking the approach of Rand and Egwene being the main POV characters from the start is valid.

 

You would have to consider some restructuring though. There's long periods in the second half of the series where Rand is doing absolutely nothing of interest (Far Madding was, rather blatantly, late-developed filler material just to give Rand something to do) and there's quite a few periods in the first half where Egwene is off-page doing training montages with the Aes Sedai, Moiraine and the Aiel Wise Ones. You'd have to equalise things a bit.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Werthead

[Occams whiskey bottle]

 

I still wonder if they might make it a story about Egwene and Rand. Their storylines tend to mirror one another.

 

Thematically, this reinforces the principle male/female dynamic of the books. The first book sets us up to think that the main characters are Rand/Mat/Perrin and Egwene/Nynaeve are support, but when you step back and look at the whole story then it is really Rand and Egwene's stories, with Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve and Elayne as the secondary main characters. RJ plays a bit of bait-and-switch with the reader there. Whether that's because he didn't envisage Egwene being so crucial at the start or he deliberately planned to switch things around, but I think taking the approach of Rand and Egwene being the main POV characters from the start is valid.

 

You would have to consider some restructuring though. There's long periods in the second half of the series where Rand is doing absolutely nothing of interest (Far Madding was, rather blatantly, late-developed filler material just to give Rand something to do) and there's quite a few periods in the first half where Egwene is off-page doing training montages with the Aes Sedai, Moiraine and the Aiel Wise Ones. You'd have to equalise things a bit.

 

 

 

 

The restructuring of the storylines would eliminate much of the fat that was included in the second half of the books due to Rand, Perrin, and Mat getting to their end games sooner than the others. You can still have Perrin and Mat be important characters, but the main focus just being on Egwene and Rand.

[szilard]

I think this is done for the sake of the reader as much as anything. The scope, complexity, and density of the world/politics/history are a lot to take in at first. The way EoTW is done from a single perspective (mostly) and the perspectives of characters from a very isolated part of the world allows for the reader to discover the world along with and through the characters. Then expanding PoVs to the greater cast as the reader gains familiarity.

 

But this single perspective barely belongs to Rand. We get the bare minimum from Rand (in tEotW), it's mostly just 'description'.

 

In my opinion the show should follow this recipe of starting out focusing on just a few characters and then widening scope organically as the show grows.

 

They have to follow this route, because the books are written this way

[dexterryu]

 

I think this is done for the sake of the reader as much as anything. The scope, complexity, and density of the world/politics/history are a lot to take in at first. The way EoTW is done from a single perspective (mostly) and the perspectives of characters from a very isolated part of the world allows for the reader to discover the world along with and through the characters. Then expanding PoVs to the greater cast as the reader gains familiarity.

 

But this single perspective barely belongs to Rand. We get the bare minimum from Rand (in tEotW), it's mostly just 'description'.

 

In my opinion the show should follow this recipe of starting out focusing on just a few characters and then widening scope organically as the show grows.

 

They have to follow this route, because the books are written this way

 

 

I suppose I should say that just like the first book, it should really be Rand focused. Meaning that he should be on screen 100% of the time until the group splits at Shadar Logoth. Rand's (and Perrin's) newness to the world outside of the TR is a great vehicle in the book for world and history dumps to bring the audience up to speed with him. This would also work to the same extent with all of the Emond's fielders in the group. 

[szilard]

IF they start with tEotW...

 

 

It would be really good getting some recent informations about the series. 6 months later, and  we don't know anything about it.

[Werthead]

They have to follow this route, because the books are written this way

 

They won't be adapting the books plot beat for plot beat though. If they did, we'd need 20+ seasons (of 20 episodes per season) and each episode would cost $20 million and there'd be over 2,000 speaking roles. Even a 2-books-per-season, 16-episodes-per-season TV show is going to have to dramatically cut things, probably starting around the midpoint of the series and going onwards. I can see there being maybe 5-6 Aes Sedai named characters of note in Egwene's camp rather than 20+, maybe only half a dozen named Asha'man ever showing up rather than dozens, one or two major nobles per faction versus dozens in the books and so on.

 

It would be really good getting some recent informations about the series. 6 months later, and  we don't know anything about it.

 

It is curious. My guess is that there was some kind of last-minute legal hitch. As far as I know the deal was done, but the company involved has chosen not to announce it yet. There may be issues getting writes/directors/produces of the calibre they need. I also get the impression they haven't gotten an excited, involved showrunner on board and they really need that to move forwards.

[Rednalloc]

 

It is curious. My guess is that there was some kind of last-minute legal hitch. As far as I know the deal was done, but the company involved has chosen not to announce it yet. There may be issues getting writes/directors/produces of the calibre they need. I also get the impression they haven't gotten an excited, involved showrunner on board and they really need that to move forwards.

 

 

 

Well, it's only been 6 months. Although we are all very excited about this and want more news there probably isn't much for them to say at this point. Some info on showrunner and writers would be nice and an indication of which direction they are going, as would info on which tv company is involved. It's possible some or all of these are yet to be decided and/or they are waiting for more to be done before making an announcement. That said, some life signs would be great to know the project hasn't just died...

[szilard]

 

They have to follow this route, because the books are written this way

 

They won't be adapting the books plot beat for plot beat though.

 

I did not say that. They should begin in small scale, just as dexterryu suggested. (Jordan said that he would content 4-6 hours screentime per book.)

 

---

 

My watches a few shows, and she finds them very talkative. She odten complains that there aren't any 'silent scenes', whre the protagonists do not talk all

the time. We really hope that writers will stick the nature of the books, and do not make a 'talking heads show' out of the series.

[szilard]

Well, it's only been 6 months. Although we are all very excited about this and want more news there probably isn't much for them to say at this point. Some info on showrunner and writers would be nice and an indication of which direction they are going, as would info on which tv company is involved. It's possible some or all of these are yet to be decided and/or they are waiting for more to be done before making an announcement. That said, some life signs would be great to know the project hasn't just died...

 

Maybe they got a better offer, and right now they are trying to free themselves from the former contract.

[Werthead]

Well, it's only been 6 months. Although we are all very excited about this and want more news there probably isn't much for them to say at this point. Some info on showrunner and writers would be nice and an indication of which direction they are going, as would info on which tv company is involved. It's possible some or all of these are yet to be decided and/or they are waiting for more to be done before making an announcement. That said, some life signs would be great to know the project hasn't just died...

 

Sure, but there's no reason the company involved couldn't identify itself, unless there was a corporate need not to. They might also be trying to identify a time they can make the announcement for maximum impact.

 

Maybe they got a better offer, and right now they are trying to free themselves from the former contract.

 

Allegedly the rights sale was worth north of $10 million. I consider it unlikely that another production company would sweep in and try to outbid them after the fact, and there'd be contractual clauses preventing that.

[szilard]

Allegedly the rights sale was worth north of $10 million. I consider it unlikely that another production company would sweep in and try to outbid them after the fact, and there'd be contractual clauses preventing that.

 

If there was any sale at all... 

 

And, after the whole Red Eagle Entertainment "thing", I think it is better that way (another hoax; #welaughedtogether.)

[dexterryu]

 

 

They have to follow this route, because the books are written this way

 

They won't be adapting the books plot beat for plot beat though.

 

I did not say that. They should begin in small scale, just as dexterryu suggested. (Jordan said that he would content 4-6 hours screentime per book.)

 

---

 

My watches a few shows, and she finds them very talkative. She odten complains that there aren't any 'silent scenes', whre the protagonists do not talk all

the time. We really hope that writers will stick the nature of the books, and do not make a 'talking heads show' out of the series.

 

 

I agree with your wife, in particular once they get to Lord of Chaos. A lot of the politics can and should be streamlined... some examples:

 

1) Egwene and the rebel AS internal politics with the Lelaine/Romanda stuff. Went on far too long and could be done over 1-2 episodes of side plot.

2) Rand vs the nobles in Tear, then Cairhien, then Andor... I know the game of houses is a big part of the series but there would have to be more concise ways to portray on TV.

3) Elayne regaining the throne. I get that she wanted to do things the right way, however it was boring as hell and Rand was gone for only a few weeks when she got there. He left his people in charge and it was well known that he meant for the throne to be hers.

4) The sea folk negotiations

 

Other things to keep in mind in terms of pace and timeline. The first 6 books took 2 years. The last 7 took under 6 months. Much of that time is detailing out the politics of the 4 things I mentioned. If they kept the plotlines focused on the major events of each book then you could have a much shorter series. 

 

My preference at this point would be to take a similar approach to what AMC does with Walking Dead, which is two 8 episode arcs per "season". Each 1/2 season could cover a book in most cases with a few exceptions. TSR would probably need a whole season to do well. Conversely parts of Lords of Chaos+Crown of Swords overlap as do Winters Heart +Crossroads of Twilight, and Gathering Storm/Towers of Midnight.

 

As an aside, even thinking about that makes me almost want to read a super-ebook of the entire series with a re-ordering of chapters. That would make the timeline flow better in the cases where the timelines of the book overlap and you get different perspective of events (not to mention the 2 Tam Al'Thor conundrum).

[szilard]

 A lot of the politics can and should be streamlined... some examples:

 

1) Egwene and the rebel AS internal politics with the Lelaine/Romanda stuff. Went on far too long and could be done over 1-2 episodes of side plot.

2) Rand vs the nobles in Tear, then Cairhien, then Andor... I know the game of houses is a big part of the series but there would have to be more concise ways to portray on TV.

3) Elayne regaining the throne. I get that she wanted to do things the right way, however it was boring as hell and Rand was gone for only a few weeks when she got there. He left his people in charge and it was well known that he meant for the throne to be hers.

4) The sea folk negotiations

 

As I've said before, even RJ had no problems with cutting (or even culling) the 'unnecessary' parts out. Not to mention that the audience cannot separate them apart. Even readers have hard times with these plotlines.

 

The main problem with El (and with Eg too), that she must do boring things like that, securing a throne is usually not a very exciting process. RJ could not have pulled 'a Rand' everytime (see also the relationship between Mat and T), because in real life nothing is that easy.

 

I fear that we won't see the SF on the screen.

 

But while I accept that tv is a different media, it will be hard to digest the whole 'WOT in the name only' aspect. There will be no vast cast, so many plotlines etc.

 

Unfortunately, many people don't see anything during reading (except a few blurry things), so that's why I stand for an adaptation, plus the books will get new readers.

 

 

Other things to keep in mind in terms of pace and timeline. The first 6 books took 2 years. The last 7 took under 6 months. Much of that time is detailing out the politics of the 4 things I mentioned. If they kept the plotlines focused on the major events of each book then you could have a much shorter series.

 

Agree.

 

 

As an aside, even thinking about that makes me almost want to read a super-ebook of the entire series with a re-ordering of chapters. That would make the timeline flow better in the cases where the timelines of the book overlap and you get different perspective of events

 

iirc, there was an attempt for that a decade ago, and fans of ASOIAF did the same.

Edited November 19, 2016 by szilard

[Occams whiskey bottle]

 Fans need to accept that the show needs to appeal to a new audience to justify the amount of money they will be pouring into it. That will drive changes and omissions to plot lines. The show will be a separate animal from the books and will need to be if you want to see the show to a conclusion...assuming that it actually gets made someday.  

 

It will be interesting to see which direction they take the Wheel of Time though. They could either make it a darker version of WoT like Game of Thrones or a lighter version like Shannara or Magicians. Personally, I would like to see a darker version. When the Mydrahl and the Trollics show up I want it to be more like a horror show not necessarily gory but definitely suspenseful. I want the Foresaken to actually have some teeth and feel the danger that they pose every time they are shown on the screen. If they can capture that then in my opinion they will have a winner. 

[dexterryu]

 

 A lot of the politics can and should be streamlined... some examples:

 

1) Egwene and the rebel AS internal politics with the Lelaine/Romanda stuff. Went on far too long and could be done over 1-2 episodes of side plot.

2) Rand vs the nobles in Tear, then Cairhien, then Andor... I know the game of houses is a big part of the series but there would have to be more concise ways to portray on TV.

3) Elayne regaining the throne. I get that she wanted to do things the right way, however it was boring as hell and Rand was gone for only a few weeks when she got there. He left his people in charge and it was well known that he meant for the throne to be hers.

4) The sea folk negotiations

 

As I've said before, even RJ had no problems with cutting (or even culling) the 'unnecessary' parts out. Not to mention that the audience cannot separate them apart. Even readers have hard times with these plotlines.

 

The main problem with El (and with Eg too), that she must do boring things like that, securing a throne is usually not a very exciting process. RJ could not have pulled 'a Rand' everytime (see also the relationship between Mat and T), because in real life nothing is that easy.

 

I fear that we won't see the SF on the screen.

 

But while I accept that tv is a different media, it will be hard to digest the whole 'WOT in the name only' aspect. There will be no vast cast, so many plotlines etc.

 

Unfortunately, many people don't see anything during reading (except a few blurry things), so that's why I stand for an adaptation, plus the books will get new readers.

 

For the things with Elayne and Egwene... it's not that those things are uninteresting. It's just that they drag on for far too long and are repetitive within themselves. I didn't mind them so much in the novels (although those parts are far from my favorite) because when I'm reading a novel the extra nuance can be good. In a series, they wouldn't need to be completely omitted but just a side plot for a couple of episodes while other interesting things are happening.

 

I'll also say that those plot-lines drove me nuts when I was reading the books as they were released because they kept me away from the events and conclusions that I found more interesting in that sometimes those events weren't covered in the book and I'd have to wait 2 years for the next book. In a re-read where the waiting isn't an issue it's not as big of a deal.

 

I'm also with you on Matt/Tuon. That dragged on a bit. So did Faile's time being a Shaido prisoner. Again, those things aren't uninteresting as much as they moved slowly.

[Graendals favourite]

Should take a practical approach on what drags or what not. We can't have all we want. It's probably very unprofecional, but I think there's an absolute skeleton of what needs be there, and as we go on, we can choose which we can have on full, which not. That would be just entrepreneurial way to take it. I would like every thing, but am happy with anything.

[Graendals favourite]

Oh, and the penises, lets make this adult or not at all.

 

 

Not that, I already said many times, not porn, that's not what it is, just adult, it will have people thinking, and so have the penises. Not exactly European cinema history, but anyone who knows film will know I mean what I mean and will know what I don't mean.