[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

[Cass]

Should have also added - during the re-read I'm doing, I'm noticing Kiv (like DPR and a couple of others), often doesn't answer all the questions directed his way. Kiv answers some of them - so well that you can't help but consider they might be true - and then skillfully leads the discussion around or away from other things, in ways that make them seem as if they didn't even matter to the case/game at hand. I'm pretty sure that would be deliberate, the thing I can't decide is whether he does exactly that in every game no matter what he rands, or if it's significant in this game.

[Hallia]

Got up to 32 before bed.

 

 

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  On 11/11/2014 at 4:08 PM, Despothera said:

 

  On 11/11/2014 at 3:29 PM, DreadPirateRoberts said:

 

  On 11/11/2014 at 2:32 PM, Despothera said:

I don't deny that I tunnel people, but if I'm tunneling scum, it's good for town, and likewise scum would rather dismiss my suspicions as the ramblings of a crazy tunneler

DPR evading my questioning is noted btw.

 
Your first sentence reads to me as "I don't deny that I do what I feel like at the time, but when it works it works and the people that it doesn't work for are going to complain about it." It does not speak of team play, but rather of personal motivation and IMO, offers a scant chance of success at best (especially D1) and a ton of confusion for the town to sort through at worst. 
 
And it's already been noted because I noted it.

 

 
 You could say I play selfishly, I suppose. Others have said similar in the past. I DO like going for the "big" play a lot, but I AM always trying to help my team win, not just look cool or something. And I don't tunnel on purpose or for the sake of tunneling- it just happens. I'm a very singularly minded mafia player, and don't want to let go of something when I think I've found something significant.
 

  On 11/11/2014 at 3:29 PM, DreadPirateRoberts said:

 

  On 11/11/2014 at 2:35 PM, Despothera said:

Holy crap Kivam can quote!



Also, "defending/not defending" argument is boring imo. So very tomato/tomato (what? You say tomayto/tomahto, I say tomato/tomato)

 
Also, telling everyone that you don't deny using a controversial technique (see tunneling quote above) but then dismissing another player's suggestion of basic logic as boring is just not townish.
 
In the last few hours I've twice called you out for attempting to shame players. Can you explain why you are doing this, especially on D1?

 

 
Firstly, I didn't think tunneling was a "controversial technique" and as I explained above I don't tunnel intentionally.
 
Secondly and this is kind of important- I wasn't dismissing what Kivam was saying. If anything, I think Verbal's post about what him doing not constituting actual defense of Thane was dumb. Defending is defending imo, whether it's hard defense, soft defense, chainsaw defense, whatever. Verb speaking on Thane's behalf WAS defense in my book. So I would support Kivam in that dispute. HOWEVER- I also think the argument is painful to go through: "You're defending" "Nuh uh! I didn't ______ so that means I wasn't defending!" "Well you DID do _____ so you were defending" "Nuh uh! Defending is only when blah blah blah". Hence, me saying the argument is boring.
 
And lastly, and this is the most important part here so I'll emphasize it-
 
Why are you just making shit up to try and make it seem like I'm a shitty person??? I didn't shame Dice, you said I did and I asked you to show me where I did (you didn't comply). Now you're saying I was shaming Kivam when I CLEARLY WASN'T, and in fact was JUST talking about how players should show him more respect instead of dismissing his thoughts and opinions. So that's TWICE now you have completely mischaracterized me in order to... what? Sadly, our history together makes me have to determine if you're scum trying to misrep me to try and get me lynched at some point, or if you're just being an awful human being who likes to pretend that I'm the boogeyman or something.
 
So answer me clearly here DPR. Are you mature enough to be able to put aside any outside the game elements between us, and play a civilized game here? If not, let me know now.
 

  On 11/11/2014 at 3:29 PM, DreadPirateRoberts said:

 

  On 11/11/2014 at 2:35 PM, Yates. said:

I'd like to put this "let's not cheat" post to bed by pointing out the logic implied by Des's summation here:

  On 11/11/2014 at 7:43 AM, Despothera said:

Look at the whole #Alliance thing. If one of that group rolls scum, you think they'll back down from forming a "town" power core with the other members of it who are actually town? Hell to the nah. They'll act like they're ready to #alliance it up just like normal.

Des basically just stated why me saying up front that we can't play that way is a Town null tell. If I'm scum? Why not abuse it since I *DIDN'T* get a chance to say it pregame? I gain nothing as scum pointing this out and instead make myself a huge suspect - at least in AJ and Dice's eyes. So there is zero scum motivation for making this post.

My Town personal motivation is obviously because I actually care about the integrity of the game. Which was my stated motivation in my original post.  Okay?  Good?  Good.

 

 
This post concerns me a great deal. Yates, you are an experienced player (who is not afraid to go for a big play on D1) and in that light, anything you say can be read into as a play. You know this as well as the others who have commented on it. In that light, it bugs me that you decided to make your 3 Amigos post before anyone asked - it wasn't a thing before you made it a thing, and that speaks of play-building. You throw in a Seer claim on top of that and then in the post directly above try to explain how we should take that as null tell, your argument being that you have no motivation to claim Seer as mafia. This strikes me as misdirection.
 
The feast that Des chimed in with his explanation of "Seer Cover" can be taken as support of a teammate, as can his soothing "nothing to see here" post below.

 

Again I don't really understand what you're trying to say here DPR. So you think me and Yates are mafia together? Even tho I have been doing anything BUT trying to defend him this game???
 

 

  On 11/11/2014 at 3:29 PM, DreadPirateRoberts said:

 

  On 11/11/2014 at 2:38 PM, Despothera said:

The only caveat here is that you COULD be scum and ALSO value the "integrity" of the "Three Amigos/soulread with Dice" thing, and wanted to preempt AJ and Dice being able to use that against you.

 
As stated above, this reads to me like more cover of the "cover". No one is really sweating Yates, so why all the dancing?

 

What? I WAS TRYING TO SWEAT YATES HERE. Why are you trying to act like I was defending him???

 

 

 

 

I'm surprised if someone thinks Des is scum after all of the Des on Yates action that I've seen so far (Brown chicken brown cowww)

 

Because he's lock clear to me.

 

  On 11/11/2014 at 4:31 PM, Krakalakachkn said:

@Nyn

What are your thoughts so far?


I'm at work and need someone to broad stroke it for me.

 

I giggled.

[Cass]

Since we're talking about Kiv and I promised earlier I had thoughts brewing on Kiv and DPR, here they are. (Nyn  - the verbarm thing is coming, changed note-taking systems (heh) just have to tidy it up a bit).

 

Darthe is right (thanks for that addition) - nobody else really got in on the debate after DPR suggested I was being coached/over-mentored/pupeteered/used. All that really happened was DPR suggested I was working as if I wasn't on my own, Kivam rationalised the argument, hints that him and DPR are Town, then ends it with a warning to everyone that I could/would kick your ass, Des got 'offended' and Yates and Nyn added 'non-committal' affirmations to the arguments of Kiv and DPR (which, in effect only served to heighten the suspicion and the 'she might be wolfy' vibe). 

 

This post was initially going to be raising concerns about the link/interaction specifically between DPR and Kiv on the matter, but now I found the quote and it includes both Yates and Nyn?

 

I find it really strange that the only people running with that are the people I have high up on my list o' sus. And Des, as I've already mentioned, since my re-read is getting right on up there too.

 

A collective effort at "Flatter the newbie, Freak out the Town?" Is that what was going on here? (And yes , I may have been slightly more blind to that til my review).  

 

 

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Yes, there's a lot of italics, bold and underlining (and if they work, colours red and green). I'm substituting formatting for words :P. Bold red underline = Town-scaring, Bold and green = Buddying up the noob. 

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:12 PM, Kivam said:

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 5:44 PM, Nynaeve said:

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 5:39 PM, Yates. said:

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 5:32 PM, Nynaeve said:

I really don't see what's the big deal about DPR proposing the option that a newbie might be being coached. It's a valid possibility. And it's not an insult at all. It's a viable strategy.

I would agree with you if he was accusing her of being coached. He didn't accuse her of simply being coached. He said her scum team was writing her posts for her. He literally called her a "puppet" at one point. I'm keenly aware of this because he accused ME of authoring her posts.

 

 

Same diff. Again, Dawn got accused of the same when she was on my scum team. They said she didn't sound like herself. Using big words and such. And some were wondering if someone was feeding her posts. It's not a slight, imo. It's thinking outside the box. I could see how it would annoy her, if it weren't true. But beyond that *Shrugs*

 

I'm not saying I agree with DPR. While I AM getting a more experienced feel from her posts, it's possible she just has a very good mentor. 

 

I don't know, this just seems like an overreaction to me.

 

 

Or she's just very, very good.  I was writing posts like that in my first game, too, no mentor, no scum team (was town, popped Sirayn and a teammate D1, was very very proud ), just a natural facility for logic, argument, and writing. In fact, I'm willing to bet Cass has all of that in spades; if not, then unless both Dice and Yates are scum on a team with Cass, I would assume that at least one of the two of them would be wondering very vocally where she suddenly developed these new-found abilities.

 

I have no idea whether her content is accurate - I know it's not on me, and Wes is not playing at all out of character for him as either scum or town, so while he could be scum, I have literally no reason to think so at the moment.  But the idea that there's no way a new player could get to Cass' results on her own ... it just isn't true, as I know from experience.  It isn't common, but it happens. 

 

So ... she could be scum getting fed content from teammates, could be scum getting this content on her own, could be town getting fed content from a mentor or could be town getting this content on her own.  Since it's a null tell either way (coached/uncoached and puppeted/unpuppeted fit equally well as scum or town), I'm going to do her the honor of assuming that, town or scum, she's playing on talent, not puppetry or coaching. 

 

Suggest you all do the same, if only to save the egg on your faces when - if she's as good as I think she is, and can be - she's routinely kicking all of your asses in future games.
 

 

 

 

[csarmi]

  On 11/17/2014 at 4:38 AM, WWWwombat said:

I think Des appears very town!Des but I don't like how Salami and Des are disagreeing so much ITT.  Some of that is probably that they don't play the same at all, but they have a QT to talk on and inconsistency between hydra heads is scummy in general imo.  I once saw you attack/discredit your other hydra head as scum once.  I think it was Amega or someone who couldn't stop scumtelling to save his life.  Overall, wary town lean on Deslami.

The inconsistency is due to

 

1) us being very different

2) us being even more different than i thought. I know Des is town now and i actually tend to agree of whom he finds scummy (well i tended to when i was still caught up) but often not his reasons. I treat us more or less as a mason pair with a single vote.

3) not being able to talk/chat a lot. That's on me i guess - i am busy enough that i simply dont have the doing the rounds here and there too. Actually I'm not even caught up. We do discuss a few points but not much yet. Working on a PoE now. Advising Des on whether he is tunneling. Giving my snap impressions looking for townies.

4) Something of a concern for me is that lots of players knoq my meta quite well and none of them seems to point out the obvious.

[Cass]

  On 11/17/2014 at 7:13 AM, csarmi said:

4) Something of a concern for me is that lots of players knoq my meta quite well and none of them seems to point out the obvious.

Not knowing your meta - what is the 'obvious'?

[csarmi]

  On 11/17/2014 at 3:16 AM, Kivam said:

 

  On 11/16/2014 at 7:20 PM, csarmi said:

 

Yes he does. Only way the SK would holster here if they missed their night action. But actions can be sent in advance (before night starts) so...

Chances overlapping shots are high even with totally random shooting and then there is the RB/jail keep.

 

 

They can?

Yup. Pretty standard stuff (for Tommy anyway) with such short night deadlines. Note that he also randomizes seer peek if missed. Both are measures i really do like.

[csarmi]

  On 11/17/2014 at 7:25 AM, Cass said:

 

  On 11/17/2014 at 7:13 AM, csarmi said:

4) Something of a concern for me is that lots of players knoq my meta quite well and none of them seems to point out the obvious.

 

Not knowing your meta - what is the 'obvious'?

I wanna see if some people point it out. Check some town gamea of mine for more info.

[Cass]

@Csarm - I barely have time to keep up with this thread, my re-read and doing enough basics to keep my RL alive. I'll have to check your 'Town' game when this is done! 

 

Also, getting ready to go out to dinner, back later (hopefully with Verbarm/Nyn/Thane etc stuff) tonight. 

[csarmi]

  On 11/17/2014 at 4:26 AM, Darthe said:

So then you'd catch Kivam mainly late game by his direction and interpretation of the thread not matching up with what it should?  That doesn't quite fit what I see here.  Instead I see what I described as clinical, and will explain below.

 

Clinical is a term we use (sort of scathingly) in counseling psychology to describe when counselors are being detatched and analytical.  I've always connotatively thought of it as something that applies to when someone in mafia is trying to detach themselves from a scenario by hiding behind a veneer of professionalism or faux analytical persona.

 

I got that on him too. I think i called it reporting but your term is more accurate deacription of what i felt.

[csarmi]

Despo I think Darthe is town here.

[csarmi]

I don't remember getting the shifty vibes of him or the deliberate obfuscation he likws to make morw when he is acum. He is as straight as a Derf can be.

[hazelkrs1]

  On 11/17/2014 at 7:39 AM, csarmi said:

Despo I think Darthe is town here.

I agree. His pushes don't look opportunistic, they seem genuine. And he's paying attention to everything it seems, not cherrypicking snippets here and there.

[csarmi]

Yay.

 

Darthe

 

1 down, 14 to go

[Kivam]

OK guys, I'm going to be in meetings most of the day.  Might be able to check in before EOD but it's sketchy.  As far as I'm concerned, LAL comes into play here; Andrej suggested there was a rationale for the SK holstering, which either means he could think of one or that he was lying and trying to confuse the thread with "possibilities" he knows aren't actualities.  Considering: (a) that he was on the "don't talk about NKs" kick; and (b) he couldn't come up with a single rationale when called out, I'm convinced it's the latter - which means he needs to go, now. 

 

Make of that what you will, but given my time limitations today, it's unlikely my vote will be moving before deadline

[Barmacral]

Verb can do his own ISO when he shows up. my responses in blue in the spoiler.

 

  On 11/15/2014 at 7:04 PM, Nynaeve said:

Barm ISO

 

 

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OP: First to post… posting… first! Lol

 

Then there’s the one post of his that probably bugged me the most (along with Verbal’s general behavior) which made me mention several times that they’re giving me the bad juju. Which is him commenting about Leelou’s reaction to Salami calling her townie for saying ‘Sup’. She said it was a generic post of hers, ie null (I'd say even null to town). Which is completely correct. And Barm is like hmmm… weird that she’s defending herself against an accusation of being town. This is a complete misrepresentation. I know it’s easy to say this now that we know her flip…. But why on earth would this be a point of interest? A scum would happily accept being townread. A townie would be suspicious over someone giving them a town read over nonsense. Lee’s reaction, if anything, was a light town tell and I think Barm trying to point it out as if it’s off is iffy.

 

I answered this. Repeating myself isn't going to change the simple truth.

 

Leelou’s reply to Barm is “Not really, that shouldn't be judged as a townie or non townie post.” Again, correct. At this point Darthe jumps in saying this looks like guilty conscience. WHAAA?? Lol seriously? So Wombat points out Darthe’s post and asks Salami if it rustles his rigor jammies. Barm quotes Wombat and asks if it rustles HIS rigor jammies. 

 

I quite agree with you on Darthe here. One of the reasons I have found him scummy.

 

Later on in between Verbal and Yates discussion about the 3 amigos where Verbal keeps saying he rather not talk about it, as he continues talking about it…. Barm interjects and asks how exactly did that work last game where he was scum with Lee and me. I think this is an excellent point, actually.

 

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Then he drops a vote on Thane, saying he’s made only one contribution to the thread so far and all the rest was fluff. I don’t like this vote, really. Even for a D1 vote. It was only page 8 and what exactly did Barm or Verbal bring to the game for that matter? All Barm did was nudge Leelou about something that makes zero sense. That’s about it. I’m not even sure if I got all ‘serious’ by page 8. Overall lame reasoning and bad vote. Added to that… I will touch this later too but Barm later claims to have said this whole thing to beat the grass and didn't actually mean it. From what I can see, Darthe ate this up and jumped to back him up…… why then didn't he vote Darthe? He didn't seem to make any conclusions from his “Test” and ended up landing a vote on Thane. Missing the flow.

 

Bolded: Read above, you'll answer your own question, incredible how short your memory is here. Also if you didn't read the post in isolation you might have noticed that all other players who were active at that point were playing, where Thane alone was spamming. It isn't my contribution vs his, it is his contributions vs the entire game.

 

Arsis drops the vote on Verbal for posting memes when he’s scum. He reacts with LOL that makes no sense. Null I guess though seems a bit like….. I’m gonna lol at your vote but not actually engage you. I mean, why is this vote not making him think….mmmm… why would Arsis drop such a nonsocial vote?

 

So I'm now expected to lay out my entire thought process on thread as it happens? Your assumption that I am not thinking about these things because I don't spell it out for you is dumb.

 

Then Thane responds to the vote on him saying others were spamming too and some people haven’t even shown up and what exactly has Barm contributed so far? Excellent points. Barm claims Thane was the only one spamming… which I disagree with. I spammed here and there. Verbal did spam later on after his ‘serious’ entrance. Thane wasn’t the only one. And jeez, it was only page 8    Then Barm claims to have contributed a ton so far like questioning Wombat, Yates and voting for Thane. Looks like Barm is trying to inflate his contributions thus far. He asked Yates one question about the discworld game and that’s where that convo ended. And he asked Wombat if a post rustled his jimmies and that’s where the convo ended as well. His rationale for voting Thane still seems bogus to me.

 

Bold: Over inflate by directly answering a question I was asked? No. Rest is answered above.

 

Then Thane questions him about him musing over them and Salami being scum together. Barm responds with "I’ve given it a lot of thought but then chalked it out to being spam”. So when Thane does post game related content, which it obviously was, he decides it’s spam and ignores it? Lol   Okaaaaaaaaaaaay

 

A singular line of content in between many spam posts that happens to be rather ridiculous, and I'm supposed to believe it is content? Lol   Okaaaaaaaaaaaay

 

The exchange between him and Thane continues. Thane asks him if he played in games with crazy amounts of posts before. Barm says yes. Thane asks for his general feelings so far. Barm says he likes Arsis but doesn’t like Darthe so far. Doesn’t explain WHY. Arsis doesn’t really make sense to me. I mean he just dropped a vote on them that according to Barm makes no sense. So what exactly is he liking about him? Darthe makes more sense considering if he actually was beating the grass with what he said to Lee, Darthe ate it up and zoomed in on her. We’ll see.

 

Arsis called out Yates, which is why we liked him (Verb noted it in our QT as well). Actually this looks good for Prayala now.

 

When Krak asks Verbal what’s his angle with Thane, Barm interjects and defends Verbal by saying the vote is all him and he hasn’t even talked to Verbal about it. And yet Verbal spent quite a bit of time discussing Thane with Arsis. In any case he unvotes Thane cause he feels better about his contribution to the game now and he’s also now aware of his scummy meta. Okay.

 

Next stop is commenting on if anyone noticed how weird, erratic and overly defensive Sili is being. It really grates me that he seems to start off the game with FoSing the two players who are usually scummy townies. It’s true that Sili hasn’t reached Thane’s level in mislynches yet…. But I think he’s well on his way to give Thane a run for his money. Meh. 

 

Bolded: So it bothers you that two players whom I have never played mafia with before act scummy and I call them on it?

 

Lee responds saying this is how Silli plays as town. Arsis responds saying he’s actually playing differently than how he last played as town (Pretty sure I posted at some point disagreeing with this). Barm says good to know. Barm feels that Sili’s response is out of proportion and telling. 

He questions Sili why he’s voting Wombat if he doesn’t have a scum read on him. Pretty sure this opens the door to where Tress talks about his vote mattering this early on. Bla bla bla. Barm thinks Tress is right. I find this whole discussion kinda redundant, lunno. I mean sure, Sili shouldn’t be voting for someone if he’s not scum reading him…. What’s there to discuss beyond that? Lol

 

Sili moves his vote to AJ, saying he pinged him since early on. Barm asks him if it’s an OMGUS vote or is there more to it? When Krak nudges me to engage him he prods him asking him when he’s gonna share his thoughts. lol

 

Next he makes a post summing up the amount of votes every player did and who doesn’t have much in the way of content. This post is kinda meh. Like fine, if you want to nudge slankers, go ahead. The vote summation was pointless. And he didn’t infer anything from it. He just vomits the facts and ends the post. What was the point of it? To prove that he is keeping notes? YAY! :P

 

Pointless to you perhaps. Other players may have found it more useful. You seem awfully bitter about something though. Why?

 

So what do we have from Barm so far? FoSes Thane then feels better about him. FoSes Sili. Likes Arsis, even though he voted Verbal and it didn’t make sense to Barm. And he doesn’t like Darthe, but doesn’t say why. Oh and there’s the occasional prod of other people to share their thoughts even though he’s done a pretty bad job at sharing his…. Only expressing his opinion of like 3 players, and even than not expanding why he has those stances to the most part.

 

Apparently I hold my cards closer to my chest than you do.

 

Ironically enough he carries on questioning Lee why she doesn’t like Darthe, even though he hasn’t bothered explaining why he doesn’t like him himself. Lee pulls out some quotes to show what bothered her (http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/91702-standard-1110-top-tier-vanilla-game-thread/?p=3377500) and then Barm is like. That’s EXACTLY why he seems off to me too. I guess life is good when you have someone else formulating a reason for your lean :P   Plus he doesn’t even mention Darthe’s reaction to his push on Leelou.

 

Then as the whole exchange goes on between Krak and me, Barm says he doesn’t like the push on me and that he has me as a town lean. Didn’t really mention me before. Didn’t really explain why I’m a town lean. I’m missing his line of thought throughout his posts. It’s all very organic.

 

Then he argues that anything that Arsis did is still applicable and valid even if Pral subbed in. I completely agree with this but this statement is null, really. Either scum or town could say this. But yeah later on he keeps arguing with Darthe, kinda rattled that he might be suggesting that Pral should get a clean slate. I have to say… this sounds a bit funny to me considering he had a good feeling about Arsis. I can understand him arguing the principle… that’s fine. But I don’t know…. Him arguing that Pral should answer for Arsis’ behavior kinda makes my brain hurt…  I mean if he was townreading Arsis what exactly does Pral have to answer for?  Ugh. Still null, I guess.

 

So... you're stuck on a couple of very weird fallacies: 1) That I share all my thoughts on thread (this is weird because you keep complaining about the opposite) 2) That my opinions don't change with events. By that point I was no longer reading Arsis as town.

 

Then later he asks me why I keep saying I have bad juju on their slot (I think I said it at least twice up until that point). I give him a sum up of things that come to mind, saying he’ll have to wait for the ISO for me to expand. This is the part where he says in response to me and Cass that him saying that thing to Lee at the start of game was just him looking for reactions. I don’t know if I buy it. I mean….. he hasn’t at any point talked about what he inferred from it. And he ended up going after Thane after it which doesn’t connect to what he did….. could very easily be him trying to do damage control. “Oh I was just beating the grass”. Okay. But that’s not enough. Tell us what you learned from it. Just stating why he did it but not sharing what he inferred from it is iffy.

 

So I ask him again…. Did you do it just for reactions, then? And he’s like. Yeah, I said it to see where it goes. SO WHERE DID IT GO???  I see no follow up from him on anything he gathered from this “test.” I don’t know I’m just having a very hard time believing him.

 

Your loss.

 

Anyways he keeps arguing with Darthe over the Arsis/Pral slot and soft defending Kivam. 

 

Darthe asks him where Verb is, says he’s prolly busy at work.

 

Des asks Barm if he’s backtracking about his Lee prod early on. Barm says no, just clarifying. 

 

Barm accuses AJ of OMGUS when he’s entertaining a CFD on Kivam. 

 

Des keeps pushing Barm about the whole Lee thing. Barm claims to have thrown the comment to Lee and then just observing to see what happens and not bringing it up again until Cass and I questioned him. Then he actually pulls out quotes of Darthe to show how He was blowing it out of proportion. The timing of this bugs me. He should have done this once he felt like he might have been on to something with his ruse.  Ie admit himself that he was not serious and looky what he found here. Instead he didn’t say a word, moved on to voting Thane, said he didn’t like Darthe because of the things Leelou quoted…. Never bringing up his overreaction which would have made a very good reason to FoS Darthe…. And only brought this up when prompted to and FoSed for it, using Darthe as cannon fodder when Des was leaning in on him. Not Bueno, imo.

 

So first you want information, and now that you've got it you're still not satisfied.

 

Then he mentions Verbal is on a business trip and he’s on his own for a while.

 

Drops a vote on Sili. This again, bugs me. Like he just fessed up that he was beating the grass and Darthe looked REALLY bad. He also previously mentioned that he didn’t like Darthe, even before he brought up Sili. Why isn’t his vote on Darthe at any point? Seems off.  But yeah, as he votes Sili… apparently cause his posts made him angry and he was AtE… okay?... but also throws in that he’d be willing to lynch Darthe too. I can’t shake this… he has a hell of a lot more reasons to vote Darthe from what I’ve seen in his posts…. This is coming off like an unnatural progression to me. It grates.

 

Unnatural? Not at all. Darthe was a lynch candidate for me but I felt much more strongly about the case on Sili.

 

Questions Cass why Verbal’s name is on her list and not his. Totally redundant question. They’re the same slot and it doesn’t matter. Not Verbal’s fault that he’s more memorable :P

 

With Verb's kind of memorable, I'm not sad about this :P

 

Questions Sili how he knows his scum game if from what he remembered he only rolled town. 

 

Agrees with Wombat that Kiv and DPR are hard to read. Bla bla bla.

 

Questions if Kivam positioning himself as town leader is good or bad. Would be nice if he answered that himself, considering he's one of the people who has experience with him.

 

Either very good or very bad, depending on Kiv's alignment. The problem is that I haven't made up my mind on Kiv's alignment, and thusly I cannot answer the question.

 

Gets into a discussion with Cass on how to read DPR and Kivam. Would be nice if he spent more time trying to read them as opposed to explaining HOW to do it. Lol  anyways he tells Cass scumhunting is more important than SK hunting. Tells her she should go back and read Yates spew.

 

Again, you're stuck on this idea that I'm going to share every thought I have on the thread. I've actually been spending the entire game re-reading their stuff to try and make up my mind. Kivam and Wes have always been closed books to me.

 

Anyways he follows through into the whole SK/scum discussion with Kivam. And then into a discussion with Thane about why there were 3 NKs. Kinda nudges Thane about his stance.

 

 

 

Yeah so in TL;DR summary: Your case is entirely based on the idea that I need to be sharing everything I think on thread... and then I'm pretty sure Verb's posting is the majority of your vote. Like I said, he can take care of his own ISO.

[Tommyrod]

Vote Count D2.11:

 

Verbarm (3): Nyn [#2192], Saladtosser [#2202], Darthe [#2224]

Kivam (2): Wombat [#2198], AJ [#2373]

Pral (1): Thane [#1931]

Deslami (1): DPR [#2316]

AJ (1): Kivam [#2365]

 

Unvote (3): Pral [#1985], Cass [#2187], Deslami [#2209]

 

Not Voting (5): Hallia, Krak, Rags, Tress, Verbarm

 

At the gallows: Verbarm

 

Reminder: players not voting at EOD will be voting for themselves.

 

[Nynaeve]

  On 11/17/2014 at 12:14 PM, Barmacral said:

Yeah so in TL;DR summary: Your case is entirely based on the idea that I need to be sharing everything I think on thread... and then I'm pretty sure Verb's posting is the majority of your vote. Like I said, he can take care of his own ISO.

 

Scum take shortcuts and it's easier for them to play it close to the chest so they can hedge on their reads later. So yes, a townie is should showcase a concise line of thought. You might think it's dumb lol... but it is what it is. You claim to have done a ruse with Lee for reaction but you didn't own up to it until you got FoSed for it..... and I didn't really see you utilizing whatever you derived from it. 

 

Looking forward to hear from Verbal.

[csarmi]

+1 to Nyn

 

She's still hot. Despo, can we lock clear her?

[Darthe]

IMO yes, Nyn is crystal this game (and prob has clov to thank for it).  I've got very little that I would hedge on her about.  

[Darthe]

  On 11/17/2014 at 12:14 PM, Barmacral said:

Verb can do his own ISO when he shows up. my responses in blue in the spoiler.

 

  On 11/15/2014 at 7:04 PM, Nynaeve said:

Barm ISO

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

OP: First to post… posting… first! Lol

 

Then there’s the one post of his that probably bugged me the most (along with Verbal’s general behavior) which made me mention several times that they’re giving me the bad juju. Which is him commenting about Leelou’s reaction to Salami calling her townie for saying ‘Sup’. She said it was a generic post of hers, ie null (I'd say even null to town). Which is completely correct. And Barm is like hmmm… weird that she’s defending herself against an accusation of being town. This is a complete misrepresentation. I know it’s easy to say this now that we know her flip…. But why on earth would this be a point of interest? A scum would happily accept being townread. A townie would be suspicious over someone giving them a town read over nonsense. Lee’s reaction, if anything, was a light town tell and I think Barm trying to point it out as if it’s off is iffy.

 

I answered this. Repeating myself isn't going to change the simple truth.

 

Leelou’s reply to Barm is “Not really, that shouldn't be judged as a townie or non townie post.” Again, correct. At this point Darthe jumps in saying this looks like guilty conscience. WHAAA?? Lol seriously? So Wombat points out Darthe’s post and asks Salami if it rustles his rigor jammies. Barm quotes Wombat and asks if it rustles HIS rigor jammies. 

 

I quite agree with you on Darthe here. One of the reasons I have found him scummy.

 

Later on in between Verbal and Yates discussion about the 3 amigos where Verbal keeps saying he rather not talk about it, as he continues talking about it…. Barm interjects and asks how exactly did that work last game where he was scum with Lee and me. I think this is an excellent point, actually.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Then he drops a vote on Thane, saying he’s made only one contribution to the thread so far and all the rest was fluff. I don’t like this vote, really. Even for a D1 vote. It was only page 8 and what exactly did Barm or Verbal bring to the game for that matter? All Barm did was nudge Leelou about something that makes zero sense. That’s about it. I’m not even sure if I got all ‘serious’ by page 8. Overall lame reasoning and bad vote. Added to that… I will touch this later too but Barm later claims to have said this whole thing to beat the grass and didn't actually mean it. From what I can see, Darthe ate this up and jumped to back him up…… why then didn't he vote Darthe? He didn't seem to make any conclusions from his “Test” and ended up landing a vote on Thane. Missing the flow.

 

Bolded: Read above, you'll answer your own question, incredible how short your memory is here. Also if you didn't read the post in isolation you might have noticed that all other players who were active at that point were playing, where Thane alone was spamming. It isn't my contribution vs his, it is his contributions vs the entire game.

 

Arsis drops the vote on Verbal for posting memes when he’s scum. He reacts with LOL that makes no sense. Null I guess though seems a bit like….. I’m gonna lol at your vote but not actually engage you. I mean, why is this vote not making him think….mmmm… why would Arsis drop such a nonsocial vote?

 

So I'm now expected to lay out my entire thought process on thread as it happens? Your assumption that I am not thinking about these things because I don't spell it out for you is dumb.

 

Then Thane responds to the vote on him saying others were spamming too and some people haven’t even shown up and what exactly has Barm contributed so far? Excellent points. Barm claims Thane was the only one spamming… which I disagree with. I spammed here and there. Verbal did spam later on after his ‘serious’ entrance. Thane wasn’t the only one. And jeez, it was only page 8    Then Barm claims to have contributed a ton so far like questioning Wombat, Yates and voting for Thane. Looks like Barm is trying to inflate his contributions thus far. He asked Yates one question about the discworld game and that’s where that convo ended. And he asked Wombat if a post rustled his jimmies and that’s where the convo ended as well. His rationale for voting Thane still seems bogus to me.

 

Bold: Over inflate by directly answering a question I was asked? No. Rest is answered above.

 

Then Thane questions him about him musing over them and Salami being scum together. Barm responds with "I’ve given it a lot of thought but then chalked it out to being spam”. So when Thane does post game related content, which it obviously was, he decides it’s spam and ignores it? Lol   Okaaaaaaaaaaaay

 

A singular line of content in between many spam posts that happens to be rather ridiculous, and I'm supposed to believe it is content? Lol   Okaaaaaaaaaaaay

 

The exchange between him and Thane continues. Thane asks him if he played in games with crazy amounts of posts before. Barm says yes. Thane asks for his general feelings so far. Barm says he likes Arsis but doesn’t like Darthe so far. Doesn’t explain WHY. Arsis doesn’t really make sense to me. I mean he just dropped a vote on them that according to Barm makes no sense. So what exactly is he liking about him? Darthe makes more sense considering if he actually was beating the grass with what he said to Lee, Darthe ate it up and zoomed in on her. We’ll see.

 

Arsis called out Yates, which is why we liked him (Verb noted it in our QT as well). Actually this looks good for Prayala now.

 

When Krak asks Verbal what’s his angle with Thane, Barm interjects and defends Verbal by saying the vote is all him and he hasn’t even talked to Verbal about it. And yet Verbal spent quite a bit of time discussing Thane with Arsis. In any case he unvotes Thane cause he feels better about his contribution to the game now and he’s also now aware of his scummy meta. Okay.

 

Next stop is commenting on if anyone noticed how weird, erratic and overly defensive Sili is being. It really grates me that he seems to start off the game with FoSing the two players who are usually scummy townies. It’s true that Sili hasn’t reached Thane’s level in mislynches yet…. But I think he’s well on his way to give Thane a run for his money. Meh. 

 

Bolded: So it bothers you that two players whom I have never played mafia with before act scummy and I call them on it?

 

Lee responds saying this is how Silli plays as town. Arsis responds saying he’s actually playing differently than how he last played as town (Pretty sure I posted at some point disagreeing with this). Barm says good to know. Barm feels that Sili’s response is out of proportion and telling. 

He questions Sili why he’s voting Wombat if he doesn’t have a scum read on him. Pretty sure this opens the door to where Tress talks about his vote mattering this early on. Bla bla bla. Barm thinks Tress is right. I find this whole discussion kinda redundant, lunno. I mean sure, Sili shouldn’t be voting for someone if he’s not scum reading him…. What’s there to discuss beyond that? Lol

 

Sili moves his vote to AJ, saying he pinged him since early on. Barm asks him if it’s an OMGUS vote or is there more to it? When Krak nudges me to engage him he prods him asking him when he’s gonna share his thoughts. lol

 

Next he makes a post summing up the amount of votes every player did and who doesn’t have much in the way of content. This post is kinda meh. Like fine, if you want to nudge slankers, go ahead. The vote summation was pointless. And he didn’t infer anything from it. He just vomits the facts and ends the post. What was the point of it? To prove that he is keeping notes? YAY! :P

 

Pointless to you perhaps. Other players may have found it more useful. You seem awfully bitter about something though. Why?

 

So what do we have from Barm so far? FoSes Thane then feels better about him. FoSes Sili. Likes Arsis, even though he voted Verbal and it didn’t make sense to Barm. And he doesn’t like Darthe, but doesn’t say why. Oh and there’s the occasional prod of other people to share their thoughts even though he’s done a pretty bad job at sharing his…. Only expressing his opinion of like 3 players, and even than not expanding why he has those stances to the most part.

 

Apparently I hold my cards closer to my chest than you do.

 

Ironically enough he carries on questioning Lee why she doesn’t like Darthe, even though he hasn’t bothered explaining why he doesn’t like him himself. Lee pulls out some quotes to show what bothered her (http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/91702-standard-1110-top-tier-vanilla-game-thread/?p=3377500) and then Barm is like. That’s EXACTLY why he seems off to me too. I guess life is good when you have someone else formulating a reason for your lean :P   Plus he doesn’t even mention Darthe’s reaction to his push on Leelou.

 

Then as the whole exchange goes on between Krak and me, Barm says he doesn’t like the push on me and that he has me as a town lean. Didn’t really mention me before. Didn’t really explain why I’m a town lean. I’m missing his line of thought throughout his posts. It’s all very organic.

 

Then he argues that anything that Arsis did is still applicable and valid even if Pral subbed in. I completely agree with this but this statement is null, really. Either scum or town could say this. But yeah later on he keeps arguing with Darthe, kinda rattled that he might be suggesting that Pral should get a clean slate. I have to say… this sounds a bit funny to me considering he had a good feeling about Arsis. I can understand him arguing the principle… that’s fine. But I don’t know…. Him arguing that Pral should answer for Arsis’ behavior kinda makes my brain hurt…  I mean if he was townreading Arsis what exactly does Pral have to answer for?  Ugh. Still null, I guess.

 

So... you're stuck on a couple of very weird fallacies: 1) That I share all my thoughts on thread (this is weird because you keep complaining about the opposite) 2) That my opinions don't change with events. By that point I was no longer reading Arsis as town.

 

Then later he asks me why I keep saying I have bad juju on their slot (I think I said it at least twice up until that point). I give him a sum up of things that come to mind, saying he’ll have to wait for the ISO for me to expand. This is the part where he says in response to me and Cass that him saying that thing to Lee at the start of game was just him looking for reactions. I don’t know if I buy it. I mean….. he hasn’t at any point talked about what he inferred from it. And he ended up going after Thane after it which doesn’t connect to what he did….. could very easily be him trying to do damage control. “Oh I was just beating the grass”. Okay. But that’s not enough. Tell us what you learned from it. Just stating why he did it but not sharing what he inferred from it is iffy.

 

So I ask him again…. Did you do it just for reactions, then? And he’s like. Yeah, I said it to see where it goes. SO WHERE DID IT GO???  I see no follow up from him on anything he gathered from this “test.” I don’t know I’m just having a very hard time believing him.

 

Your loss.

 

Anyways he keeps arguing with Darthe over the Arsis/Pral slot and soft defending Kivam. 

 

Darthe asks him where Verb is, says he’s prolly busy at work.

 

Des asks Barm if he’s backtracking about his Lee prod early on. Barm says no, just clarifying. 

 

Barm accuses AJ of OMGUS when he’s entertaining a CFD on Kivam. 

 

Des keeps pushing Barm about the whole Lee thing. Barm claims to have thrown the comment to Lee and then just observing to see what happens and not bringing it up again until Cass and I questioned him. Then he actually pulls out quotes of Darthe to show how He was blowing it out of proportion. The timing of this bugs me. He should have done this once he felt like he might have been on to something with his ruse.  Ie admit himself that he was not serious and looky what he found here. Instead he didn’t say a word, moved on to voting Thane, said he didn’t like Darthe because of the things Leelou quoted…. Never bringing up his overreaction which would have made a very good reason to FoS Darthe…. And only brought this up when prompted to and FoSed for it, using Darthe as cannon fodder when Des was leaning in on him. Not Bueno, imo.

 

So first you want information, and now that you've got it you're still not satisfied.

 

Then he mentions Verbal is on a business trip and he’s on his own for a while.

 

Drops a vote on Sili. This again, bugs me. Like he just fessed up that he was beating the grass and Darthe looked REALLY bad. He also previously mentioned that he didn’t like Darthe, even before he brought up Sili. Why isn’t his vote on Darthe at any point? Seems off.  But yeah, as he votes Sili… apparently cause his posts made him angry and he was AtE… okay?... but also throws in that he’d be willing to lynch Darthe too. I can’t shake this… he has a hell of a lot more reasons to vote Darthe from what I’ve seen in his posts…. This is coming off like an unnatural progression to me. It grates.

 

Unnatural? Not at all. Darthe was a lynch candidate for me but I felt much more strongly about the case on Sili.

 

Questions Cass why Verbal’s name is on her list and not his. Totally redundant question. They’re the same slot and it doesn’t matter. Not Verbal’s fault that he’s more memorable :P

 

With Verb's kind of memorable, I'm not sad about this :P

 

Questions Sili how he knows his scum game if from what he remembered he only rolled town. 

 

Agrees with Wombat that Kiv and DPR are hard to read. Bla bla bla.

 

Questions if Kivam positioning himself as town leader is good or bad. Would be nice if he answered that himself, considering he's one of the people who has experience with him.

 

Either very good or very bad, depending on Kiv's alignment. The problem is that I haven't made up my mind on Kiv's alignment, and thusly I cannot answer the question.

 

Gets into a discussion with Cass on how to read DPR and Kivam. Would be nice if he spent more time trying to read them as opposed to explaining HOW to do it. Lol  anyways he tells Cass scumhunting is more important than SK hunting. Tells her she should go back and read Yates spew.

 

Again, you're stuck on this idea that I'm going to share every thought I have on the thread. I've actually been spending the entire game re-reading their stuff to try and make up my mind. Kivam and Wes have always been closed books to me.

 

Anyways he follows through into the whole SK/scum discussion with Kivam. And then into a discussion with Thane about why there were 3 NKs. Kinda nudges Thane about his stance.

 

 

 

Yeah so in TL;DR summary: Your case is entirely based on the idea that I need to be sharing everything I think on thread... and then I'm pretty sure Verb's posting is the majority of your vote. Like I said, he can take care of his own ISO.

 

 

  On 11/8/2014 at 5:00 PM, Arsis said:

All hydras should and will be judged by the scummiest of the pair everytime. Saying "but you have to read me as well" is wifom and an admittance of being mafia.

 

I'd add in here that you should be able and talk for your other head since you KNOW his alignment.  Even in the responses you gave above you seemed more put off and hesitant that you had to respond than interested in being seen as town, which isn't condusive to game solving.  

 

  On 11/17/2014 at 12:42 PM, Nynaeve said:

 

  On 11/17/2014 at 12:14 PM, Barmacral said:

Yeah so in TL;DR summary: Your case is entirely based on the idea that I need to be sharing everything I think on thread... and then I'm pretty sure Verb's posting is the majority of your vote. Like I said, he can take care of his own ISO.

 

Scum take shortcuts and it's easier for them to play it close to the chest so they can hedge on their reads later. So yes, a townie is should showcase a concise line of thought. You might think it's dumb lol... but it is what it is. You claim to have done a ruse with Lee for reaction but you didn't own up to it until you got FoSed for it..... and I didn't really see you utilizing whatever you derived from it. 

 

Looking forward to hear from Verbal.

 

 

Or, ya know, this.  At the time when Leelou was talking with Barm about why she had me negged in her list I didn't really think about his "me too!" response as scummy tbh.  I remember it and just sorta rolled with it.  Your ISO makes that look a lot worse IMO, though I don't know to say worse than it was.  At the time it was sort of breezed over.  

 

Ditto on the verb thing.

[Thane Vakarian]

i have some catching up and rereading to do. Weekend was too short and major works on my house have started this morning. Need to get back into the game :/

[Darthe]

@Salami, what do you think of Yates spew on Laya?  What about Des's analysis of it?

[csarmi]

  On 11/17/2014 at 1:49 PM, Darthe said:

@Salami, what do you think of Yates spew on Laya?  What about Des's analysis of it?

I'd have to read it, man :)

 

I wasn't kidding when I said I was behind. I skimmed through it only.

[Darthe]

It's better that you haven't in this case.  You can answer the first part unbiased.

[WWWwombat]

If I'm right on what I think the "obvious" is, Salami, I don't see the omission as being significant in this setup.

 

I would like to see AJ respond to Kivam because the SK holster idea was pretty bizarre imo.  That being said, AJ still looks pretty town!AJ outside of his interactions with Kiv and idk if I would vote AJ today or not.

 

I don't get why everyone is clearing Nyn, but I don't see her as scummy so not a big deal I guess.