[Standard] - Hitchhiker's Game to the Galaxy - Game Over

[ReleaseTheEvil]

Ok so Thane is the vig and we are two VTs down. Well could have been worse had a PR been shot. 

 

So now the big question at hand is why would a town watcher watch themselves. Maybe he was hoping to 

[ReleaseTheEvil]

catch a role-blocker or similar role? Would he get a reply though if he got role-blocked? It's a bonehead move beneath dice's play otherwise if he's town...

 

Not sure Clov town makes Pral more or less town as Clov didn't know alignment.

[BFG]

If you are telling the truth then you are lucky that you didn´t shoot a power role. I don´t understand that kill at all.

I don't understand this comment. There's always a chance that a vig could shoot a power role.

[BFG]

Ok so Thane is the vig and we are two VTs down. Well could have been worse had a PR been shot. 

 

So now the big question at hand is why would a town watcher watch themselves. Maybe he was hoping to

 

 

catch a role-blocker or similar role? Would he get a reply though if he got role-blocked? It's a bonehead move beneath dice's play otherwise if he's town...

 

Not sure Clov town makes Pral more or less town as Clov didn't know alignment.

I would assume that Dice would get no answer if he was role blocked.

 

Clov wouldn't know Pral's alignment, but his town read on Pral was genuine.

[Thane Vakarian]

i don't believe dice is the town watcher.... he never said he was town either. And clov's reads were genuine. If he would have flipped scum though, Pral was likely scum too. For me, it was worth the shot.

 

And i go with Tina, i was lucky i didn't shoot a PR. Though, i will try to remember the comment....

[Niniel]

BFG - of course, there is always the chance that the vig shoots a PR. But this was on N1 and I felt that the reason for shoting Clov was very thin. 

 

I´m not sure how much we can trust a character claim, Csarmi might have given out fake claims, but I would like those that have revealed their roles to reveal their characters. 

 

 

Back to Clov - without going back to check, wasn´t Clov most suspicious of Hallia and Cory? If I get the time I will check. 

[Niniel]

The ISO doesn´t show posts in time order. Strange. What I got was that Hallia was his main suspect in the end of last day. What about Nyn? 

[Niniel]

A quick check at the first two pages of Nyn´s ISO tells me she could have voted Pralaya or Lazy. She has argued back and forth with AJ and she didn´t like Dice. The only reason she unvoted him was because of his claim. 

[dicetosser1]

Congrats, Des! That is great news! 

 

 

 

i watched myself

 

Des came and visited me

 

Des?

 

 

I so wish that I could get some proof that Des is town because he has a lot of townie posts that I would follow him on. But... I don´t believe his reason for voting Lazy. Not at all. 

 

 

Dice - again, do you believe Cory´s character claim? 

 

I have no reason not to believe cory's claim. I think he is town. he claimed a major charachter and hasnt been cc'd. with all of yesterday i think he would have got cc'd if he was lying

 

 

Des tell me do you REALLY want this info in the thread?

 

 

and no im not stalling   its a genuine question with a reason behind it

 

I gave you an out des. it should be obvious at this that i have an answer and know there are reasons to not give it.

 

 

It makes sense to me if Des was tracker and really weirded out Dice targeted himself. Why the fudge would a watcher target himself? Looks more like Des was trying to catch Dice in a lie

 

ok lets see. do you think its a smart move for the watcher to watch the guy who almost got lynched, claimed a power role and yet still has people calling him mafia?

 

 cause I do.

 

in this case that guy WAS the watcher.

 

i thought i was a prime candidate for visits. did i think a town role likely to visit? of course i did! I also thought it possible a mafia role might too. im not too sure how it works with a watcher seeing a roleblocker, but my logic is that the watcher would see the roleblocker unless they were a ninja. 

 

Then think of the possible info it could get me for eliminating suspects.

 

as for predicting a NK?? i had a 1 in 15 chance of that. i took better odds

 

As if anyone would have believed that. No one think it´s strange that Dice and Des tries to clear each other? 

 

Who are your characters?

 

I didn't try to clear des. i gave him an out yes  but i wasn't trying to clear him.

 

 

 

 

heres Dice 101 for RL   dont ask me questions you dont REALLY want the answer to. Cause i will answer and you probably wont like it.

 

 

 

and remember there was the possibility that des was mafia and jumping on me quick to look good.

[Niniel]

And your character are? 

 

I find it strange that you believed Cory´s character claim (who one could assume would be a PR) and still voted him. 

[Niniel]

* is

[dicetosser1]

slartibarfast

 

i voted him only for consolidation. which i said at the time tina. 

[Niniel]

I know you said that. And I understand the reason for voting for consolidation. But it´s strange to vote someone that you believe are a main character. 

 

 

This game is very weird. My biggest town read was Clov. Now he and Nyn is dead. 

 

Right now I wouldn´t vote: Leelou, Verbal, Pral

 

People that I don´t have any oppinion on (because I haven´t read or remember their post properly): AJ, BFG

 

The rest:

 

Thane - I find his reason for shooting someone on N1 strange. If he was suspicious of Pral, why not shoot Pral? As Des and others pointed out, he had a hard time to take a stand yesterday. It was kind of an early reveal too. 

 

Hallia - I agree with Clove´s case on her. Only pops in when mentioned. Claimed vanilla with one vote on her. Why?

 

RTE - I know I questioned him about something yesterday but I can´t remember if I got that answered or not. Need to check that tomorrow.

 

Lazy - doesn´t play. We´ll see if he has any reads now that we have two deaths.

 

Dice - his reason for voting Leelou was strange. Watching himself is strange too. 

 

Vos - I didn´t like Mish´s vote on Leelou but then she disappeared and Vos  replaced her. The only thing I have seen from him/remember is his vote on Thane today.

 

Cory - still think he is scum. See earlier reasons.

 

Des - I just can´t make up my mind about him. It seems to be a strange coincidence that he and Dice can confirm each other. I didn´t like how he went after Cory, BFG (and some other people) but ended up voting Lazy. His reason for voting Lazy just looks made up. At the same time he makes some good posts as well. 

 

 

Apparently 8 out of 14 can´t be scum but I don´t know where to start. I hope I get time to re-read some tomorrow.

[Cory Caboose]

Tina you are weirding me out

[Andrej]

Happy Memorial Day to all you vets - past and present!

 

 

 

 

[Andrej]

 

I knocked that Thane case out of the park

 

 

Lol - how'd that work out for you?

 

Congrats btw!

 

It makes sense to me if Des was tracker and really weirded out Dice targeted himself. Why the fudge would a watcher target himself? Looks more like Des was trying to catch Dice in a lie

 

Idk man, this all seems kind of counter intuitive. Des tracks Dice, Dice watches himself, so he already would know that Des visited him. That leaves a pretty small margin of him trying to lie about it.

 

And can I check that I have this the right way round?

Tracker finds out where someone goes and a Watcher finds out who visits somebody?

 

Right. For the sake of learning - Voyeurs learn what 'actions' were performed on their target. RB/Protect/Investigate, etc

 

Srsly tho, in search of more commentary on my Thane case. He is das scum.

 

I think the case overall was accurate irt how I could see you coming to that conclusion. I've been wary of Thane myself most of this game, especially around the Dice wagon D1.

 

A scum watcher would watch themselves for that very reason, Des. To find town PRs.

 

Exactly. I thought your D1 comment about Watchers being either alignment was a little snipey, but seeing as how he actually did watch himself I'm beginning to lean more in this direction.

 

 

A scum watcher would watch themselves for that very reason, Des. To find town PRs.

 

However, I think the fact that Dice revealed his result makes me believe he is not scum. If he was scum, why would he announce Des as PR and instead he could have taken him out in the night.

 

Not so at all, amigo. I literally just finished a game where I tried to give someone the benefit of the doubt over something like this, calling out a potential PR on thread, and he turned out to be mafia. Not saying this makes Dice mafia, but I wouldn't say it clears him either.

 

I'd disagree (obviously)

 

You mafia hunt regardless of whether you're town or mafia and the differences are quite subtle.

 

Given that I doubt anyone's going to stand up and say 'I'm mafia, discuss' then I'm looking for things I agree and disagree with. When I see something I disagree with I'm going to call it out, the points that I've made are in thread and imo accurate. Leelou's early game interaction with Verb quantifiable so, and the early game discussion about PRs objectionably so. I also said I thought the rest of your case wasn't bad. The Clov vote debate would have ended much earlier if you'd just said the hypocritical thing when I first brought it up instead of trying to pass it off as a catch-up thing. So no, I'm not bringing up contradictions I think I've found, I'm bringing up contradictions that are in thread and trying to determine if I think the reason behind the contradictions are scummy or not.

 

I'm also following up on the points I make. Maybe I define sniper differently to you.

 

Pretty villagery tone here I think. BFG is sticking to her guns and staying firm on her stance for what she believes she found ITT.

 

I've actually seen a number of games recently with a Tracker and Watcher, or Watcher and Voyeur or something. Trend lately is having more than one of the ... we need to come up with a name for that group of roles (Watcher, Tracker, Follower, Voyeur) in the same game.

 

Dunno why one of Dice and me have to be scum at all. /shrug

 

I've never heard of a Follower, but I think that could be crafted to be a cool role to combine with a Watcher dynamic. I agree that normally when you see a Watcher there will typically be a Tracker or something along those lines to work in conjunction with it - it also very likely means there is a Mafia Ninja since they directly counter both of those roles (can't be tracked or seen performing NK).

 

As far as what to name them all... hmmmm - idk. It's worth brainstorming though Watcher/Tracker/Ninja, etc gives a pretty cool change up to the typical Cop/GF combo.

 

I'm including the list of possible roles in the game here, cause mafia scum wiki seems to be down. I'll also update the opening post.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7zr1avbeihoqxnh/ListOfRoles.txt

 

Bodyguard - dies in place of its target

Bulletproof - prevents its target from being NK'd (usually 1x)

Cop - gets the alignment of its target (town, not town)

Doctor - prevents its target from a NK (may or may not self-protect)

Doublevoter - has two votes

Godfather - mafia, views as "town" to cop

Gunsmith - checks if its target has a gun (people with a NK and Gunsmith are considered to have a gun)

Hider - selects a player to hide behind every night, can't be targeted directly, gets affected by any action on its target instead (dies if hiding behind "not town")

Innocent Child - is confirmed town from game start

Jack-of-all-trades - has several different 1-shot actions (most common variants have 3-4 actions - investigative, killing, protective, blocking)

Jailkeeper - its target can't be killed + target is roleblocked

Lover - 2+ players, if any of them dies, all of them does (may or may not have QT to communicate, may or may not share alignment)

Mason - 2+ players, they have a QT to communicate, share alignment (usually town)

Miller - town, views as mafia

Neighbor - 2+ players, they have a Qt to communicate, may or ma ynot share alignment

Role Cop - learns the target's role, but not the alignment

Roleblocker - the actions of its target will fail

Serial Killer - 3rd party, have a factional NK, they usually have to kill everyone else to win, sometimes they get bonuses such as lynchproof, bulletproof, investigation immunity

Survivor - 3rd party, may win with either mafia or town, sometimes they get bonuses such as lynchproof, bulletproof, investigation immunity

Tracker - learns the target of its target

Vigilante - town only, has a NK

Watcher - learns who visited its target

 

Hm, well I take that back on the Ninja since it isn't listed here. Since we have a Watcher/Tracker combo though (given neither are lying and both are town) it would mean that scum have to have at least 1 active role. Role Cop or Role Blocker would both fit here. Seeing as we have a claimed Vig (which verifies it is town only - so at least we know Thane isn't mafia - doesn't rule out SK) I would say that there is probably a BPV on the scum team as well.

 

watching yourself as a watcher doesn't make any sense.....

 

vote dice

 

... unless you knew it could get you into trouble if viewed *nods*

 

I'm kind of leaning in this direction as well.

 

So since he had a town-read on someone you scumread, and didn't want to consolidate on this person, he must've been scum? 

 

But yeah, for now at least i'll [unvote] (that was right, right?)

 

This is kind of over simplifying the premise on Thane's shot. Thane is justified for the shot he took, although I probably would've shot Pral first personally to verify this connection. I pointed it out as well (so did a few others) about how him voting for Hallia over Pral as the DL was passing would be important later if Pral flipped scum.

 

Still trudging through this thread (game is meaty) but very confident all are villagers: AJ, Des, Thane

 

AJ spent most of his Day 1 battling Nyn despite me telling him numerous times they were both villagers

Des spent most of his Day 1 battling me and Thane to no satisfaction of my own

 

Thane spent most of his Day 1 pulling reads out of a hat and shooting villagers

 

I spent most of Day 1 whining (see, I'm bad too)

 

Let's get our shit together nao?

 

Let's.

 

 

I can still think of literally 0 reason Dice would watch himself if he were town.

 

Unless he thought he'd be killed AND protected or something absurd like that, all Mafia could do to a watcher is kill him or block him and there is NOTHING a watcher can do with that anyway. OP confirms there is no Bus Driver or Redirector type role in the game.

 

Please explain this to me

 

Honestly I agree with you here. I'm having a hard time seeing the town motivation to watching himself. Scum Watcher's power is to find the town PRs by watching those people they think are most likely to be visited, or their own scum buds to see if they get peeked and by whom, etc.

 

So yeah, him getting RB'd wouldn't allow him to see who did it. Him getting NK'd - well, kills him - so we wouldn't ever find out anyway.

 

Des, AJ: could Dice be this level of derp as town? The general onus of the watcher is to always try and predict the nightkill. Him making an awful decision like that doesn't necessarily make him Mafia, but I get the impression that Dice is smarter than he lets on sometimes, so this is absolutely baffling to me.

 

I agree with the bolded, but damn, I'm having a really hard time reconciling him doing it from a town POV.

 

catch a role-blocker or similar role? Would he get a reply though if he got role-blocked? It's a bonehead move beneath dice's play otherwise if he's town...

 

Not sure Clov town makes Pral more or less town as Clov didn't know alignment.

 

He wouldn't get a result if he was RB'd. That's kind of simple.

 

Agree with you somewhat that Clov dying doesn't clear Pral either.

 

i don't believe dice is the town watcher.... he never said he was town either. And clov's reads were genuine. If he would have flipped scum though, Pral was likely scum too. For me, it was worth the shot.

 

And i go with Tina, i was lucky i didn't shoot a PR. Though, i will try to remember the comment....

 

That's sort of borderline semantics, but I like where your head is at. Could be a somewhat subconscious slip on Dice's part.

[BFG]

Dice, if you'd been visited by a role blocker, you'd have been role blocked and wouldn't get a result. If you'd been visited and killed, you'd be killed and wouldn't be able to give a result...

[Cory Caboose]

Idk man, this all seems kind of counter intuitive. Des tracks Dice, Dice watches himself, so he already would know that Des visited him. That leaves a pretty small margin of him trying to lie about it.

 

If I were Des and I tracked Dice to himself after he claimed watcher I would pretty assume Dice wasn't actually the watcher

 

But that's me

 

I have actually never seen a scum watcher in a game before (those sorts of roles in general are unpopular on 2+2 and WF is very traditional as to role allocations and watcher/tracker are basically always town roles) but from what I understand that stuff is more common here

[Andrej]

Having a scum Watcher for mafia is kind of a gimped Role Cop.

 

What would you assume Dice was then? Him verifying that Des tracked him lends to him at least being honest about his role.

[Cory Caboose]

I'm saying going into the phase I would suspect Dice was lying. That's not that result I would expect from tracking the claimed watcher.

 

After that it was confirmed.

[ReleaseTheEvil]

Well Dice's move makes sense if we consider that he thought that:

 

a. He would be the target of the NK

 

b. He would be doc-protected.

 

That means then he would presumably have identified who submitted a kill on him and lived 

[ReleaseTheEvil]

through the night as the only claimed town PR at the time.

 

That's the only way I see it making sense though. Otherwise it kinda confuses me and not something I'd expect from him. 

 

Anyone have any other ideas?

 

This is annoying. 

[Cory Caboose]

Well Dice's move makes sense if we consider that he thought that:

 

a. He would be the target of the NK

 

b. He would be doc-protected.

 

That means then he would presumably have identified who submitted a kill on him and lived 

 

Dice's immediate response was just "I thought I would be targeted by town or Mafia"

 

so ???

[Andrej]

Dice's logic doesn't really line up as far as him viewing himself from a town POV.

 

RBer would have blocked him, so he wouldn't have gotten a result, and a Ninja would've killed him anyway so again - no result.

 

Basically the only people he could've seen visiting him were townies with PRs, which is the crux of a Mafia Watcher's purpose.

 

I wouldn't be against lynching him at this point - this kind of WIFOM will be harmful later.

 

Still want to see Hallia ran up, too - btw. She was around last night but we still aren't seeing any type of analysis for her. Mostly fluff and jokes - and I know "It's her meta" but seriously, enough is enough. I don't remember her making any commentary on Dice D1 either, I'll need to verify that later though when I have more time.

 

Well Dice's move makes sense if we consider that he thought that:

 

a. He would be the target of the NK

 

b. He would be doc-protected.

 

That means then he would presumably have identified who submitted a kill on him and lived 

 

Not really. It would give him 2 names - one of which would be the Doc/BG and NK submitter.

[nervositee]

I love how today is gonna revolve around if Dice is mafia or just did a really stupid move. I'm not that confident about the PR-tactics, nor Dices meta to claim if he would ever make such a move. 

 

It seems odd though. Very odd. 

 

Also, is it just me, or is Cory being uncharacteristically open to giving him the benefit of the doubt? 

 

Also RTE reads like he is actively trying to clear Dice. Stinks.