Role pm matching/phrasing

[dapianoplay3r]

It's cos new players are too scared of making a mistake to push the rules

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

it's not weird. small community builds up all kinds of stress. ppl need new ways to get a reaction. get grudgy, beat dead horses for days. like family gatherings with open bars.

[Basel Gill]

  On 1/22/2014 at 1:23 AM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/21/2014 at 9:36 PM, _CLOUD said:

I totally agree that such things don't belong in a mafia game, but I'm also against the idea of incorporating MAMA in our games here. The concept of the spirit of the game should be understood and argued by every mafia player because it is the only logical and true way to play these games, and it is also the only way for us to being able to trust each other. I personally don't want to play with people who need to have rules written down for them to establish what is right and wrong behavior as it clearly shows that such players don't belong here in the first place.

 

 

Ok, we are in total agreement here, just so that is clear. But I just wanna throw this out there for the sake of discussion:

 

How about new players? Would there be a point in either:

a)Having a MAMA that all new members "automatically" agree to when signing up for a game

b)Having a sticky "Game etiquette"-thread. 

 

Just a thought? Don't know if this have ever been a problem with new members but yeah, might be an idea?

 

 

Different players just within one site have varying ideas of game etiquette. If I had a dollar for every time I've seen an argument over what falls within the spirit of the game just in the two years I've been playing, I think I could buy myself some nice shoes. Putting together a game etiquette thread might cause more trouble than it would solve.

[nervositee]

  On 1/22/2014 at 2:31 AM, cindy said:

[...] like family gatherings with open bars.

 

 Painting quite the (scary) picture there!

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

  On 1/22/2014 at 3:39 AM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/22/2014 at 2:31 AM, cindy said:

[...] like family gatherings with open bars.

 

 

 Painting quite the (scary) picture there!

you have no idea

[dapianoplay3r]

Hit me with an open bar anytime

[Basel Gill]

  On 1/22/2014 at 4:04 AM, dapianoplay3r said:

Hit me with an open bar anytime

 

 

THWACK!

 

Hey, you asked. Put some ice on the spot where it hit you.

[hazelkrs1]

  On 1/21/2014 at 9:36 PM, _CLOUD said:

I totally agree that such things don't belong in a mafia game, but I'm also against the idea of incorporating MAMA in our games here. The concept of the spirit of the game should be understood and argued by every mafia player because it is the only logical and true way to play these games, and it is also the only way for us to being able to trust each other. I personally don't want to play with people who need to have rules written down for them to establish what is right and wrong behavior as it clearly shows that such players don't belong here in the first place.

 

This is kind of a silly stance to take. Some of the things that get brought up are def gray areas somewhat, and sometimes mores and attitudes about certain behaviors shift.

 

For instance, do you recall the thread that brought up the lying about RL tactic? Well, there have prob been multiples of that lol. In any case, a couple of players there admitted to having no problem using the tactic (Darthe was one), until others spoke out and said how wrong they thought that was. That let them know that kind of thing was considered bad form, and those players either stopped playing here or stopped using that as a tactic.

 

I know I myself have a much different attitude about what is kosher and what isn't in mafia than when I first started, and that's mostly come from getting a feel for the community around me, as well as seeing what others have had to say about certain questionable tactics.

 

My point is, you can take this hardcore "If they don't play right, they don't belong here at all" gestapo type stance, but that's really not fair to someone who just may not see things the same way others do. That's why I think communication is good in this area, as it can help both newer players who haven't seen discussion about this sort of thing, as well as veterans from other sites who aren't quite used to what is considered acceptable here at DM.

[hazelkrs1]

A good example of how mores and attitudes can shift: the aggressive playstyles that have become fairly common nowadays NEVER would have been accepted when mafia was first starting here. And a lot of things we find almost reprehensible were actually somewhat commonplace in early DM mafia games. Stuff like OOT talk, playing against wincons, that sort of thing happened more often than I would have thought when I read some of those old ones.

[Niniel]

I think most people have done the wrong thing once or twice, I have. But I don´t see anyone here that is constantly trying to break the rules or playing outside the spirit of the game. Still it´s good to talk about stuff like this a little now and then.

 

I have made it clear in other places that I don´t like the aggressive playstyle that some use here now days. I definitely think that people attack each other too much on a personal level. It´s easy to say that it´s not personal but I have seen it becoming personal a lot lately. It´s like all DM rules don´t apply when the mafia games start. And people still critizise each other after the game. It´s just a game!  I´m not sure how effective it´s either. Often two aggressive players tunnel on each other and often both turn up town. Some of our best players here are not very aggressive. I understand a certain aggressivness but I think people take it too far. 

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

yeah, that definitely narrows the pool of potential players. and it's lame to have to resort to bullying over thinking.

 

it's easy enough to not read as a spectator but as a player you have to and ick.

[dapianoplay3r]

I too think DM has become rather personal recently

Hopefully it's just a trend like the 3rd voter thing

[hazelkrs1]

Aggressive play styles are much more likely to garner reactions, and pretty much the whole game is based around reactions.

 

Also, its kind of funny to me how some people will say they don't like aggressive play styles, and yet the players they favor most are generally aggressive. Why are DM's most famous mafia players generally the more aggressive type? Wombat, Kivam, Mynd, Ithi, Verbal, Jack... The list could keep on going. All of those players are generally aggressive.

 

Does it go too far sometimes? Of course. But then, it is a game designed around killing one another, and emotions are generally much more likely to fly around anyways, so it's easy to get carried away at times. I think you have MORE aggressive players nowadays, as in more players that are aggressive, but I don't think aggressive play styles are a new thing and I think they are pretty effective compared to other styles.

[_CLOUD]

  On 1/22/2014 at 1:23 AM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/21/2014 at 9:36 PM, _CLOUD said:

I totally agree that such things don't belong in a mafia game, but I'm also against the idea of incorporating MAMA in our games here. The concept of the spirit of the game should be understood and argued by every mafia player because it is the only logical and true way to play these games, and it is also the only way for us to being able to trust each other. I personally don't want to play with people who need to have rules written down for them to establish what is right and wrong behavior as it clearly shows that such players don't belong here in the first place.

 

 

Ok, we are in total agreement here, just so that is clear. But I just wanna throw this out there for the sake of discussion:

 

How about new players? Would there be a point in either:

a)Having a MAMA that all new members "automatically" agree to when signing up for a game

b)Having a sticky "Game etiquette"-thread. 

 

Just a thought? Don't know if this have ever been a problem with new members but yeah, might be an idea?

 

 

It's a good suggestion, but like Verbal and Dap I have yet to see a newbie try to break a game before so I don't think the problem lies with the newer players. Everyone will make a mistake or two in mafia games, and if you read past games then you will see that almost everyone here has played in ways that could be argued as playing outside the spirit of the game, but the trick isn't to play flawless but to see when you have been wrong and learn from your mistakes.

 

 

  On 1/22/2014 at 10:13 AM, Despothera said:

 

  On 1/21/2014 at 9:36 PM, _CLOUD said:

I totally agree that such things don't belong in a mafia game, but I'm also against the idea of incorporating MAMA in our games here. The concept of the spirit of the game should be understood and argued by every mafia player because it is the only logical and true way to play these games, and it is also the only way for us to being able to trust each other. I personally don't want to play with people who need to have rules written down for them to establish what is right and wrong behavior as it clearly shows that such players don't belong here in the first place.

 

This is kind of a silly stance to take. Some of the things that get brought up are def gray areas somewhat, and sometimes mores and attitudes about certain behaviors shift.

 

For instance, do you recall the thread that brought up the lying about RL tactic? Well, there have prob been multiples of that lol. In any case, a couple of players there admitted to having no problem using the tactic (Darthe was one), until others spoke out and said how wrong they thought that was. That let them know that kind of thing was considered bad form, and those players either stopped playing here or stopped using that as a tactic.

 

I know I myself have a much different attitude about what is kosher and what isn't in mafia than when I first started, and that's mostly come from getting a feel for the community around me, as well as seeing what others have had to say about certain questionable tactics.

 

My point is, you can take this hardcore "If they don't play right, they don't belong here at all" gestapo type stance, but that's really not fair to someone who just may not see things the same way others do. That's why I think communication is good in this area, as it can help both newer players who haven't seen discussion about this sort of thing, as well as veterans from other sites who aren't quite used to what is considered acceptable here at DM.

 

 

I don't think my stance on the matter is silly. Mafia games on a forum evolve around a web of trust between the players because it is so easy to cheat on each other while playing in them. I agree with you that there is a lot of grey area, but role pm matching a feigning sickness isn't one of them because it shows that the person in question isn't able to achieve his wincon without resolving to moves that are outside the game.

 

  On 1/22/2014 at 10:16 AM, Despothera said:

A good example of how mores and attitudes can shift: the aggressive playstyles that have become fairly common nowadays NEVER would have been accepted when mafia was first starting here. And a lot of things we find almost reprehensible were actually somewhat commonplace in early DM mafia games. Stuff like OOT talk, playing against wincons, that sort of thing happened more often than I would have thought when I read some of those old ones.

 

We all have a different opinion about what level of aggressiveness is ok, but that is besides the point. As long as the aggressive playstyle of player remains within the realms of gameplay then it is still within the spirit of the game. I forgot what OOT stands for, but I haven't seen anyone here try to play against their wincon. It just sounds like an incredibly stupid thing to do.

[hazelkrs1]

OOT talk = Out Of Thread talk, as in on some kind of im or pm or something. And along with that, letting outside relationships with friends affect the game. That happened frequently as well.

 

And yeah, purposefully playing against wincons. And I think it's happened recently as well in fact...

[Leelou]

Don't get me started on playing against wincons. 

[Verbal32]

  On 1/22/2014 at 11:39 AM, Despothera said:

Aggressive play styles are much more likely to garner reactions, and pretty much the whole game is based around reactions.

 

Also, its kind of funny to me how some people will say they don't like aggressive play styles, and yet the players they favor most are generally aggressive. Why are DM's most famous mafia players generally the more aggressive type? Wombat, Kivam, Mynd, Ithi, Verbal, Jack... The list could keep on going. All of those players are generally aggressive.

 

Does it go too far sometimes? Of course. But then, it is a game designed around killing one another, and emotions are generally much more likely to fly around anyways, so it's easy to get carried away at times. I think you have MORE aggressive players nowadays, as in more players that are aggressive, but I don't think aggressive play styles are a new thing and I think they are pretty effective compared to other styles.

 

That list of players you mentioned - we are aggressive in a very different way than some "aggressive" players today.  For example, and I'm not picking on you here.....you'll criticize somebody's play and call it "terribad" or something like that.  Basically berate them into following your lead.  Does it work?  Sometimes, sure.

 

But the way we (those of us you mentioned above) are aggressive is very different from that - we'll constantly attack a point of view or post, but not a person's ability to play the game, or their mafia acumen.  Does one method work better than the other?  Debatable, for sure.  I'd call it persistent, personally.

 

 

 

  On 1/22/2014 at 2:12 PM, Leelou said:

Don't get me started on playing against wincons. 

 

Grrrrrr.

[Leelou]

  On 1/22/2014 at 3:26 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 1/22/2014 at 2:12 PM, Leelou said:

Don't get me started on playing against wincons. 

 

Grrrrrr.

 

 

I know. *sigh* 

[Niniel]

  On 1/22/2014 at 3:26 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 1/22/2014 at 11:39 AM, Despothera said:

Aggressive play styles are much more likely to garner reactions, and pretty much the whole game is based around reactions.

 

Also, its kind of funny to me how some people will say they don't like aggressive play styles, and yet the players they favor most are generally aggressive. Why are DM's most famous mafia players generally the more aggressive type? Wombat, Kivam, Mynd, Ithi, Verbal, Jack... The list could keep on going. All of those players are generally aggressive.

 

Does it go too far sometimes? Of course. But then, it is a game designed around killing one another, and emotions are generally much more likely to fly around anyways, so it's easy to get carried away at times. I think you have MORE aggressive players nowadays, as in more players that are aggressive, but I don't think aggressive play styles are a new thing and I think they are pretty effective compared to other styles.

 

That list of players you mentioned - we are aggressive in a very different way than some "aggressive" players today.  For example, and I'm not picking on you here.....you'll criticize somebody's play and call it "terribad" or something like that.  Basically berate them into following your lead.  Does it work?  Sometimes, sure.

 

But the way we (those of us you mentioned above) are aggressive is very different from that - we'll constantly attack a point of view or post, but not a person's ability to play the game, or their mafia acumen.  Does one method work better than the other?  Debatable, for sure.  I'd call it persistent, personally.

 

 

 

  On 1/22/2014 at 2:12 PM, Leelou said:

Don't get me started on playing against wincons. 

 

Grrrrrr.

 

 

I was just going to say that. Look at Wombat - he can be really persistent. But he never calls people names and try to bully them. Have you ever seen Ithi curse at someone and call them names? They managed to be aggressive without getting personal. 

[Verbal32]

Yep.  Besides, Ithi isn't even an 'older gen' player - she started playing within the last year or so.  Wombat, Kivam, Mynd, myself - we've played the way we play for years now.

 

 

I think most of the aggressiveness comes from JN.  We play that way on JN because it is part of the fun.  Nobody gets upset about it - those that have no longer play there.  Some JN players unsuccessfully tried to bring that style here, and it has stuck around a little.....which leads to the behavior we see today - a mishmash between original DM and current JN.  I'm sure some other sites are aggressive, too, but JN is the one that has impacted DM more than any other.

 

In terms of fun, I find the JN style more entertaining.  In terms of pure gameplay, I find the older DM style more fulfilling.  I find this current style to be complete crap.  That's my honest opinion, which is worth about zilch anyway, heh.

 

This is also why I spam and mess around in early game - it helps me ignore the personal side of current DM mafia, and allows me to 'get into the game' enough that I can bypass that part of the game later when it counts and my gameplay is needed.  Then I revert to old style DM and play persistently.  Again, that's just my opinion.

[_CLOUD]

Yeah I'm also not a fan of the personal side of the aggressiveness that you see nowadays around DM.

[Alanna]

  On 1/21/2014 at 9:05 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 1/21/2014 at 9:03 PM, Alanna said:

Hear, hear, Verb.

 

Hey you!  How's it going?!

 

I'm good! Glad to be back enjoying the the mafia goodness :D

 

I agree with what Verb and Tina said about those players aggressive styles being very different from the aggressive styles we get today. I've more or less gotten used to the current level of aggressiveness around here now, but I still don't wholly agree with it.

[LilyElizabeth]

I honestly don't see why all this conversation is necessary. Verb expressed my opinion very well. It's a game. Play in the spirit of gamesmanship and sportsmanship, and all will be well. I have to agree on the personal attacks, too. Not very sportsmanlike, imo. I've already expressed my opinion on criticizing after the game. If someone did that to me, I wouldn't take it lightly. I might even stop playing again. That doesn't belong in games. Again, my opinion. 

[michellem]

I disagree there; I hope that if someone feels like I did a really bad move in a game that hurt my team, someone would tell me, so that I could try and make sure it didn't happen again. It's, to me, no different from dead players discussing people's action in the dead thread. I've learnt just as much from mafia and deadies discussing my moves as from playing.

[hazelkrs1]

First off, thanks for all the kind words folks. Second- I don't go for personal attacks either. And frankly Verbal, I'm a little upset that you say that about me when you in fact got personal one time with me which actually upset me a good deal. I'm aggressive and I sometimes use harsh words or tone, but I never try to insult or call names or anything like that. If I say someone's post is terribad, it doesn't mean I think they suck at mafia, just that one post is bad. If someone is I feel hurting their team by the way they are playing, I might mention that as well, but again, I don't get personal. Its true that you might say I lack tact at times when confronting people in mafia, but eh I hope that people see that I don't truly play with any ill will towards someone else.

 

I think feelings have gotten hurt a bit more lately, but I think that's mostly coming about due to grudges that seem to last past the end of games and into new ones. Personally if I feel there's anyone that I have an actual problem with, I try and resolve it with that person after the game to make sure that we can be cool next time we play together. Mebbe others could try something similar.

 

I also think post game discussion is OK, and if someone did something that blatantly hurt their team, I don't see a problem with pointing it out, both for constructive criticism and to help understand people's motives for certain moves.