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Role pm matching/phrasing


hazelkrs1

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Posted

So this came up recently in a game on this site, but also had to be addressed in a game on another site recently, and in general I think mafia players should be more aware of the pitfalls of this tactic.

 

First, to describe what it is I'm referring to: Role pm matching is when you try to use the wording of your role pm to in any way discern who could be mafia in a game. This could be challenging another player on what their pm says, to see if they can say what matches yours. This could also be dropping hints or breadcrumbs referencing your role pm to see if others pick up on it, thereby "clearing" other townies and letting you decrease the lynch pool. It can be asking someone what their win condition is, exactly. Basically any tactic which revolves in any way around the particular way a role pm was phrased.

 

Now, I think using this tactic in mafia shows very poor taste, and goes completely against the spirit of the game. Scum can't help it that they received a diff pm, they shouldn't even have to worry about defending themselves from such attacks. It should all be about their gameplay in that thread that determines whether or not they should be fingered as mafia, NOT if they were able to respond to a pm wording challenge correctly.

 

And here's the thing.

 

IT'S NOT EVEN AN EFFECTIVE STRATEGY.

 

It's one of the easiest things in the world for a mod to post a sample vanilla town pm in the QT or something at the start of the game. I've seen several mods do this. Alternatively, if a mafioso is challenged for role pm wording, they can ask the mod (like I did in our game) and get the correct wording then. Additionally, like in this most recent example, the scum and townie pm's may be so alike that the way they're phrased allows scum to easily guess the right answer, letting them be potentially "cleared" for the rest of the game.

 

 

So yeah, pretty much plain and simple doesn't belong in mafia imo. Let me know what yall think however.

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Posted

A great deal of this sort of thing can be prevented by banning players from quoting, pasting, AND screenshotting their PM. Based on the games I've been in that allowed any of that, not explicitly banning the whole thing is just begging for your game to go badly.

Posted

Not being the most experienced player here, I'm not sure to what extent I should chip in, but I do agree that it's against the spirit of the game to use your PM in any way.

 

One thing is quoting, screenshoting etc. but also the fishing for phrases or other clues. So yeah, I agree it should be an unwritten/written rule that the only thing from your PM used is your role, and maybe paraphrased bio-info/name, if you are claiming.  

Posted

I think it's cheap and shouldn't be done. Not that I haven't been in my fair share of those discussions, but it's too easy to get carried away in a game... I'm planning on having in my rules from now on that all discussion of role PM (except for claiming characters/roles) are strictly forbidden and will result in the whole team getting punished, not just the person doing it.

Posted
  On 1/21/2014 at 2:39 PM, Darthe said:

institute something like MAMA/rules

 

This is what I'm thinking would be best. It shouldn't really be on the mod in this circumstance to make sure people can't break their game with something like this. It should be a universally accepted concept.

Posted

interesting thing about the version of the MAMA that dap had y'all sign mid game there.

 

when I searched for it I found a much longer version, and it kinda struck me funny some of the bits that weren't included.

 

fwiw I think it's a noble sentiment.

 

and from watching mafia on DM... I don't think it'll hold.

 

from vendetta strada, the full text of the MAMA:

 

  Quote

MANDATE AGAINST METAGAME ANYTHING (MAMA)

 

I understand and agree that by participating in the game:

All actions made in the game must adhere to the spirit of sportsmanship and fair play. All in-game actions are towards the in-game victory. All actions expressed in the game are without insult, ill-will, harmful intent, or personal grudges. Furthermore, any outside alliances, friendships, or other relationships will not affect any of my decisions in the game.

 

During any game, the Game Master's (and/or co-GM's and/or proxy GM's) judgments regarding the game are final, and not subject to review. This is excepted ONLY when a forum rule is broken, or under very extreme circumstances. All cases will be assessed and processed by Vendetta Strada staff members only. In these exceptions, the staff decision is then final.

 

The use of meta-game methods for collecting and disseminating information is grounds for penalization. This majorly includes (but isn't limited to):

 

Screenshots of game-related content.

Creating/using a secondary account.

Using non-players to aid you.

Threatening, extorting, bribing, or otherwise forcing/buying the behaviour of any party involved in a game to influence the outcome of a game.

Reading restricted conversation areas. (Includes, not limited to: Dead/Spectator Thread, Mafia QuickTopic, other player's role PM's, etc.)

I will always pursue the victory of my faction. I will not knowingly and/or willingly assist other factions, unless it does not interfere with my chances of victory. I will make no attempts, through any action or inaction, to knowingly hinder the efforts of others within my faction to achieve victory.

 

I will not, through any action or inaction, attempt to ruin the game's experience for others. I will not be arrogant in victory, nor contemptuous in defeat. I will be respectful toward all other players of any background and skill level.

 

The utilization of means to circumvent the phrasing of this agreement will be considered a violation. Anything determined to violate the spirit of this agreement is subject to penalties on par with a violation of any of the specific directives.

 

If for any reason it is determined that I am in violation of the MAMA, I understand that I will be penalized for my actions with or without warning, inclusive of being expelled from current and/or future games.

 

If you are incapable of abiding by this agreement, do not play the game.

 

MAFIA GAMEPLAY RULES

 

All participants must agree to the MAMA in order to play any and all rounds of Mafia.

All round-specific requests (power usage, item usage, affiliating, etc.) must be sent to the Game Master via private message. The use of instant messaging clients to request is forbidden.

Living players may not directly quote any messages they receive from the Game Master without their express consent.

Game Masters reserve the right to remove any player from their game at any time, for any reason they wish.

 

LIFE, DEATH, & ACTIVITY RULES

 

Living players may not view or post within the Dead Thread, and dead players may not post in the Living Thread. You must immediately contact the GM or a member of the staff if you have the ability to break this rule.

You may not, as a dead player/spectator, reveal round-specific information to living players.

Signing up for a round and being inactive will not be tolerated. Players are removed from a game after a duration of its GM's choosing, which cannot exceed 72 hours to maintain site efficiency.

The abuse of thread access to indiscriminately post irrelevant bulk messages is not allowed. However, you're not required to remain completely on-topic all the time. The more amusing you are, the more lenience you'll receive.

 

Posted

Yes I believe we should just take tha MAMA from Vendetta Strada (probably ask them about this first).

 

It would help a lot in playing more MAFFIA games.

Posted

Take it, agree on a basis (on what consitutes as playing within the spirit of the game) and we could have that as a basic read and requirement. 

Posted

Role PMs really shouldn't ever be brought into game play except to claim your role/character if that is allowed. I am not sure how I would feel about having to sign a MAMA to play a game. That is all pretty much a given for how you should play and not go against the spirit of the game. 

Posted

Well, it'd be nice to have some standards put down in any case.

 

Also, trying to "break" the game in any way (and especially games being breakable by roleclaims) would be nice to discourage (though that's not a simple ethics problem).

Posted
  On 1/21/2014 at 7:21 PM, Leelou said:

Role PMs really shouldn't ever be brought into game play except to claim your role/character if that is allowed. I am not sure how I would feel about having to sign a MAMA to play a game. That is all pretty much a given for how you should play and not go against the spirit of the game.

 

Yet, lots of people don't seem to get it and I did see people arguing against some of the points. What is evident for some is not evident for others.

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Posted
  On 1/21/2014 at 7:10 PM, csarmi said:

Yes I believe we should just take tha MAMA from Vendetta Strada (probably ask them about this first).

 

It would help a lot in playing more MAFFIA games.

  On 1/21/2014 at 7:26 PM, csarmi said:

Well, it'd be nice to have some standards put down in any case.

 

Also, trying to "break" the game in any way (and especially games being breakable by roleclaims) would be nice to discourage (though that's not a simple ethics problem).

 

Why?  There are standards.  We as mods have hammered it home COUNTLESS times.  If people can't play a game to have fun and just play, and they need to resort to plays that are outside the spirit of the game.....then they need to find other things to do with their time.

 

If people need to game their role PMs, fake RL sickness, play against their wincon, read previous installments of games to learn setups, etc. - it all boils down to people that should not be playing mafia.

 

You shouldn't have to sign an agreement for that.  Just play within the established (and clearly understood) rules, and have a good time.  Simple as that.

Posted
  On 1/21/2014 at 7:50 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 1/21/2014 at 7:10 PM, csarmi said:

Yes I believe we should just take tha MAMA from Vendetta Strada (probably ask them about this first).

 

It would help a lot in playing more MAFFIA games.

  On 1/21/2014 at 7:26 PM, csarmi said:

Well, it'd be nice to have some standards put down in any case.

 

Also, trying to "break" the game in any way (and especially games being breakable by roleclaims) would be nice to discourage (though that's not a simple ethics problem).

 

Why?  There are standards.  We as mods have hammered it home COUNTLESS times.  If people can't play a game to have fun and just play, and they need to resort to plays that are outside the spirit of the game.....then they need to find other things to do with their time.

 

If people need to game their role PMs, fake RL sickness, play against their wincon, read previous installments of games to learn setups, etc. - it all boils down to people that should not be playing mafia.

 

You shouldn't have to sign an agreement for that.  Just play within the established (and clearly understood) rules, and have a good time.  Simple as that.

 

 

^^ Agreed

Posted

I totally agree that such things don't belong in a mafia game, but I'm also against the idea of incorporating MAMA in our games here. The concept of the spirit of the game should be understood and argued by every mafia player because it is the only logical and true way to play these games, and it is also the only way for us to being able to trust each other. I personally don't want to play with people who need to have rules written down for them to establish what is right and wrong behavior as it clearly shows that such players don't belong here in the first place.

Posted
  On 1/21/2014 at 2:09 PM, nervositee said:

Not being the most experienced player here, I'm not sure to what extent I should chip in, but I do agree that it's against the spirit of the game to use your PM in any way.

 

One thing is quoting, screenshoting etc. but also the fishing for phrases or other clues. So yeah, I agree it should be an unwritten/written rule that the only thing from your PM used is your role, and maybe paraphrased bio-info/name, if you are claiming.  

 

I normally put in my rules that role/character claims are ok, and paraphrasing (as well as lying about parphrasing) are ok, but quoting/pasting/screenshots are not okay. So far I haven't had issues with it.

Posted
  On 1/21/2014 at 9:36 PM, _CLOUD said:

I totally agree that such things don't belong in a mafia game, but I'm also against the idea of incorporating MAMA in our games here. The concept of the spirit of the game should be understood and argued by every mafia player because it is the only logical and true way to play these games, and it is also the only way for us to being able to trust each other. I personally don't want to play with people who need to have rules written down for them to establish what is right and wrong behavior as it clearly shows that such players don't belong here in the first place.

 

 

Ok, we are in total agreement here, just so that is clear. But I just wanna throw this out there for the sake of discussion:

 

How about new players? Would there be a point in either:

a)Having a MAMA that all new members "automatically" agree to when signing up for a game

b)Having a sticky "Game etiquette"-thread. 

 

Just a thought? Don't know if this have ever been a problem with new members but yeah, might be an idea?

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