Quality Discussion Thread

[Suttree]

S

Not trying to be argumentative just wanting to know and to explain where I am coming from. Thanks!

Leaving aside info from people close to Team Jordan the Q& A at Theoryland is a great resource...

 

Brandon

Tor has decided to slice it up and release it in three segments. It's not like I've decided to write two extra books...I don't really have the call on it. But that's something different.

Brandon Sanderson

November is what we're looking at. What happened is, the final notes that Robert Jordan left behind, at his widow's direction. His widow, Harriet, was actually his editor. She discovered him as a writer first, and then she married him. She's still very heavily involved, and she's my editor on the project. She decided to take the notes and split them into three novels.

Brandon Sanderson

 

Yes, three. The split was decided by Tom, the publisher, and Harriet, who's not only Robert Jordan's wife but his editor for many years....

Brandon

The publisher and Robert Jordan’s widow decided that it should be three books and so we did split it.... There is really not much of a story there, it’s just that they decided to slice it and I said go ahead.

Brandon

At some point Tor and Harriet discussed how long it was going. And so that's when they came to me and said, "We want to split it."

Brandon

And Tom Doherty and Harriet made the call, I left it up to them, that they were going to decide how it was going to be divided or if it was going to be divided or if they were going to be printing it as one.

Brandon also argued for one book two volumes, which realistically would have been the best way to go.

If the book does end up needing to get split, Brandon would prefer for the first half to be released in October 2009 and the second in November 2009, with a leatherbound special edition of the complete book.

Bottom line however the proof is in the books. The timeline(Brandon called it "a casualty" of the split), structural issues and filler during the climax of the story are all the proof we need that this book should not have gone three. Don't think anyone would argue space was used wisely in these last three books. One book split into two volumes would have been more than sufficient. Also important to note there has been a good amount of conflicting information stated in relation to the notes etc.

[furyjkl]

Hey everyone! So real late last night I finished AMOL, and after sleeping on the ending I wanted to share some of my first thoughts.  I don’t occupy these forums much, and I want to record what’s in my head before I read the opinions of others and am influenced to think one way or another about how things wrapped up.  BTW, I have read through the series exactly once. 

Ok, so, the big one, obviously, is that Rand survives…in Moridin’s body, and now he can run off and explore the world without worry of being identified as the Dragon Reborn.  I always suspected Rand would somehow survive Tarmon Gaidon, as it was just too obvious throughout the series that his death was inevitable.  Jordan/Sanderson(I haven’t yet read up on what parts of the ending were concocted by which author) manage to keep Rand alive while still “killing” him by letting his body die.  I found Rand’s fate to be satisfactory, although I was a bit disappointed that Rand allowed Tam to think he was dead.  I feel like he owed more than that to the man.    

I feel less than satisfied over my lack of knowledge as to what happens in the bigger picture of the world now that Tarmon Gaidon is over. 

I got the impression the Seanchan took the least amount of casualties in the battle, and this leaves the other shattered kingdoms and armies in a vulnerable position, as the Seanchan Empire has a VERY different idea of how the world should be.  Sure, everyone
signed that “Dragon’s Peace” document, but Tuon made it pretty clear that as empress she did not consider herself bound by it, and she sure seemed hell-bent on world conquest.  It especially bothers me that Jordan/Sanderson left us in the dark on this matter after making such a big deal about it with the revelation of the possible future to Avienda in Rhuidian.  We still don’t know if that future was changeable or not, and that bothers me…and since I’ve also opened up the topic of the Aiel, what about the Shaido?  I was sure they were going to make another appearance in the final book.  I’m not sure if I’m glad they didn’t or not.    

I’m a big fan of killing off main characters, something The Wheel of Time has continually disappointed me on.  I definitely feel like more main characters should have died at Tarmon Gaidon.  The only main character to die was Egwene, although I guess you could argue Gawyn and Siuan count as main character deaths, as the definition of what constitutes a main character is up for debate in such an expansive series.  I think it was appropriate for Rand to survive, as his death was just too obvious throughout the series, but I think the end would have been more emotional if we had seen the deaths of at least two of the following characters in addition to Egwene: Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Elayne, Min, or Avienda.  It just seems unbelievably convenient and unrealistically rosy that they all survive.  Make me cry, damn it!    

I’m also curious about Logaine and the unprecedented glory he was supposed to attain…I mean those people were reverent to him at the end, but it wasn’t quite on the level I was picturing after Min’s prediction.  I guess that’s still to come in his future…maybe as the great leader of the Ashaman and whatever direction he takes the Black Tower.

Ok, so these are the big things that come to mind for me right after finishing the series.  I’ve only read the series once, so there may be all sorts of connections or inconsistencies that aren’t occurring to me.  After all we’ve been through as readers I feel like the ending could have left more explanation of the future….maybe a long, detailed epilogue.  The ending came across as very simple for such a dense and drawn out story.  I don’t know, maybe we would have gotten more if Jordan survived to finish.  I have to hand it to Sanderson though, he did a great job, all things considered.  He had a monumental challenge in finishing these books and tying up all of Jordan's loose ends, and he stepped up to meet it, balls out.  Whatever I ultimately feel about the end, I still consider The Wheel of Time series as my favorite books. 

[Suttree]

Actually I don't think it's silly to argue that the pace in the latter books (starting with the end of KoD) are better than say CoT. This is because of the position the story is in, so it's not something that can necessarily be used as praise for BS, but it is a strength in the books, independent of the author.

 

That was my point, sorry if I wasn't clear. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

[OneWhoMustBeLeashed]

Hey everyone! So real late last night I finished AMOL, and after sleeping on the ending I wanted to share some of my first thoughts.  I don’t occupy these forums much, and I want to record what’s in my head before I read the opinions of others and am influenced to think one way or another about how things wrapped up.  BTW, I have read through the series exactly once. 

Ok, so, the big one, obviously, is that Rand survives…in Moridin’s body, and now he can run off and explore the world without worry of being identified as the Dragon Reborn.  I always suspected Rand would somehow survive Tarmon Gaidon, as it was just too obvious throughout the series that his death was inevitable.  Jordan/Sanderson(I haven’t yet read up on what parts of the ending were concocted by which author) manage to keep Rand alive while still “killing” him by letting his body die.  I found Rand’s fate to be satisfactory, although I was a bit disappointed that Rand allowed Tam to think he was dead.  I feel like he owed more than that to the man.    

 

I feel less than satisfied over my lack of knowledge as to what happens in the bigger picture of the world now that Tarmon Gaidon is over. 

I got the impression the Seanchan took the least amount of casualties in the battle, and this leaves the other shattered kingdoms and armies in a vulnerable position, as the Seanchan Empire has a VERY different idea of how the world should be.  Sure, everyone

signed that “Dragon’s Peace” document, but Tuon made it pretty clear that as empress she did not consider herself bound by it, and she sure seemed hell-bent on world conquest.  It especially bothers me that Jordan/Sanderson left us in the dark on this matter after making such a big deal about it with the revelation of the possible future to Avienda in Rhuidian.  We still don’t know if that future was changeable or not, and that bothers me…and since I’ve also opened up the topic of the Aiel, what about the Shaido?  I was sure they were going to make another appearance in the final book.  I’m not sure if I’m glad they didn’t or not.    

I’m a big fan of killing off main characters, something The Wheel of Time has continually disappointed me on.  I definitely feel like more main characters should have died at Tarmon Gaidon.  The only main character to die was Egwene, although I guess you could argue Gawyn and Siuan count as main character deaths, as the definition of what constitutes a main character is up for debate in such an expansive series.  I think it was appropriate for Rand to survive, as his death was just too obvious throughout the series, but I think the end would have been more emotional if we had seen the deaths of at least two of the following characters in addition to Egwene: Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Elayne, Min, or Avienda.  It just seems unbelievably convenient and unrealistically rosy that they all survive.  Make me cry, damn it!    

 

I’m also curious about Logaine and the unprecedented glory he was supposed to attain…I mean those people were reverent to him at the end, but it wasn’t quite on the level I was picturing after Min’s prediction.  I guess that’s still to come in his future…maybe as the great leader of the Ashaman and whatever direction he takes the Black Tower.

 

Ok, so these are the big things that come to mind for me right after finishing the series.  I’ve only read the series once, so there may be all sorts of connections or inconsistencies that aren’t occurring to me.  After all we’ve been through as readers I feel like the ending could have left more explanation of the future….maybe a long, detailed epilogue.  The ending came across as very simple for such a dense and drawn out story.  I don’t know, maybe we would have gotten more if Jordan survived to finish.  I have to hand it to Sanderson though, he did a great job, all things considered.  He had a monumental challenge in finishing these books and tying up all of Jordan's loose ends, and he stepped up to meet it, balls out.  Whatever I ultimately feel about the end, I still consider The Wheel of Time series as my favorite books. 

 

I think the Seanchan will be busy trying to re-take their homeland at least for awhile. Hopefully, Avienda and the Wise Ones were able to alter history so that the Aiel don't get drawn into a world war with the Searchan. The Seachan should be contained as long as all the Randland nations, the Aiel,  and the White and Black Towers hold together. It would also be interesting to know the impact of Matt and the visitation of Hawking's ghost on the future of the Searchan. I would like to think a new Age of Legends is on the horizon and that national borders would become unimportant except for the purposes of local tax collection or zoning regulations. :p 

[BFG]

 

Actually I don't think it's silly to argue that the pace in the latter books (starting with the end of KoD) are better than say CoT. This is because of the position the story is in, so it's not something that can necessarily be used as praise for BS, but it is a strength in the books, independent of the author.

That was my point, sorry if I wasn't clear. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

 

I know (I stole your argument)

 

But for people that haven't read the 84 pages of thread that came before I thought I'd point out the difference between the books and the author.

[Guest Setheriel]

Hello All, first time poster, long time lurker.

After finishing Amol and taking a month to re-read and digest it, I just wanted to share my thoughts
on the ending. Now, don't get me wrong, I am grateful that BS stepped up and took on this project in
order to give us an ending, but was I satisfied with the ending we were given? That is an unfortunate resounding NO.

Unpolished prose, structural issues and flat, clunky plot movement aside, for me it was the issues with
the characters and the way certain elements were handled/portrayed that just did it in for me, so much so that
I had a hard time getting through the book and containing my cries of WTF! that would have echoed down the
halls of my apartment building, waking my neighbours at late hours, and causing me more grief than I was already feeling.

This will be long, and will be written with some humor (tongue in cheek). Due to the length, I've decided to post a few of my

criticisms at a time and post more as they come to me. Note, I am not trying to bash BS as I do like his own work. No, I just

want to express my problems with things without  too serious an undertone.


-How to make an Androl: Take 2 ounces of Knight Rider, 3 ounces of Macgyver and mix thoroughly with a pound of Batman.
Bake in oven/lava at 450c for 2 hours and top with preposterous backstory of a man who seems to have held every job
that has existed since the end of the AoL. I mean wow, this guy was so adept at everything he needed to be adept at, when he needed it
that I had trouble remembering why the hell we even needed Rand at all. Rand should have just popped his feet up in front of the
fireplace and sent Androl up to SG. He would have looked at the Bore, said "Well, I remeber this one time I was a furniture assembler at IKEA..."
and in about 2 min he would have "gatewayed" the Bore closed. I mean, why not? He did everything else concievable with a gateway, from
melting armies with lava to making breakfast. Looks to me like BS shouldn't have watched the Dark Knight trilogy before settling in to
write this guy.


-Perrin/Slayer and the Red Pill: Wow Perrin, you should have picked the blue pill my man. This battle went on for so long and got so silly that
when they were appearing and disappearing in mid-air while fighting and jumping around like it was a 4th installment of the Matrix that, had Neo
swept in and saved Perrin while Agent Smith howled at the sky from atop SG, it wouldn't have been too suprising. Another movie trilogy that
should have been on the no watch list before writing.


-Demandred and the case of the Forgotten Meds: I know that Demandred was unstable and had an all-consuming hatred for LTT. Revenge
was the only thing on his mind, not the other Forsaken, not the Sharans and not even the DO and the Last Battle. But was it really necessary
to have him running around battle fields, ranting and screaming like that guy we all try to avoid who hangs out in the subway tunnel
preaching that the end is nigh? No, to me it made him feel like a cardboard cut-out, a two dimensional character who forgot to takes his
meds before he left for the field of battle. No matter how much one worships and relies on their General, when your general starts
screaming like a schizophrenic seeing spiders come out the wall, getting in pointless duels when, with Sakarnen and a full circle he could
simply annihilate any challenger (foxhead be damned), there has to come a point when your underlings say "ok, he's lost it, the hell with this guy,
let's get out of Dodge". For me, instead of adding any depth to his character or any understanding of his feelings/motivations regarding LTT and TG,
it just made him seem like a poorly thought out cartoon character.

 

 

-Moiraine and those pesky kids: So, since the end of book 5, we have awaited the triumphant return of Moiraine, one of my personal favorite
characters in the series, and her reunion with Rand. From the time of her rescue at the end of ToM, I was ready, box of kleenex at hand for
what I thought would be one of the most emotional scenes ever written in the WoT. The scene was set, the players in place, the tent packed with
old men and sqabbling children alike. The tent flap parts and in walks Moiraine, returned from the dead! oh happy day! or not. Rand gazes upon her,
falls to his knees, rises to give her a hug... and thats it. OK, I thought, she must have a pivotal role to play, so perhaps the speech she seems
bursting to give now will be what starts the tears aflowin and the sniffles starting... but again no. Random lines of prophecy that everyone
already knows to verbally spank the misbehaving kids and thats it. OK, I think to myself, her role at SG will be absolutely crucial. It will be the
make or break of the whole last battle... if thats what you can call an extended period of kneeling and staring. Really? We couldn't come up with
anything else for one of the most important characters in the entire series than to play mom for a few paragraphs then kneel and stare for a few
more? Her role at SG could have been fulfilled by absolutely any other female channeler in the world! Good Lord.

 

More to come as I think of them. And thanks for listening to my rant. I sincerely hope no one takes offence.

[OneWhoMustBeLeashed]

Hello All, first time poster, long time lurker.

 

After finishing Amol and taking a month to re-read and digest it, I just wanted to share my thoughts

on the ending. Now, don't get me wrong, I am grateful that BS stepped up and took on this project in

order to give us an ending, but was I satisfied with the ending we were given? That is an unfortunate resounding NO.

 

Unpolished prose, structural issues and flat, clunky plot movement aside, for me it was the issues with

the characters and the way certain elements were handled/portrayed that just did it in for me, so much so that

I had a hard time getting through the book and containing my cries of WTF! that would have echoed down the

halls of my apartment building, waking my neighbours at late hours, and causing me more grief than I was already feeling.

 

This will be long, and will be written with some humor (tongue in cheek). Due to the length, I've decided to post a few of my

criticisms at a time and post more as they come to me. Note, I am not trying to bash BS as I do like his own work. No, I just

want to express my problems with things without  too serious an undertone.

 

 

-How to make an Androl: Take 2 ounces of Knight Rider, 3 ounces of Macgyver and mix thoroughly with a pound of Batman.

Bake in oven/lava at 450c for 2 hours and top with preposterous backstory of a man who seems to have held every job

that has existed since the end of the AoL. I mean wow, this guy was so adept at everything he needed to be adept at, when he needed it

that I had trouble remembering why the hell we even needed Rand at all. Rand should have just popped his feet up in front of the

fireplace and sent Androl up to SG. He would have looked at the Bore, said "Well, I remeber this one time I was a furniture assembler at IKEA..."

and in about 2 min he would have "gatewayed" the Bore closed. I mean, why not? He did everything else concievable with a gateway, from

melting armies with lava to making breakfast. Looks to me like BS shouldn't have watched the Dark Knight trilogy before settling in to

write this guy.

 

 

-Perrin/Slayer and the Red Pill: Wow Perrin, you should have picked the blue pill my man. This battle went on for so long and got so silly that

when they were appearing and disappearing in mid-air while fighting and jumping around like it was a 4th installment of the Matrix that, had Neo

swept in and saved Perrin while Agent Smith howled at the sky from atop SG, it wouldn't have been too suprising. Another movie trilogy that

should have been on the no watch list before writing.

 

 

-Demandred and the case of the Forgotten Meds: I know that Demandred was unstable and had an all-consuming hatred for LTT. Revenge

was the only thing on his mind, not the other Forsaken, not the Sharans and not even the DO and the Last Battle. But was it really necessary

to have him running around battle fields, ranting and screaming like that guy we all try to avoid who hangs out in the subway tunnel

preaching that the end is nigh? No, to me it made him feel like a cardboard cut-out, a two dimensional character who forgot to takes his

meds before he left for the field of battle. No matter how much one worships and relies on their General, when your general starts

screaming like a schizophrenic seeing spiders come out the wall, getting in pointless duels when, with Sakarnen and a full circle he could

simply annihilate any challenger (foxhead be damned), there has to come a point when your underlings say "ok, he's lost it, the hell with this guy,

let's get out of Dodge". For me, instead of adding any depth to his character or any understanding of his feelings/motivations regarding LTT and TG,

it just made him seem like a poorly thought out cartoon character.

 

 

-Moiraine and those pesky kids: So, since the end of book 5, we have awaited the triumphant return of Moiraine, one of my personal favorite

characters in the series, and her reunion with Rand. From the time of her rescue at the end of ToM, I was ready, box of kleenex at hand for

what I thought would be one of the most emotional scenes ever written in the WoT. The scene was set, the players in place, the tent packed with

old men and sqabbling children alike. The tent flap parts and in walks Moiraine, returned from the dead! oh happy day! or not. Rand gazes upon her,

falls to his knees, rises to give her a hug... and thats it. OK, I thought, she must have a pivotal role to play, so perhaps the speech she seems

bursting to give now will be what starts the tears aflowin and the sniffles starting... but again no. Random lines of prophecy that everyone

already knows to verbally spank the misbehaving kids and thats it. OK, I think to myself, her role at SG will be absolutely crucial. It will be the

make or break of the whole last battle... if thats what you can call an extended period of kneeling and staring. Really? We couldn't come up with

anything else for one of the most important characters in the entire series than to play mom for a few paragraphs then kneel and stare for a few

more? Her role at SG could have been fulfilled by absolutely any other female channeler in the world! Good Lord.

 

More to come as I think of them. And thanks for listening to my rant. I sincerely hope no one takes offence.

 

I had an opposite reaction, but I guess there is no disputing taste. :p

 

@ Androl -- I thought he was a great addition to the series. The whole "Midaclorian court" ethos in fantasy gets bothersome. It was nice to see someone use creativity to leverage a limited amount of power to do great things. It even kind of makes sense that only someone in Androl's unique position would be likely to develop such creative new uses of the power. Super powerful channelers don't need to be creative. They can level mountains with brute force. Weak channelers who lack a talent for gateways couldn't use gateways in creative new ways. Androl had one trick, but it was a good one. I agree that the lava gateway thing was a bit over-the-top (why not just repeat that again at the other battlefields), but otherwise I enjoyed Androl. Also, his relationship with Pevera was cute and touching. They simultaneously tried to bind one-another as a means of control, but ended up with a uniquely intimate connection. It was nice to see that someone from the Red Ajah could come to trust a male channeler so completely.

 

@Perrin -- It's not just the Matrix. I'm pretty sure that sort of "bullet time" was possible in WoT before the Matrix was released in 1998-1999. Also, Dan Simmons (one of the very best Sci Fi writers ever) used a similar concept in Hyperion and Endymion.

 

@ Demandred -- Yeah he was crazy. I wish he hadn't screamed like an idiot. But maybe you have to be intensely crazy to give your soul to the Dark One in the first place. I did like the duels though. It was like the heroic combat in the Iliad, or like the plot of a kung fu movie where hero after hero is killed by the big boss, until the greatest hero prevails. I think it would have been a nice addition if there had been something in the Bao the Wyld mythology that required him to accept all duel. Something like, "Bao the Wyld is one with the land, and never fears or refuses a challenge."

 

@ Morraine -- I agree that she was anticlimactic (like Fain). The problem was that  there were too many important characters. The whole book would have been filled with duels like the Demandred sequence if each hero and villain were afforded his or her own proper resolution. This could have been fixed by simply inserting a line in the Epilogue, having Rand silently thank Morraine for helping him with the body switch.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

I agree with both points about Androl: it got to be annoying that he had done everything and was good at everything. At the same time, I agree that it would be a weaker channeler who would come up with innovative ways to do things. Maximizing the power he had was the choice available to him. The Soviets did much the same thing with their technology, made the most of the least to save on cost. Look at the AK-47.

[jjp]

Androl - too much of a good thing.

[Charred Knight]

I agree with both points about Androl: it got to be annoying that he had done everything and was good at everything. At the same time, I agree that it would be a weaker channeler who would come up with innovative ways to do things. Maximizing the power he had was the choice available to him. The Soviets did much the same thing with their technology, made the most of the least to save on cost. Look at the AK-47.

Thats basically it

 

Androl is a great idea, and he was great in ToM, but in this book all of a sudden his just thrust into the main character of the Black Tower storyline with Logain being leader simply because he was the main character when Robert Jordan wrote it.  He goes from being a minor character in a small (but important) story arc into being on par storywise with Lan and Egwene.

 

It undermined the story arc because it makes it hard to believe that Logain could ever reach glory when he gets upstaged by Androl in the last book.

 

As for Androl working at an IKEA: No way, with the way Sanderson wrote Androl in AMoL Androl would know how to seal the bore because he was trained in the art of Masonry from Ogier (the only human ever taught Ogier Masonry).

[Rhienne]

I agree with both points about Androl: it got to be annoying that he had done everything and was good at everything. At the same time, I agree that it would be a weaker channeler who would come up with innovative ways to do things. Maximizing the power he had was the choice available to him. The Soviets did much the same thing with their technology, made the most of the least to save on cost. Look at the AK-47.

 

Androl - too much of a good thing.

Agreed.  I am torn between really liking Androl as a character.  The scenes between him and Pevara had the only meaningful character interaction and development in the entire book (something that was sorely lacking).  He was well written, a bit different from the other characters, and I found his storyline really exciting.  Unfortunately at the same time, I felt like I was reading an alternative universe where Rand and Logain were replaced by one character.  I think it was a mistake to bring a minor character to such prominence over the space of 2 books when the end of the series is already struggling (and in some cases failing) to do justice to the characters that we have become attached to over decades. 

 

It galls me to look at the POVs and see that Androl had more screen time than: Talmanes, Galad, Min, Faile, Logain, Loial, Gawyn, Nynaeve, Birgitte, Cadsuane, Moiraine, Siuan, Thom.  Pevara also had more screen time than all of those apart from Talmanes.  When you look at the combined Pevara-Androl arc they had more screen time than everyone except Rand, Mat, Perrin, and Egwene.  Ridiculous.

[Malruhn]

I finished just a few moments ago.

 

What an amazing ride!

 

I was breathless for almost the entire 900+ pages. It was the last half-second before orgasm... for the four days (hey, I work more than full time!) that I was reading it.

 

And now... I am thoroughly satisfied. It was a solid book, a solid story, and wrapped up as much as I would have liked, while leaving enough loose ends to make it apparent that life goes on.

 

If I can have a complaint - it's been the same for the last two BS books... Robert Jordan was heavily into Freemasonry and the entire mythos involved in the fraternity. In EVERY book he wrote in this series, there have been references or direct "rip offs" to supposed Masonic history or myth.  In the two BS books... nada.

 

Pretty weak complaint, eh?

 

I'm happy. Now I can continue my life.

[Kahsm]

@ Morraine -- I agree that she was anticlimactic (like Fain). The problem was that  there were too many important characters. The whole book would have been filled with duels like the Demandred sequence if each hero and villain were afforded his or her own proper resolution. This could have been fixed by simply inserting a line in the Epilogue, having Rand silently thank Morraine for helping him with the body switch.

I don't think the books would have lost anything had Gawyn and Galad scenes not ever happened. Have Gawyn die to being retarded and just reaching the end of his rings while he kills a bajillion guys on the front line in a cool death spasm. Egwene's story continues as per normal. Have Galad go around wtfpwning channelers, maybe Gawyn goes crazy or something and there's a short scene where Galad has to fend him off if you really want to prove galad is better than Gawyn with 3 ter'angreal (which I think is the whole ridiculous point of the Demandred shit). Or better yet, have Gawyn accidently run galad through in his death throws. Bam, we're back on trak with Gawyn dead and Galad wounded. And then Lan goes and kills Demandred and you can do a longer less repetitive feeling fight scene. And probably saved some time for Mori.

 

Man I should write this stuff.

[Vambram]

I am unaware of any hints or links toward Freemasonry and the myths and backgrounds which RJ alluded to in his WOT books.

[Suttree]

RJ was a freemason, here is a pretty good article on the topic...

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/freemasonry-and-wheel-of-time.html

[Vambram]

Thank you, Suttree.

[NitroS]

Hello All, first time poster, long time lurker.

 

After finishing Amol and taking a month to re-read and digest it, I just wanted to share my thoughts

on the ending. Now, don't get me wrong, I am grateful that BS stepped up and took on this project in

order to give us an ending, but was I satisfied with the ending we were given? That is an unfortunate resounding NO.

 

Unpolished prose, structural issues and flat, clunky plot movement aside, for me it was the issues with

the characters and the way certain elements were handled/portrayed that just did it in for me, so much so that

I had a hard time getting through the book and containing my cries of WTF! that would have echoed down the

halls of my apartment building, waking my neighbours at late hours, and causing me more grief than I was already feeling.

 

This will be long, and will be written with some humor (tongue in cheek). Due to the length, I've decided to post a few of my

criticisms at a time and post more as they come to me. Note, I am not trying to bash BS as I do like his own work. No, I just

want to express my problems with things without  too serious an undertone.

 

 

-How to make an Androl: Take 2 ounces of Knight Rider, 3 ounces of Macgyver and mix thoroughly with a pound of Batman.

Bake in oven/lava at 450c for 2 hours and top with preposterous backstory of a man who seems to have held every job

that has existed since the end of the AoL. I mean wow, this guy was so adept at everything he needed to be adept at, when he needed it

that I had trouble remembering why the hell we even needed Rand at all. Rand should have just popped his feet up in front of the

fireplace and sent Androl up to SG. He would have looked at the Bore, said "Well, I remeber this one time I was a furniture assembler at IKEA..."

and in about 2 min he would have "gatewayed" the Bore closed. I mean, why not? He did everything else concievable with a gateway, from

melting armies with lava to making breakfast. Looks to me like BS shouldn't have watched the Dark Knight trilogy before settling in to

write this guy.

 

 

-Perrin/Slayer and the Red Pill: Wow Perrin, you should have picked the blue pill my man. This battle went on for so long and got so silly that

when they were appearing and disappearing in mid-air while fighting and jumping around like it was a 4th installment of the Matrix that, had Neo

swept in and saved Perrin while Agent Smith howled at the sky from atop SG, it wouldn't have been too suprising. Another movie trilogy that

should have been on the no watch list before writing.

 

 

-Demandred and the case of the Forgotten Meds: I know that Demandred was unstable and had an all-consuming hatred for LTT. Revenge

was the only thing on his mind, not the other Forsaken, not the Sharans and not even the DO and the Last Battle. But was it really necessary

to have him running around battle fields, ranting and screaming like that guy we all try to avoid who hangs out in the subway tunnel

preaching that the end is nigh? No, to me it made him feel like a cardboard cut-out, a two dimensional character who forgot to takes his

meds before he left for the field of battle. No matter how much one worships and relies on their General, when your general starts

screaming like a schizophrenic seeing spiders come out the wall, getting in pointless duels when, with Sakarnen and a full circle he could

simply annihilate any challenger (foxhead be damned), there has to come a point when your underlings say "ok, he's lost it, the hell with this guy,

let's get out of Dodge". For me, instead of adding any depth to his character or any understanding of his feelings/motivations regarding LTT and TG,

it just made him seem like a poorly thought out cartoon character.

 

 

-Moiraine and those pesky kids: So, since the end of book 5, we have awaited the triumphant return of Moiraine, one of my personal favorite

characters in the series, and her reunion with Rand. From the time of her rescue at the end of ToM, I was ready, box of kleenex at hand for

what I thought would be one of the most emotional scenes ever written in the WoT. The scene was set, the players in place, the tent packed with

old men and sqabbling children alike. The tent flap parts and in walks Moiraine, returned from the dead! oh happy day! or not. Rand gazes upon her,

falls to his knees, rises to give her a hug... and thats it. OK, I thought, she must have a pivotal role to play, so perhaps the speech she seems

bursting to give now will be what starts the tears aflowin and the sniffles starting... but again no. Random lines of prophecy that everyone

already knows to verbally spank the misbehaving kids and thats it. OK, I think to myself, her role at SG will be absolutely crucial. It will be the

make or break of the whole last battle... if thats what you can call an extended period of kneeling and staring. Really? We couldn't come up with

anything else for one of the most important characters in the entire series than to play mom for a few paragraphs then kneel and stare for a few

more? Her role at SG could have been fulfilled by absolutely any other female channeler in the world! Good Lord.

 

More to come as I think of them. And thanks for listening to my rant. I sincerely hope no one takes offence.

Dont worry about a lot of loose ends being open i suspect we will get the majority of the answers in the encyclopedia and for everything that doesnt get resolved means that robert jordan didnt leave notes on. For example i believe brandon said robert jordan didnt even explain in his notes how rand lit his pipe. I also dont think that the future of the any of the characters were written it was all left up for fandom making.

 

Imagine how big this universe could have been if RJ lived.

 

3 outriggers on the retaking of seanchan. 3 prequels.

Probably a outrigger on Shara. Although i dont think

we would have ever gotten a book on the age of legends

it would have destroyed the mystery of that age and would

have only been a let down after the build up for it.

[Lord D]

Amazon's reviews have 708 5-star and 131 4-star.  It then has 68 3-star, 31 2-star and a massive 332 1-star reviews.  However, it appears that a huge proportion of these 1-star reviews are by people complaining that the book isn't out on Kindle yet.  If these were taken out, the book's average rating would increase from 3.7 stars to at least 4, maybe even 4.5 stars.  So I think the big majority of people who actually read the book liked it a lot, which was certainly my reaction to the book.  Reading this thread, there are some inconsistencies, but I didn't really notice when reading initially, and I thought the battle scenes were well done, with parts where you thought the Light could actually lose.  I liked Rand's different worlds vision discussion with the DO.

[Vambram]

Amazon's reviews have 708 5-star and 131 4-star.  It then has 68 3-star, 31 2-star and a massive 332 1-star reviews.  However, it appears that a huge proportion of these 1-star reviews are by people complaining that the book isn't out on Kindle yet.  If these were taken out, the book's average rating would increase from 3.7 stars to at least 4, maybe even 4.5 stars.  So I think the big majority of people who actually read the book liked it a lot, which was certainly my reaction to the book.  Reading this thread, there are some inconsistencies, but I didn't really notice when reading initially, and I thought the battle scenes were well done, with parts where you thought the Light could actually lose.  I liked Rand's different worlds vision discussion with the DO.

 

I give AMOL a 5 star rating. By going with the numbers from the Amazon reviews and not factoring in the 1 star reviews where the vast majority of them are complainers about the e-book, then there have been on Amazon a total of 938 reviewers rating A Memory of Light with an average of 4.61  

I don't know about y'all, but that sounds like to me that AMOL has been very well received and liked, despite some of the problems in the book.

[Lord D]

 

Amazon's reviews have 708 5-star and 131 4-star.  It then has 68 3-star, 31 2-star and a massive 332 1-star reviews.  However, it appears that a huge proportion of these 1-star reviews are by people complaining that the book isn't out on Kindle yet.  If these were taken out, the book's average rating would increase from 3.7 stars to at least 4, maybe even 4.5 stars.  So I think the big majority of people who actually read the book liked it a lot, which was certainly my reaction to the book.  Reading this thread, there are some inconsistencies, but I didn't really notice when reading initially, and I thought the battle scenes were well done, with parts where you thought the Light could actually lose.  I liked Rand's different worlds vision discussion with the DO.

 

I give AMOL a 5 star rating. By going with the numbers from the Amazon reviews and not factoring in the 1 star reviews where the vast majority of them are complainers about the e-book, then there have been on Amazon a total of 938 reviewers rating A Memory of Light with an average of 4.61  

I don't know about y'all, but that sounds like to me that AMOL has been very well received and liked, despite some of the problems in the book.

I don't think you should discard ALL of the 1-star ratings, since some of these are genuine.  If we assume that 25% of the 332 1-stars are genuine, that means 83 genuine 1-star ratings.  Recalculating the average then gives 4.3 as an avg rating, which is pretty good.

[Vambram]

4.3 is a very good average. Yet, if the fans here on this discussion board were polled, then I believe that the average rating would be down below a 3.0 which is unfortunate, in my opinion.

 

Perhaps its because dragonmounters might have been expecting too much? I don't know, but I'm just speculating about that.

[rane008]

4.3 is a very good average. Yet, if the fans here on this discussion board were polled, then I believe that the average rating would be down below a 3.0 which is unfortunate, in my opinion.

 

Perhaps its because dragonmounters might have been expecting too much? I don't know, but I'm just speculating about that.

Vambram!  You're back!  SOOOO stoked.

 

I know you like to think that DM'ers were expecting too much, but as many on this topic have stated repeatedly, our main issues with the book are NOT subjective, but objective.  Fanboi goggles may allow you to ignore the actual editing errors, continuity issues, mischaracterizations, bulky prose, and timeline clusterf*cks, but for many of us, they ruin the book.  We are fans fo this series just like everyone else, and we wanted at least a decent book to wrap it up.  TOM was a waste of time, and AMOL just carries on that legacy.

[capuga]

 

Amazon's reviews have 708 5-star and 131 4-star.  It then has 68 3-star, 31 2-star and a massive 332 1-star reviews.  However, it appears that a huge proportion of these 1-star reviews are by people complaining that the book isn't out on Kindle yet.  If these were taken out, the book's average rating would increase from 3.7 stars to at least 4, maybe even 4.5 stars.  So I think the big majority of people who actually read the book liked it a lot, which was certainly my reaction to the book.  Reading this thread, there are some inconsistencies, but I didn't really notice when reading initially, and I thought the battle scenes were well done, with parts where you thought the Light could actually lose.  I liked Rand's different worlds vision discussion with the DO.

 

I give AMOL a 5 star rating. By going with the numbers from the Amazon reviews and not factoring in the 1 star reviews where the vast majority of them are complainers about the e-book, then there have been on Amazon a total of 938 reviewers rating A Memory of Light with an average of 4.61  

I don't know about y'all, but that sounds like to me that AMOL has been very well received and liked, despite some of the problems in the book.

Which is something I've often tried to point out. The online community is a very, very small percentage of the fans/readers of this series. Which is why I never bought the "RJ changed his mind of Taim being Demandred because the fans guessed it" or "The fans are so upset with Brandon's writing" type of things. The vast, vast majority of the fans/readers never knew about the Taimandred theory so why would RJ feel compelled to change his plot? Based on those ratings, most readers are satisfied with Brandon's books in the series. 95% of the people reading these books likely have never been to one of these fansites.

[Suttree]

I only made it through the first 10 pages pages, roughly 100 out the 332 1 star reviews and only got 5 mentions of e-books. It is all talking about faults with the writing. How did anyone come up with the "vast majority" having to do with the e-book? That is simply not ture.

[David Selig]

I only made it through the first 10 pages pages, roughly 100 out the 332 1 star reviews and only got 5 mentions of e-books. It is all talking about faults with the writing. How did anyone come up with the "vast majority" having to do with the e-book? That is simply not ture.

 Things must've changes a lot lately, I remember checking the reviews about a week after it came out, of the 70 one star reviews only 2 mentioned the content of the book at all, all the others were "I haven't read it, but no e-book version = 1 star review"