Quality Discussion Thread

[MarkDiLillo]

 

 

 

 

 

 

@mik, markD

 

Regarding dropped plot points... The 2 that MarkD seems most upset by (as a result of them being introduced in Towers by BS) are Verins letters and Alanna. Verin's letters (based on interviews) was purposefully left out so you can agree/disagree with the decision but it wasn't forgotten. About this I agree with you, it would have been better to either leave out the letters or say something of what they contained.

 

However I completely disagree with you about the Alanna one. For me that was resolved to the exact degree it needed to be. Knowing earlier that Moridin had captured her or not would have ruined the suspense. Once she was already there, her last actions answered the question of whether or not she was a Darkfriend (at least it was sufficient for me)... The only way I can see that she could have been involved more and to not ruin the suspense would be to maybe see a scene of her fighting in Kandor, which would have answered where she was, given a suggestion of what was in her letter from Verin, but would also answer if she was a DF or not (at this stage fighting for the Light would suggest that you're not) and ruin that tension. Additionally either she's shown to be fine although fighting at which stage she's forgotten about or she's captured and their goes the tension (personal preference, but I always find the unknown more suspenseful than the known), it also gives us more fighting (and I've only read a few people that say they wanted that). Maybe I've missed options here?

 

Moiraine is another one.

 

And Verin's letters was not intentionally left out.  Brandon is acting like that was his intention so he doesn't look like a total fool in front of people during signings.  He forgot them.  Or else we would have had one sentence somewhere in the 900-some page book that referenced them at least once.

 

As for Alanna - I disagree with you.  The way her plot was handled felt like "oh crap I forgot about Alanna...brb gimme 5 min and ill fix it."

I appreciate that their are more - as others have said on the Moiraine pages - her necessity was at FoM, she was the only person that could have salvaged that meeting as she was the only 1 that both Eg and Rand trusted enough. Eg didn't trust Cads and in fact believed that anybody that spent time with him got caught up in his taveran affect, Rand didn't trust the WT or their machinations that ruled out everybody that hadn't been 'dead' for the past several books. This is highlighted when Eg thinks that Cads relationship with Rand is a 'problem that needs looking at' and her thoughts re Elayne & Nyn. The legend that's been built around Moiraine allowed everyone else to respect her as well, witness Grady(? one of the Ashaman, not personally connected with her (that I remember)) to 'defend' her against glib comments.

 

Don't get me wrong, the FoM scene was a mess, with both Eg and Rand backtracking on several points re seals and armies and generally reads very poorly, but Moiraines role was 'solid' (not sure that's the right word). The reason I left it out was because it wasn't a situation that BS set up and thus didn't seem as 'personally insulting' (again, appreciate I may be overstating your reaction somewhat) to you.

 

Additionally I don't believe that we were ever going to get the Finns responses to all the questions/requests, but I don't know the database well enough to pull out a quote. Either way, if they were in RJs notes to be included in the book they would have been, so I have to conclude that they aren't important to the narrative *shrugs* (I know that BS and Harriet had to invent an awful lot, but you're going to have to provide a lot of evidence for me to believe that they left stuff out that he wanted included.

 

 

The letters is entirely your own thought. BS has openly admitted to forgetting characters like Dobraine, so I see no reason to disbelieve him about this. As I said, I think it fails, but I don't think it's fair to say he's forgotten about them.

 

 

I can understand that other people feel that Alanna was poorly handled. I can't think of a way that it would work better, and regardless it worked for me. It's another thing that's come full circle - Alanna has been a ticking bomb ever since she bonded Rand, it went off (in a big way). Nyn's revert to herbs is another 'throw-back'/'nod' to tEotW, specifically that they proved value in front of Moiraine, who has been Nyn's guide?ideal?competition? (really not sure of teh word to describe their relationship) since they met. What information do you want here, or perhaps what information is needed and why? How should it have been portrayed, when? As I said, I can't think of a better way.

 

If we were never going to get answers regarding Moiraine's (or Lanfear's) wishes, and we were never going to hear again about Verin's letters...then why put them in the last book?  Why show Alanna vanishing after having just opened Verin's letter?  Why show an Aes Sedai give Rand a letter during his meeting at the WT?  Why mention that there were others?  Why even have a whole section of dialogue with Moiraine mentioning her wishes when nobody really expected her to receive any?

 

If all of that was just random filler then it could have been easily wrapped up with literally two sentences in this last book.  Those sentences aren't there and therefor the multitude of unanswered questions remains.  They are not just open ended plots left alive to show the world will be alive; these were issues that were strongly hinted as being important to the conclusion somehow.

[MarkDiLillo]

Hmm. Ok, i see... thx. But why is it bad, take away the choice to do evil?

 

Like Rand says in the end....without choice we aren't people.  We're just puppets.  Free will is our greatest gift.

[Tsukibana]

Because it is through choosing NOT to do evil that we show our greatness.

No choice, Nothing to rise above.

[Elathan]

If he loose a little more friend, maybe he wouldn't chose this solution.

Being puppet? I don't think so. I mean i can do a lot of thing without doing any evil

 

So we must have evil, by this way we can be relative good?

There isn't just good and evil, there is also stupidity - everyone forgives it always, but i think it is important.

[BFG]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@mik, markD

 

Regarding dropped plot points... The 2 that MarkD seems most upset by (as a result of them being introduced in Towers by BS) are Verins letters and Alanna. Verin's letters (based on interviews) was purposefully left out so you can agree/disagree with the decision but it wasn't forgotten. About this I agree with you, it would have been better to either leave out the letters or say something of what they contained.

 

However I completely disagree with you about the Alanna one. For me that was resolved to the exact degree it needed to be. Knowing earlier that Moridin had captured her or not would have ruined the suspense. Once she was already there, her last actions answered the question of whether or not she was a Darkfriend (at least it was sufficient for me)... The only way I can see that she could have been involved more and to not ruin the suspense would be to maybe see a scene of her fighting in Kandor, which would have answered where she was, given a suggestion of what was in her letter from Verin, but would also answer if she was a DF or not (at this stage fighting for the Light would suggest that you're not) and ruin that tension. Additionally either she's shown to be fine although fighting at which stage she's forgotten about or she's captured and their goes the tension (personal preference, but I always find the unknown more suspenseful than the known), it also gives us more fighting (and I've only read a few people that say they wanted that). Maybe I've missed options here?

 

Moiraine is another one.

 

And Verin's letters was not intentionally left out.  Brandon is acting like that was his intention so he doesn't look like a total fool in front of people during signings.  He forgot them.  Or else we would have had one sentence somewhere in the 900-some page book that referenced them at least once.

 

As for Alanna - I disagree with you.  The way her plot was handled felt like "oh crap I forgot about Alanna...brb gimme 5 min and ill fix it."

I appreciate that their are more - as others have said on the Moiraine pages - her necessity was at FoM, she was the only person that could have salvaged that meeting as she was the only 1 that both Eg and Rand trusted enough. Eg didn't trust Cads and in fact believed that anybody that spent time with him got caught up in his taveran affect, Rand didn't trust the WT or their machinations that ruled out everybody that hadn't been 'dead' for the past several books. This is highlighted when Eg thinks that Cads relationship with Rand is a 'problem that needs looking at' and her thoughts re Elayne & Nyn. The legend that's been built around Moiraine allowed everyone else to respect her as well, witness Grady(? one of the Ashaman, not personally connected with her (that I remember)) to 'defend' her against glib comments.

 

Don't get me wrong, the FoM scene was a mess, with both Eg and Rand backtracking on several points re seals and armies and generally reads very poorly, but Moiraines role was 'solid' (not sure that's the right word). The reason I left it out was because it wasn't a situation that BS set up and thus didn't seem as 'personally insulting' (again, appreciate I may be overstating your reaction somewhat) to you.

 

Additionally I don't believe that we were ever going to get the Finns responses to all the questions/requests, but I don't know the database well enough to pull out a quote. Either way, if they were in RJs notes to be included in the book they would have been, so I have to conclude that they aren't important to the narrative *shrugs* (I know that BS and Harriet had to invent an awful lot, but you're going to have to provide a lot of evidence for me to believe that they left stuff out that he wanted included.

 

 

The letters is entirely your own thought. BS has openly admitted to forgetting characters like Dobraine, so I see no reason to disbelieve him about this. As I said, I think it fails, but I don't think it's fair to say he's forgotten about them.

 

 

I can understand that other people feel that Alanna was poorly handled. I can't think of a way that it would work better, and regardless it worked for me. It's another thing that's come full circle - Alanna has been a ticking bomb ever since she bonded Rand, it went off (in a big way). Nyn's revert to herbs is another 'throw-back'/'nod' to tEotW, specifically that they proved value in front of Moiraine, who has been Nyn's guide?ideal?competition? (really not sure of teh word to describe their relationship) since they met. What information do you want here, or perhaps what information is needed and why? How should it have been portrayed, when? As I said, I can't think of a better way.

 

If we were never going to get answers regarding Moiraine's (or Lanfear's) wishes, and we were never going to hear again about Verin's letters...then why put them in the last book?  Why show Alanna vanishing after having just opened Verin's letter?  Why show an Aes Sedai give Rand a letter during his meeting at the WT?  Why mention that there were others?  Why even have a whole section of dialogue with Moiraine mentioning her wishes when nobody really expected her to receive any?

 

If all of that was just random filler then it could have been easily wrapped up with literally two sentences in this last book.  Those sentences aren't there and therefor the multitude of unanswered questions remains.  They are not just open ended plots left alive to show the world will be alive; these were issues that were strongly hinted as being important to the conclusion somehow.

I'm not going to argue this longer because I agree with you about the letters. I can't answer about teh Finns, the interview that was quoted was before aMoL was released so may have just referred to her questions and not the requests, it doesn't bother me that they were left out. Since Moiraine believed she couldn't ask about the DO I find it unlikely that her questions/requests touched on this. The little we know of Rand's questions (or can infer) suggests that Moiraines beliefs were wrong, but that's not going to affect what Moiraine asked for.

 

Back to Alanna, all I can do at this stage is repeat that I can understand that other people (apparantly many other people :) ) are frustrated about this. It was dealt with in a way that satisfied me, so regardless of whether or not it was an afterthought it worked, for me.

 

Thinking about it and I (strongly) suspect my answers won't satisfy anyone taht's unhappy with this stuff:

 

One reason to show Moiraines wishes is that it makes it possible for her to be weak and strong in the Power - we have an idea from Lanfear that they come out significantly weaker than before. By giving Moiraine the angreal it explains how she was able to survive longer than Lanfear, it also gives her and Thom both opportunities to show how much they love each other, corny as hell, but hey :)

[BFG]

 

 

 

 

 

 

@mik, markD

 

Regarding dropped plot points... The 2 that MarkD seems most upset by (as a result of them being introduced in Towers by BS) are Verins letters and Alanna. Verin's letters (based on interviews) was purposefully left out so you can agree/disagree with the decision but it wasn't forgotten. About this I agree with you, it would have been better to either leave out the letters or say something of what they contained.

 

However I completely disagree with you about the Alanna one. For me that was resolved to the exact degree it needed to be. Knowing earlier that Moridin had captured her or not would have ruined the suspense. Once she was already there, her last actions answered the question of whether or not she was a Darkfriend (at least it was sufficient for me)... The only way I can see that she could have been involved more and to not ruin the suspense would be to maybe see a scene of her fighting in Kandor, which would have answered where she was, given a suggestion of what was in her letter from Verin, but would also answer if she was a DF or not (at this stage fighting for the Light would suggest that you're not) and ruin that tension. Additionally either she's shown to be fine although fighting at which stage she's forgotten about or she's captured and their goes the tension (personal preference, but I always find the unknown more suspenseful than the known), it also gives us more fighting (and I've only read a few people that say they wanted that). Maybe I've missed options here?

 

Moiraine is another one.

 

And Verin's letters was not intentionally left out.  Brandon is acting like that was his intention so he doesn't look like a total fool in front of people during signings.  He forgot them.  Or else we would have had one sentence somewhere in the 900-some page book that referenced them at least once.

 

As for Alanna - I disagree with you.  The way her plot was handled felt like "oh crap I forgot about Alanna...brb gimme 5 min and ill fix it."

Moiraine in AMoL was appallingly bad. It totally ruined her character and -again-, if you have any love for WoT, noone in their right mind would write about her like that.

 

Alanna was a sidenote in the story. Felt like BS wrote about her just so he could cross another remark by Team Jordan off of his checklist. "Alanna"... *sqribbles 10 lines of text* "Check!"..

 

There was so much missing, it's uncanny... the ways... machin shin... sea folk.. (Bargain, Harine, prophecy, Moad (fd @ TGH gathering?)..etc ..etc)...I'll make a complete list when I have more time..

 

I agree that Moiraine was written badly, the best written part about her was Thom's reflecting on her determination when he guarded the cave. The entire FoM sequence was poor.

 

As I've said, for me the Alanna plot line worked *shrugs* I didn't need any more story to it.

 

I'll be interested in that list

[rqstnnlitnmnt]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@mik, markD

 

Regarding dropped plot points... The 2 that MarkD seems most upset by (as a result of them being introduced in Towers by BS) are Verins letters and Alanna. Verin's letters (based on interviews) was purposefully left out so you can agree/disagree with the decision but it wasn't forgotten. About this I agree with you, it would have been better to either leave out the letters or say something of what they contained.

 

However I completely disagree with you about the Alanna one. For me that was resolved to the exact degree it needed to be. Knowing earlier that Moridin had captured her or not would have ruined the suspense. Once she was already there, her last actions answered the question of whether or not she was a Darkfriend (at least it was sufficient for me)... The only way I can see that she could have been involved more and to not ruin the suspense would be to maybe see a scene of her fighting in Kandor, which would have answered where she was, given a suggestion of what was in her letter from Verin, but would also answer if she was a DF or not (at this stage fighting for the Light would suggest that you're not) and ruin that tension. Additionally either she's shown to be fine although fighting at which stage she's forgotten about or she's captured and their goes the tension (personal preference, but I always find the unknown more suspenseful than the known), it also gives us more fighting (and I've only read a few people that say they wanted that). Maybe I've missed options here?

 

Moiraine is another one.

 

And Verin's letters was not intentionally left out.  Brandon is acting like that was his intention so he doesn't look like a total fool in front of people during signings.  He forgot them.  Or else we would have had one sentence somewhere in the 900-some page book that referenced them at least once.

 

As for Alanna - I disagree with you.  The way her plot was handled felt like "oh crap I forgot about Alanna...brb gimme 5 min and ill fix it."

I appreciate that their are more - as others have said on the Moiraine pages - her necessity was at FoM, she was the only person that could have salvaged that meeting as she was the only 1 that both Eg and Rand trusted enough. Eg didn't trust Cads and in fact believed that anybody that spent time with him got caught up in his taveran affect, Rand didn't trust the WT or their machinations that ruled out everybody that hadn't been 'dead' for the past several books. This is highlighted when Eg thinks that Cads relationship with Rand is a 'problem that needs looking at' and her thoughts re Elayne & Nyn. The legend that's been built around Moiraine allowed everyone else to respect her as well, witness Grady(? one of the Ashaman, not personally connected with her (that I remember)) to 'defend' her against glib comments.

 

Don't get me wrong, the FoM scene was a mess, with both Eg and Rand backtracking on several points re seals and armies and generally reads very poorly, but Moiraines role was 'solid' (not sure that's the right word). The reason I left it out was because it wasn't a situation that BS set up and thus didn't seem as 'personally insulting' (again, appreciate I may be overstating your reaction somewhat) to you.

 

Additionally I don't believe that we were ever going to get the Finns responses to all the questions/requests, but I don't know the database well enough to pull out a quote. Either way, if they were in RJs notes to be included in the book they would have been, so I have to conclude that they aren't important to the narrative *shrugs* (I know that BS and Harriet had to invent an awful lot, but you're going to have to provide a lot of evidence for me to believe that they left stuff out that he wanted included.

 

 

The letters is entirely your own thought. BS has openly admitted to forgetting characters like Dobraine, so I see no reason to disbelieve him about this. As I said, I think it fails, but I don't think it's fair to say he's forgotten about them.

 

 

I can understand that other people feel that Alanna was poorly handled. I can't think of a way that it would work better, and regardless it worked for me. It's another thing that's come full circle - Alanna has been a ticking bomb ever since she bonded Rand, it went off (in a big way). Nyn's revert to herbs is another 'throw-back'/'nod' to tEotW, specifically that they proved value in front of Moiraine, who has been Nyn's guide?ideal?competition? (really not sure of teh word to describe their relationship) since they met. What information do you want here, or perhaps what information is needed and why? How should it have been portrayed, when? As I said, I can't think of a better way.

 

If we were never going to get answers regarding Moiraine's (or Lanfear's) wishes, and we were never going to hear again about Verin's letters...then why put them in the last book?  Why show Alanna vanishing after having just opened Verin's letter?  Why show an Aes Sedai give Rand a letter during his meeting at the WT?  Why mention that there were others?  Why even have a whole section of dialogue with Moiraine mentioning her wishes when nobody really expected her to receive any?

 

If all of that was just random filler then it could have been easily wrapped up with literally two sentences in this last book.  Those sentences aren't there and therefor the multitude of unanswered questions remains.  They are not just open ended plots left alive to show the world will be alive; these were issues that were strongly hinted as being important to the conclusion somehow.

 

 

You're 100% right - those resolutions aren't there, yet we have chapters full of Androl's simultaneously pointless and underwhelming storyline (any Light friendly and familiar Asha'man could have been the device to free Logain and leave Logain to do all the glorious things we've been MADE TO EXPECT this whole time like, I don't know, seriously putting the smack down on Taim and uniting with Egwene to lay waste during TG?), the inexplicable (and unexplained) rise of Taim to Chosen-hood, all of the ridiculousness that is the sudden appearance of Shara (hadn't Rand visited Shara at least once during his sort of insane series of Travels around TGS?), Talmanes sudden center stage escaping from Caemlyn (wouldn't someone think to leave behind at least one Kinswoman who can gateway with the dragons for this very reason?  WTF are the dragons doing there in the first place?), Thom's out-of-character SG musings about "exquisite" (just ugh, appalling - deserves a whole series of posts on its own), disturbingly repetitive and pointlessly excessive battle porn, Perrin's redundant (and bloated - Gaul?  really?) rematch with Slayer, Rand's boring back-and-forth with DO (additionally:  so, we're supposed to be freaked out about Alanna dying and Rand going insane, but both Nynaeve and Moiraine are also bonded to people who are at serious and imminent risk of death at any moment and evidently didn't think to temporarily pass their bond to someone else), the awkward sideshow that was the triple duels against Demandred (who's conniving enough to take over all of Shara but apparently has forgotten what Rand looks like), the cynically cruel, twisted and pointless death of Bela (hurts even more and makes you hate Brandon even more when you start re-reading EOTW as I've done), the disrespectful failure that was the deaths of Siuan and Bryne, Graendal's out-of-character failure to Mask of Mirrors and stupid use of Compulsion as an offensive weave, the reappearance of Lanfear without a soultrap, Moghedien's LOL I'm a Seanchan craziness, the inexplicable TP-ness of Callandor, the reappearance of Hinderstap and the needless detail about sabotaging the dam (wouldn't the "dry" riverbed be basically quicksand that's impossible for anything to cross without being opened up to arrows, OP, etc.), I could go on but it's all too upsetting at this point.

 

Ah, that felt good.  That's what's so infuriating and disappointing.  We don't get what we've been waiting for for 13 books (MOIRAINE + RAND, any deep insight into any character's OMG we're at the LB reactions, more resolution for Verin, views on the rest of the Mainlands during TG, resolutions for the soultraps, more action for Moridin vs. Rand, Moridin's cache of angreal, more action for Rand vs. DO, ANYONE'S REACTION TO THE RE-SEALING, the Shaido, etc, etc, etc....) but we have all of this pointless fluff that I've touched on above.  It's sloppy storytelling that's pretty inexcusable for an author who has been selected to complete one of the most important works of fantasy ever.

[rane008]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@mik, markD

 

Regarding dropped plot points... The 2 that MarkD seems most upset by (as a result of them being introduced in Towers by BS) are Verins letters and Alanna. Verin's letters (based on interviews) was purposefully left out so you can agree/disagree with the decision but it wasn't forgotten. About this I agree with you, it would have been better to either leave out the letters or say something of what they contained.

 

However I completely disagree with you about the Alanna one. For me that was resolved to the exact degree it needed to be. Knowing earlier that Moridin had captured her or not would have ruined the suspense. Once she was already there, her last actions answered the question of whether or not she was a Darkfriend (at least it was sufficient for me)... The only way I can see that she could have been involved more and to not ruin the suspense would be to maybe see a scene of her fighting in Kandor, which would have answered where she was, given a suggestion of what was in her letter from Verin, but would also answer if she was a DF or not (at this stage fighting for the Light would suggest that you're not) and ruin that tension. Additionally either she's shown to be fine although fighting at which stage she's forgotten about or she's captured and their goes the tension (personal preference, but I always find the unknown more suspenseful than the known), it also gives us more fighting (and I've only read a few people that say they wanted that). Maybe I've missed options here?

 

Moiraine is another one.

 

And Verin's letters was not intentionally left out.  Brandon is acting like that was his intention so he doesn't look like a total fool in front of people during signings.  He forgot them.  Or else we would have had one sentence somewhere in the 900-some page book that referenced them at least once.

 

As for Alanna - I disagree with you.  The way her plot was handled felt like "oh crap I forgot about Alanna...brb gimme 5 min and ill fix it."

I appreciate that their are more - as others have said on the Moiraine pages - her necessity was at FoM, she was the only person that could have salvaged that meeting as she was the only 1 that both Eg and Rand trusted enough. Eg didn't trust Cads and in fact believed that anybody that spent time with him got caught up in his taveran affect, Rand didn't trust the WT or their machinations that ruled out everybody that hadn't been 'dead' for the past several books. This is highlighted when Eg thinks that Cads relationship with Rand is a 'problem that needs looking at' and her thoughts re Elayne & Nyn. The legend that's been built around Moiraine allowed everyone else to respect her as well, witness Grady(? one of the Ashaman, not personally connected with her (that I remember)) to 'defend' her against glib comments.

 

Don't get me wrong, the FoM scene was a mess, with both Eg and Rand backtracking on several points re seals and armies and generally reads very poorly, but Moiraines role was 'solid' (not sure that's the right word). The reason I left it out was because it wasn't a situation that BS set up and thus didn't seem as 'personally insulting' (again, appreciate I may be overstating your reaction somewhat) to you.

 

Additionally I don't believe that we were ever going to get the Finns responses to all the questions/requests, but I don't know the database well enough to pull out a quote. Either way, if they were in RJs notes to be included in the book they would have been, so I have to conclude that they aren't important to the narrative *shrugs* (I know that BS and Harriet had to invent an awful lot, but you're going to have to provide a lot of evidence for me to believe that they left stuff out that he wanted included.

 

 

The letters is entirely your own thought. BS has openly admitted to forgetting characters like Dobraine, so I see no reason to disbelieve him about this. As I said, I think it fails, but I don't think it's fair to say he's forgotten about them.

 

 

I can understand that other people feel that Alanna was poorly handled. I can't think of a way that it would work better, and regardless it worked for me. It's another thing that's come full circle - Alanna has been a ticking bomb ever since she bonded Rand, it went off (in a big way). Nyn's revert to herbs is another 'throw-back'/'nod' to tEotW, specifically that they proved value in front of Moiraine, who has been Nyn's guide?ideal?competition? (really not sure of teh word to describe their relationship) since they met. What information do you want here, or perhaps what information is needed and why? How should it have been portrayed, when? As I said, I can't think of a better way.

 

If we were never going to get answers regarding Moiraine's (or Lanfear's) wishes, and we were never going to hear again about Verin's letters...then why put them in the last book?  Why show Alanna vanishing after having just opened Verin's letter?  Why show an Aes Sedai give Rand a letter during his meeting at the WT?  Why mention that there were others?  Why even have a whole section of dialogue with Moiraine mentioning her wishes when nobody really expected her to receive any?

 

If all of that was just random filler then it could have been easily wrapped up with literally two sentences in this last book.  Those sentences aren't there and therefor the multitude of unanswered questions remains.  They are not just open ended plots left alive to show the world will be alive; these were issues that were strongly hinted as being important to the conclusion somehow.

 

 

You're 100% right - those resolutions aren't there, yet we have chapters full of Androl's simultaneously pointless and underwhelming storyline (any Light friendly and familiar Asha'man could have been the device to free Logain and leave Logain to do all the glorious things we've been MADE TO EXPECT this whole time like, I don't know, seriously putting the smack down on Taim and uniting with Egwene to lay waste during TG?), the inexplicable (and unexplained) rise of Taim to Chosen-hood, all of the ridiculousness that is the sudden appearance of Shara (hadn't Rand visited Shara at least once during his sort of insane series of Travels around TGS?), Talmanes sudden center stage escaping from Caemlyn (wouldn't someone think to leave behind at least one Kinswoman who can gateway with the dragons for this very reason?  WTF are the dragons doing there in the first place?), Thom's out-of-character SG musings about "exquisite" (just ugh, appalling - deserves a whole series of posts on its own), disturbingly repetitive and pointlessly excessive battle porn, Perrin's redundant (and bloated - Gaul?  really?) rematch with Slayer, Rand's boring back-and-forth with DO (additionally:  so, we're supposed to be freaked out about Alanna dying and Rand going insane, but both Nynaeve and Moiraine are also bonded to people who are at serious and imminent risk of death at any moment and evidently didn't think to temporarily pass their bond to someone else), the awkward sideshow that was the triple duels against Demandred (who's conniving enough to take over all of Shara but apparently has forgotten what Rand looks like), the cynically cruel, twisted and pointless death of Bela (hurts even more and makes you hate Brandon even more when you start re-reading EOTW as I've done), the disrespectful failure that was the deaths of Siuan and Bryne, Graendal's out-of-character failure to Mask of Mirrors and stupid use of Compulsion as an offensive weave, the reappearance of Lanfear without a soultrap, Moghedien's LOL I'm a Seanchan craziness, the inexplicable TP-ness of Callandor, the reappearance of Hinderstap and the needless detail about sabotaging the dam (wouldn't the "dry" riverbed be basically quicksand that's impossible for anything to cross without being opened up to arrows, OP, etc.), I could go on but it's all too upsetting at this point.

 

Ah, that felt good.  That's what's so infuriating and disappointing.  We don't get what we've been waiting for for 13 books (MOIRAINE + RAND, any deep insight into any character's OMG we're at the LB reactions, more resolution for Verin, views on the rest of the Mainlands during TG, resolutions for the soultraps, more action for Moridin vs. Rand, Moridin's cache of angreal, more action for Rand vs. DO, ANYONE'S REACTION TO THE RE-SEALING, the Shaido, etc, etc, etc....) but we have all of this pointless fluff that I've touched on above.  It's sloppy storytelling that's pretty inexcusable for an author who has been selected to complete one of the most important works of fantasy ever.

ALL of this.  Exactly.  And it goes to my point that this story doesn't have the feel of a legend. 

 

And once again, because I feel this is important: the most damning criticism I can give of the book is that I have read better, deeper, more moving, more SATISFYING conclusions to WOT on the Speculation threads on this board than the actual ending was.

[MarkDiLillo]

Well, that about covers it.

 

Except to nitpick:  Bela actually was intended to live and per RJ's notes had to die.  Apparently Harriet corrected Brandon on this and forced it to happen.  Honestly, as much as Bela is symbolic over the course of the series...why Harriet made Brandon change that tiny detail when so much else was left wrong or to work on really befuddles me.

[Agitel]

Well, that about covers it.

 

Except to nitpick:  Bela actually was intended to live and per RJ's notes had to die.  Apparently Harriet corrected Brandon on this and forced it to happen.  Honestly, as much as Bela is symbolic over the course of the series...why Harriet made Brandon change that tiny detail when so much else was left wrong or to work on really befuddles me.

 

Maybe on some level people are putting issues they had with the ending on Brandon's shoulders instead of on where Jordan wanted to take it himself. Jordan would have given us a more character driven narrative for this book, I agree, but people's frustrations with "unresolved" issues may very well not be Brandon's fault at all.

[Kudlak]

I am SAD very SAD for me, after 4-5chapter whole plotline fell apart 

[MarkDiLillo]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@mik, markD

 

Regarding dropped plot points... The 2 that MarkD seems most upset by (as a result of them being introduced in Towers by BS) are Verins letters and Alanna. Verin's letters (based on interviews) was purposefully left out so you can agree/disagree with the decision but it wasn't forgotten. About this I agree with you, it would have been better to either leave out the letters or say something of what they contained.

 

However I completely disagree with you about the Alanna one. For me that was resolved to the exact degree it needed to be. Knowing earlier that Moridin had captured her or not would have ruined the suspense. Once she was already there, her last actions answered the question of whether or not she was a Darkfriend (at least it was sufficient for me)... The only way I can see that she could have been involved more and to not ruin the suspense would be to maybe see a scene of her fighting in Kandor, which would have answered where she was, given a suggestion of what was in her letter from Verin, but would also answer if she was a DF or not (at this stage fighting for the Light would suggest that you're not) and ruin that tension. Additionally either she's shown to be fine although fighting at which stage she's forgotten about or she's captured and their goes the tension (personal preference, but I always find the unknown more suspenseful than the known), it also gives us more fighting (and I've only read a few people that say they wanted that). Maybe I've missed options here?

 

Moiraine is another one.

 

And Verin's letters was not intentionally left out.  Brandon is acting like that was his intention so he doesn't look like a total fool in front of people during signings.  He forgot them.  Or else we would have had one sentence somewhere in the 900-some page book that referenced them at least once.

 

As for Alanna - I disagree with you.  The way her plot was handled felt like "oh crap I forgot about Alanna...brb gimme 5 min and ill fix it."

I appreciate that their are more - as others have said on the Moiraine pages - her necessity was at FoM, she was the only person that could have salvaged that meeting as she was the only 1 that both Eg and Rand trusted enough. Eg didn't trust Cads and in fact believed that anybody that spent time with him got caught up in his taveran affect, Rand didn't trust the WT or their machinations that ruled out everybody that hadn't been 'dead' for the past several books. This is highlighted when Eg thinks that Cads relationship with Rand is a 'problem that needs looking at' and her thoughts re Elayne & Nyn. The legend that's been built around Moiraine allowed everyone else to respect her as well, witness Grady(? one of the Ashaman, not personally connected with her (that I remember)) to 'defend' her against glib comments.

 

Don't get me wrong, the FoM scene was a mess, with both Eg and Rand backtracking on several points re seals and armies and generally reads very poorly, but Moiraines role was 'solid' (not sure that's the right word). The reason I left it out was because it wasn't a situation that BS set up and thus didn't seem as 'personally insulting' (again, appreciate I may be overstating your reaction somewhat) to you.

 

Additionally I don't believe that we were ever going to get the Finns responses to all the questions/requests, but I don't know the database well enough to pull out a quote. Either way, if they were in RJs notes to be included in the book they would have been, so I have to conclude that they aren't important to the narrative *shrugs* (I know that BS and Harriet had to invent an awful lot, but you're going to have to provide a lot of evidence for me to believe that they left stuff out that he wanted included.

 

 

The letters is entirely your own thought. BS has openly admitted to forgetting characters like Dobraine, so I see no reason to disbelieve him about this. As I said, I think it fails, but I don't think it's fair to say he's forgotten about them.

 

 

I can understand that other people feel that Alanna was poorly handled. I can't think of a way that it would work better, and regardless it worked for me. It's another thing that's come full circle - Alanna has been a ticking bomb ever since she bonded Rand, it went off (in a big way). Nyn's revert to herbs is another 'throw-back'/'nod' to tEotW, specifically that they proved value in front of Moiraine, who has been Nyn's guide?ideal?competition? (really not sure of teh word to describe their relationship) since they met. What information do you want here, or perhaps what information is needed and why? How should it have been portrayed, when? As I said, I can't think of a better way.

 

If we were never going to get answers regarding Moiraine's (or Lanfear's) wishes, and we were never going to hear again about Verin's letters...then why put them in the last book?  Why show Alanna vanishing after having just opened Verin's letter?  Why show an Aes Sedai give Rand a letter during his meeting at the WT?  Why mention that there were others?  Why even have a whole section of dialogue with Moiraine mentioning her wishes when nobody really expected her to receive any?

 

If all of that was just random filler then it could have been easily wrapped up with literally two sentences in this last book.  Those sentences aren't there and therefor the multitude of unanswered questions remains.  They are not just open ended plots left alive to show the world will be alive; these were issues that were strongly hinted as being important to the conclusion somehow.

 

 

You're 100% right - those resolutions aren't there, yet we have chapters full of Androl's simultaneously pointless and underwhelming storyline (any Light friendly and familiar Asha'man could have been the device to free Logain and leave Logain to do all the glorious things we've been MADE TO EXPECT this whole time like, I don't know, seriously putting the smack down on Taim and uniting with Egwene to lay waste during TG?), the inexplicable (and unexplained) rise of Taim to Chosen-hood, all of the ridiculousness that is the sudden appearance of Shara (hadn't Rand visited Shara at least once during his sort of insane series of Travels around TGS?), Talmanes sudden center stage escaping from Caemlyn (wouldn't someone think to leave behind at least one Kinswoman who can gateway with the dragons for this very reason?  WTF are the dragons doing there in the first place?), Thom's out-of-character SG musings about "exquisite" (just ugh, appalling - deserves a whole series of posts on its own), disturbingly repetitive and pointlessly excessive battle porn, Perrin's redundant (and bloated - Gaul?  really?) rematch with Slayer, Rand's boring back-and-forth with DO (additionally:  so, we're supposed to be freaked out about Alanna dying and Rand going insane, but both Nynaeve and Moiraine are also bonded to people who are at serious and imminent risk of death at any moment and evidently didn't think to temporarily pass their bond to someone else), the awkward sideshow that was the triple duels against Demandred (who's conniving enough to take over all of Shara but apparently has forgotten what Rand looks like), the cynically cruel, twisted and pointless death of Bela (hurts even more and makes you hate Brandon even more when you start re-reading EOTW as I've done), the disrespectful failure that was the deaths of Siuan and Bryne, Graendal's out-of-character failure to Mask of Mirrors and stupid use of Compulsion as an offensive weave, the reappearance of Lanfear without a soultrap, Moghedien's LOL I'm a Seanchan craziness, the inexplicable TP-ness of Callandor, the reappearance of Hinderstap and the needless detail about sabotaging the dam (wouldn't the "dry" riverbed be basically quicksand that's impossible for anything to cross without being opened up to arrows, OP, etc.), I could go on but it's all too upsetting at this point.

 

Ah, that felt good.  That's what's so infuriating and disappointing.  We don't get what we've been waiting for for 13 books (MOIRAINE + RAND, any deep insight into any character's OMG we're at the LB reactions, more resolution for Verin, views on the rest of the Mainlands during TG, resolutions for the soultraps, more action for Moridin vs. Rand, Moridin's cache of angreal, more action for Rand vs. DO, ANYONE'S REACTION TO THE RE-SEALING, the Shaido, etc, etc, etc....) but we have all of this pointless fluff that I've touched on above.  It's sloppy storytelling that's pretty inexcusable for an author who has been selected to complete one of the most important works of fantasy ever.

 

I'd like to point out how the bolded section above actually is correct.  I dont know if phrasing it as one of the most "important" works of fantasy ever is the best way to put it, but WoT has certainly been a massive game changer in fantasy.  Many people like to sweep it under the rug as flawed or bad writing that can't compare to true works of literature, but that is a separate issue entirely.  Within the fantasy genre, WoT was a game changer that massively influenced the industry.  I don't know that I would be too far out of line to say that it really is the next big leap from Tolkien.  Unfortunately, the extended length near the end and the sloppy finish may have just knocked it down several pegs in the metaphorical Fantasy Hall of Fame, but irrespective of that, the WoT series has acted as a type of watershed moment for fantasy similar to how Tolkien's series did.

 

And before everyone jumps out to say how much better GRRM and other authors are right now please realize that I am not saying WoT is the best series out there in fantasy.  Realize that WoT started 20-some years ago and that in the last two decades fantasy has changed directions massively and evolved significantly.  If WoT had been finished during its first decade it would be considered the greatest work in fantasy of all time though IMO.  It did have that serious of an impact on the genre.

[rqstnnlitnmnt]

 

Well, that about covers it.

 

Except to nitpick:  Bela actually was intended to live and per RJ's notes had to die.  Apparently Harriet corrected Brandon on this and forced it to happen.  Honestly, as much as Bela is symbolic over the course of the series...why Harriet made Brandon change that tiny detail when so much else was left wrong or to work on really befuddles me.

 

Maybe on some level people are putting issues they had with the ending on Brandon's shoulders instead of on where Jordan wanted to take it himself. Jordan would have given us a more character driven narrative for this book, I agree, but people's frustrations with "unresolved" issues may very well not be Brandon's fault at all.

 

This is a good point.  With respect to Bela, all I meant was that we've seen this character (yes, I get it, she's just a horse...) do inexplicable things and, tongue in cheek as it is, there were at least some hints that Bela wasn't just some ordinary horse.  She's been a source of centering for the Two Rivers folk and the silent guardian during many points of the story.  Even if RJ's notes say "Bela dies," why are we left with the image of her in a cookpot, Trollocs and others gnawing on her bones.  What other image would we have after 300 pages of disgusting unrestrained violence?

 

Even if RJ intended for Bela to die, there's no reason for Brandon to leave it at that.  An arrow in the flank and that's it, Trolloc food.  Nothing else.  For all of the themes of hope and strength of soul through rebirth, this character's death certainly fell short.  Instead, we get Rand riding away smoking a pipe.

 

And I get that it's TG.  Characters will die and we'll be sad.  But that's no reason why those characters shouldn't get the proper respect they've earned over the past 20 years.

 

It's not the EVENTS, it's the way they were conveyed to us.  I'm sad Bela died and I wish she would have lived to enjoy beautiful meadows of the 4th age in all of her super-horse glory, but I'm even sadder that the way her death was communicated to us didn't rise above the violence porn that Brandon disturbingly and inappropriately used throughout the book.

[Tsukibana]

@rqs...

Whole-heartedly agree.

[Treebeard]

i can´t adeqatly exrpress what i feel in eglish so i will swith langue , i don´t care if noboby understand or bother translate: till alla er som känner att det ni ville inte hände , ni bör nog inte läsa böcker . Om ni sätter upp som ett kriterium för en bok att de karaktärer ni tycker om skall överleva eller dö på något alldelses spektakulärt sätt , ni borde inte läsa böcker , ni kommer endast att bli besvikna . Jag tycker att det finns en gräns för när disskution om kvalitet - likt frågan Alannas ganska abrupta uppdykande på scenen men det finns en gräns och den gränsen är nådd när man säger X borde ha dött på detta eller detta sätt hon har faktiskt existerat i 20 år . Lol och ni vill att saker och ting skall vara realistiska - jag vill inte påstå att jag har upplevt krig men jag tror att om du frågar en soldat så skulle ni få svaret att vanliga människor inte dör med ett ljussken strålande ner från himmelen eller en trumpetfanfar de dör och det är sorligt lev med det.

[rqstnnlitnmnt]

i can´t adeqatly exrpress what i feel in eglish so i will swith langue , i don´t care if noboby understand or bother translate: till alla er som känner att det ni ville inte hände , ni bör nog inte läsa böcker . Om ni sätter upp som ett kriterium för en bok att de karaktärer ni tycker om skall överleva eller dö på något alldelses spektakulärt sätt , ni borde inte läsa böcker , ni kommer endast att bli besvikna . Jag tycker att det finns en gräns för när disskution om kvalitet - likt frågan Alannas ganska abrupta uppdykande på scenen men det finns en gräns och den gränsen är nådd när man säger X borde ha dött på detta eller detta sätt hon har faktiskt existerat i 20 år . Lol och ni vill att saker och ting skall vara realistiska - jag vill inte påstå att jag har upplevt krig men jag tror att om du frågar en soldat så skulle ni få svaret att vanliga människor inte dör med ett ljussken strålande ner från himmelen eller en trumpetfanfar de dör och det är sorligt lev med det.

 

credit to Google Translate:

to all of you who feel that what you did not want to happen, you should probably not read books. If you set up as a criterion for a book to the characters you like to survive or die in any alldelses spectacular fashion, you should not read the books, you will only be disappointed. I think there is a limit to when disskution about quality - like the question Alannas rather abrupt appearance on the stage, but there is a limit and that limit is reached when one says X should have died in this or that way, she has actually existed for 20 years . Lol and you want things to be realistic - I would not say that I have experienced war, but I think if you ask a soldier, you would get the answer that ordinary people do not die with a light shining down from heaven or a trumpet fanfare they die and it's sad live with it.

[Elathan]

Haha - if i have own opinion and ideas, i shouldn't read books?

[Agitel]

I had no problem with Siuane's death. Or Bryne's. Or Bela's. I thought all of those were fine, despite what others think. I don't think each character death needs a grand sequence. I did think a little more time could be devoted to the death's Rand saw from outside the Pattern, though. I don't have my book with me, I lent it out, but they could have been a little more, I think. From what I remember it was a one line statement. It should have been a couple of lines longer, as if Rand was there, watching from right beside them. I don't think more than a couple lines would have been necessary. But it just seemed like they were being rattled off.

[Charred Knight]

Very rarely do I think writers get how to kill off a character.  If you kill off 100 characters in a book then your only going to care about 1 or 2 of them, so people are going to care about Egwene's death, some might care about Gawyn's death but thats about it.  At the end of the day it just felt like all Sanderson was doing was marking off a checklist.  As for the Warder Bond causing the Warder to go insane with grief, what has that done but caused a bunch of warder's to die worthless deaths. 

[AndyB]

First, an admission: last minute “out of nowhere” rescues always get me.  I literally teared up when Lan and the Malkieri got rescued at the beginning of the book.  I’m not ashamed.  Much. 

 

That said, the Last Battle as fought by Mat would have been a lot more interesting to read if I didn’t already know how it was going to go.  Not overall, I didn’t think “The Dark One wins, everyone dies” was really in the cards, but did we need to know ahead of time that Mat had transported the Dragons underground or that the Seanchan storming off in a snit was only a ploy?  I guess what I’m saying is that BS needed to manipulate my emotions more effectively..

 

Also, there are better ways to prove how dangerous Demandred is than having him kill my least favorite character, cut the arm from another one I hate, and then pound poor Logain into the ground like a tent stake.  Not that I didn’t love “"You didn't listen to me, I did not come here to win, I came here to kill you. Death is lighter than a feather."  (It’d be nice if he had left off the last bit, “I came here to kill you” is the punch line, no need to tag it.)

[Amandera]

 

@mik, markD

 

Regarding dropped plot points... The 2 that MarkD seems most upset by (as a result of them being introduced in Towers by BS) are Verins letters and Alanna. Verin's letters (based on interviews) was purposefully left out so you can agree/disagree with the decision but it wasn't forgotten. About this I agree with you, it would have been better to either leave out the letters or say something of what they contained.

 

However I completely disagree with you about the Alanna one. For me that was resolved to the exact degree it needed to be. Knowing earlier that Moridin had captured her or not would have ruined the suspense. Once she was already there, her last actions answered the question of whether or not she was a Darkfriend (at least it was sufficient for me)... The only way I can see that she could have been involved more and to not ruin the suspense would be to maybe see a scene of her fighting in Kandor, which would have answered where she was, given a suggestion of what was in her letter from Verin, but would also answer if she was a DF or not (at this stage fighting for the Light would suggest that you're not) and ruin that tension. Additionally either she's shown to be fine although fighting at which stage she's forgotten about or she's captured and their goes the tension (personal preference, but I always find the unknown more suspenseful than the known), it also gives us more fighting (and I've only read a few people that say they wanted that). Maybe I've missed options here?

 

Moiraine is another one.

 

And Verin's letters was not intentionally left out.  Brandon is acting like that was his intention so he doesn't look like a total fool in front of people during signings.  He forgot them.  Or else we would have had one sentence somewhere in the 900-some page book that referenced them at least once.

 

As for Alanna - I disagree with you.  The way her plot was handled felt like "oh crap I forgot about Alanna...brb gimme 5 min and ill fix it."

I think it went more like "Notes say she disappears and ends up in the Pit of Doom. Hmm, how does that happen? Oh, screw it, who needs to know how it happens, let me just add it there and be done with it."

 

Agree about everything else though.

[GenPender]

 

 

 

This is a good point.  With respect to Bela, all I meant was that we've seen this character (yes, I get it, she's just a horse...) do inexplicable things and, tongue in cheek as it is, there were at least some hints that Bela wasn't just some ordinary horse.  She's been a source of centering for the Two Rivers folk and the silent guardian during many points of the story.  Even if RJ's notes say "Bela dies," why are we left with the image of her in a cookpot, Trollocs and others gnawing on her bones.  What other image would we have after 300 pages of disgusting unrestrained violence?

 

Even if RJ intended for Bela to die, there's no reason for Brandon to leave it at that.  An arrow in the flank and that's it, Trolloc food.  Nothing else.  For all of the themes of hope and strength of soul through rebirth, this character's death certainly fell short.  Instead, we get Rand riding away smoking a pipe.

 

And I get that it's TG.  Characters will die and we'll be sad.  But that's no reason why those characters shouldn't get the proper respect they've earned over the past 20 years.

 

It's not the EVENTS, it's the way they were conveyed to us.  I'm sad Bela died and I wish she would have lived to enjoy beautiful meadows of the 4th age in all of her super-horse glory, but I'm even sadder that the way her death was communicated to us didn't rise above the violence porn that Brandon disturbingly and inappropriately used throughout the book.

 

Finally got caught up on this thread.  An excellent post (one of many made over the past week or so, particularly those by batcaver).  Other posters have pointed out the excellent--quick, yet moving--way RJ handled Nalesean's death.  One line, yet written in a far more subtle and touching manner than anything in AMoL.  I would further submit Ingtar (with Rand giving him the Shienaran benediction and Hurin gasping right before the group runs off) and Hopwil/Kimura (sp?) (Daigian weeping while holding the former's body, Verin and the AM woman praying over the latter's) after the Cleansing as others.  For all RJ's flaws as a writer, they demonstrate a deft touch and aptitude that Sanderson simply doesn't possess. 

 

No, you can't have your characters dropping everything in the middle of the battle to mourn.  But if, on hearing of Egwene's death, Mat had exhaled deeply, swayed over his ashandarei as if on the verge of collapse, and had some thought about, "I wish she'd gotten to do x/I should have saved her by y/I'll always remember when we did z," it would have carried a satisfactory emotional punch.  Instead, to the best of my recollection (which may easily be incorrect, as I have no desire ever to touch AMOL again), he simply thought, "I can't think about that now, have to manage the battle."  That's too easy, and doesn't provide for any sort of response or release.

 

Not interested in parsing out the blame between RJ/Team Jordan and Sanderson.  The end product was a massive disappointment, regardless of who was responsible for what.  While I understand that their options were limited, I do think the choice of Sanderson was a mistake, and not simply due to his shortcomings.  Maybe it's regional bias, but WoT was a Southern story crafted by a Southern writer, and his replacement should have been a Southerner as well.

 

To touch briefly on the battle scenes, I found them boring and repetitive, and I say that as someone who's read over 100 books on the American Civil War.  Dozens, if not hundreds, of pages easily could have been cut from those sections.

[Suttree]

Mat's response was pretty much "light". Exactly the same as when he heard about Elayne

[Kudlak]

 

 

 

No, you can't have your characters dropping everything in the middle of the battle to mourn.  But if, on hearing of Egwene's death, Mat had exhaled deeply, swayed over his ashandarei as if on the verge of collapse, and had some thought about, "I wish she'd gotten to do x/I should have saved her by y/I'll always remember when we did z," it would have carried a satisfactory emotional punch.  Instead, to the best of my recollection (which may easily be incorrect, as I have no desire ever to touch AMOL again), he simply thought, "I can't think about that now, have to manage the battle."  That's too easy, and doesn't provide for any sort of response or release.

 

 

Bigger problem is Mat reaction as whole. Lets ignore that somebody, he knows whole life, is death. Right now, he knows what 1. WT lost leader -who will lead them in battle, what about troops morale  + light site lost one of strongest caster on battle field

                                                                                                                                                                                                2. He know that Aes Sedai are complete wipe out - they lost a lot of people and what is alive cant use power

And Mat reaction on this disaster is - "I can't think about that now, have to manage the battle. That is genius in full swing

[dreadlord]

Im saddened by the amount of complaining in EVERY single arc thread.  Our favorite series, one of the greatest and largest fantasy series of all time, just came to an end. 

 

Coming to end is not necessarily a good thing if that end is not perceived as a good ending.

 

Personally, I've reached the point where I'd have preferred the series not have continued after RJ's death based on ToM and aMoL.