Quality Discussion Thread

[papertiger]

That paragraph above explains exactly why I was entertained but completely disconnected from the book.

 

The Phantom Menace parallel is also appropriate.

[Suttree]

Not sure who these "we" people are being referred to in terms of what was wanted. That is somewhat over simplifying the issue. The WoT has never been about testosterone or blood soaked frenzy. It was a living and breathing universe, detailed and authentic. It is a work that resounds with depth and deals with themes like morality and how far one can go fighting evil without becoming it. Can't speak for anyone else but that is what I was looking for. All with sections like the Damona Campaign or Dumais Wells thrown in of course.

[papertiger]

I think that perhaps a certain vociferous faction called for EPIC BATTLE & OMG DEM VS EGGY TOTES LAVA GATEWAY and Tor or whomever responded in kind. It perfectly explains why I felt a thick disconnect with the greater part of the narrative, until the end when Rand got his clean getaway.

[Livia]

 

Sometimes I do discern a difference between the writing of RJ and BS. But the truth is, neither writer was done justice in this book because the pacing is completely foreign to the slow, inside-the-head-of-every-character epic that we were patient enough to wait 14 books for to learn the ending of. There's some justification for speeding up the pace during the Last Battle, but the truth is, we probably needed at least another 500 pages to be fully satisfied. No last moments for Siuan, Gareth, so many characters through whose eyes we were used to viewing Randland. Not. Enough. Space. Would've waited another year or two for satisfaction - not all issues or characters needed to be fully resolved, but it is incomplete.

You said in one paragraph what I struggled to say in my meandering post. Thanks. (To top it off you did it while I was thinking about my post.)

Aw, thanks!

[papertiger]

Quick question, when did RJ find out he was sick? Was it before or after KoD?

[Agitel]

One thing I wish is that Brandon needs to learn not to tip his hand to the reader too soon. The GC arc was okay. But why were we told about the Seanchan-exit bluff before it happened? No point to that. We can be put into a character's head and have information withheld from us. It happened all the time in WoT. I also think he needs to read Dune Messiah. Well done there, too.

[Mik]

Quick question, when did RJ find out he was sick? Was it before or after KoD?

Probably after he finished KoD.

 

KoD was released late in 2005 with the prologue released as early as june (..so the story for KoD was written and finished earlier then that)

RJ wrote a public letter that he was ill (and what the diagnose was) in may 2006.

 

:(

[Mik]

I just spent the evening rereading various parts of the first 11 books, and I can say with full and absolute confidence that I wish the last three books had never been written.  Not only do they fail to do justice to such a remarkable and enjoyable story, but they also manage to tarnish the professional legacy and masterwork of a beloved author and storyteller.  Robert Jordan deserved better than this.  We also deserved better.

 

Every time I read a comment that lays blame at RJ's feet for how the ending turned out I want to smack Brandon upside the head.  By my estimation, he is owed over a dozen smacks now.  Those comments are exactly the reason RJ originally wanted to burn the notes and obstinately refused to allow anyone to finish the story.  He relented only as a gift to us; his fans.  RJ spent the last months of his life jotting down notes, writing important parts of the story, and dictating important details so that someone could take over and finish his story for us.  He literally worked from his death bed to ensure that the Wheel of Time was finished properly.

 

After rereading parts of the original books tonight it really hit me how badly I feel that we’ve all been let down.  I am by nature critical – sometimes overly so, but right now I really don’t have any mercy or kindness left in my opinion and critique of Brandon's work on WoT.  Specifically aMoL.  I actually feel bad that I was so harshly critical in my opinions of ToM and TGS after finally digesting this book.  The problems of those first two Brandon books pale in comparison to what we see in aMoL.  Sure, ToM and TGS felt “off”, they contained some sloppy prose, and we can generally agree that we lost the voice of some of our favorite characters.  But…they still felt like Wheel of Time.  The original plot and story was still there.

 

This last book, the most important book in the entire series, is a total mess.  It is a disaster on every level.  It screams of sloppiness and a sheer lack of effort.  The saving grace of the last two books, the story and plots that RJ left us with, completely unravelled in this book and fell victim to Sanderon's own schemes.  It felt like he either abandoned most story arcs entirely, changed and redesigned them to his liking, or wrapped them up in such a sloppy and half assed manner that we literally lost the world that RJ left for us.  And this is entirely Brandon Sanderson’s fault.

 

Major plot points simply are forgotten and ignored.  Prophecies are not fulfilled.  Attributes and details of characters are changed or forgotten for plot convenience.  WoT world rules are forgotten, altered, or dramatically expanded in ways that make readers wonder why.  Entire characters that should have been featured are left out and forgotten.  Major themes of the series and questions that we’ve been asking for years are left completely unaddressed.  The text is filled with mistakes that we are taught to avoid in high school creative writing classes.  The list goes on and on.

 

Despite some very enjoyable and well written sections, this last book ruined the series and the legacy of one of the greatest stories of all time.  Stories like these live on for many, many years.  Many of us know the truth of how it all went down.  We know that a lot of these faults do not lie at RJ’s feet.  But guess what?  Forty years from now when someone is picking up this series and gets to the end only to be massively disappointed…they are not going to know what happened.  They will see that the series was completed based on the notes of Robert Jordan, and they are going to wonder why Robert Jordan’s ending was so sloppy.

 

My last point here is to explain exactly why I am so harshly critical of Brandon Sanderson’s work on aMoL.  We all know that Brandon Sanderson isn’t the same author as Robert Jordan.  That’s not the problem – a man can only try his best.  But did Brandon try his best on this?  Did he give 110% effort?  To answer that question we only have to look at what he wrote.  Some of it actually is fantastic and well written.  Some of it draws you in and allows you to think you’re reading original RJ written WoT.  I specifically point to Chapter 37 [the last 100 pages for me, tops] in aMoL.  The scenes with Lan, Olver, Rand, and the Horn of Valere were brilliantly written and woven together to a climax that made for fantastic reading.  Brandon’s own work betrays his sloppiness and lack of effort on this project.  How can certain sequences be so wonderfully written and other parts so utterly terrible?  How can he literally forget to address major cliffhangers that he wrote into the end of the last book?  The answer to those two questions is why I judge Brandon Sanderson so harshly.

 

I’ll stop now before this gets so long nobody reads it.  Hopefully I got most of my complaining out of my system with this post.  I just really feel disappointed, and the biggest let down comes because I see an honest lack of effort from Brandon’s side.  He wrote this as if it were just another project to get off his desk.  He didn’t write this as a professional working to finish another mans legacy.

 

It’s a terrible shame that future generations to come will read The Wheel of Time in its entirety and their final thoughts will be how poor an ending Robert Jordan left us with.

 

 

^this.

[Agitel]

 

I just spent the evening rereading various parts of the first 11 books, and I can say with full and absolute confidence that I wish the last three books had never been written.  Not only do they fail to do justice to such a remarkable and enjoyable story, but they also manage to tarnish the professional legacy and masterwork of a beloved author and storyteller.  Robert Jordan deserved better than this.  We also deserved better.

 

Every time I read a comment that lays blame at RJ's feet for how the ending turned out I want to smack Brandon upside the head.  By my estimation, he is owed over a dozen smacks now.  Those comments are exactly the reason RJ originally wanted to burn the notes and obstinately refused to allow anyone to finish the story.  He relented only as a gift to us; his fans.  RJ spent the last months of his life jotting down notes, writing important parts of the story, and dictating important details so that someone could take over and finish his story for us.  He literally worked from his death bed to ensure that the Wheel of Time was finished properly.

 

After rereading parts of the original books tonight it really hit me how badly I feel that we’ve all been let down.  I am by nature critical – sometimes overly so, but right now I really don’t have any mercy or kindness left in my opinion and critique of Brandon's work on WoT.  Specifically aMoL.  I actually feel bad that I was so harshly critical in my opinions of ToM and TGS after finally digesting this book.  The problems of those first two Brandon books pale in comparison to what we see in aMoL.  Sure, ToM and TGS felt “off”, they contained some sloppy prose, and we can generally agree that we lost the voice of some of our favorite characters.  But…they still felt like Wheel of Time.  The original plot and story was still there.

 

This last book, the most important book in the entire series, is a total mess.  It is a disaster on every level.  It screams of sloppiness and a sheer lack of effort.  The saving grace of the last two books, the story and plots that RJ left us with, completely unravelled in this book and fell victim to Sanderon's own schemes.  It felt like he either abandoned most story arcs entirely, changed and redesigned them to his liking, or wrapped them up in such a sloppy and half assed manner that we literally lost the world that RJ left for us.  And this is entirely Brandon Sanderson’s fault.

 

Major plot points simply are forgotten and ignored.  Prophecies are not fulfilled.  Attributes and details of characters are changed or forgotten for plot convenience.  WoT world rules are forgotten, altered, or dramatically expanded in ways that make readers wonder why.  Entire characters that should have been featured are left out and forgotten.  Major themes of the series and questions that we’ve been asking for years are left completely unaddressed.  The text is filled with mistakes that we are taught to avoid in high school creative writing classes.  The list goes on and on.

 

Despite some very enjoyable and well written sections, this last book ruined the series and the legacy of one of the greatest stories of all time.  Stories like these live on for many, many years.  Many of us know the truth of how it all went down.  We know that a lot of these faults do not lie at RJ’s feet.  But guess what?  Forty years from now when someone is picking up this series and gets to the end only to be massively disappointed…they are not going to know what happened.  They will see that the series was completed based on the notes of Robert Jordan, and they are going to wonder why Robert Jordan’s ending was so sloppy.

 

My last point here is to explain exactly why I am so harshly critical of Brandon Sanderson’s work on aMoL.  We all know that Brandon Sanderson isn’t the same author as Robert Jordan.  That’s not the problem – a man can only try his best.  But did Brandon try his best on this?  Did he give 110% effort?  To answer that question we only have to look at what he wrote.  Some of it actually is fantastic and well written.  Some of it draws you in and allows you to think you’re reading original RJ written WoT.  I specifically point to Chapter 37 [the last 100 pages for me, tops] in aMoL.  The scenes with Lan, Olver, Rand, and the Horn of Valere were brilliantly written and woven together to a climax that made for fantastic reading.  Brandon’s own work betrays his sloppiness and lack of effort on this project.  How can certain sequences be so wonderfully written and other parts so utterly terrible?  How can he literally forget to address major cliffhangers that he wrote into the end of the last book?  The answer to those two questions is why I judge Brandon Sanderson so harshly.

 

I’ll stop now before this gets so long nobody reads it.  Hopefully I got most of my complaining out of my system with this post.  I just really feel disappointed, and the biggest let down comes because I see an honest lack of effort from Brandon’s side.  He wrote this as if it were just another project to get off his desk.  He didn’t write this as a professional working to finish another mans legacy.

 

It’s a terrible shame that future generations to come will read The Wheel of Time in its entirety and their final thoughts will be how poor an ending Robert Jordan left us with.

 

 

^this.

 

Is completely out-of-touch.

[jwillis7]

some one's well thought out complaints about a book is not out of touch.  Especially when lots of people seem to agree.

[Mik]

 

 

I just spent the evening rereading various parts of the first 11 books, and I can say with full and absolute confidence that I wish the last three books had never been written.  Not only do they fail to do justice to such a remarkable and enjoyable story, but they also manage to tarnish the professional legacy and masterwork of a beloved author and storyteller.  Robert Jordan deserved better than this.  We also deserved better.

 

Every time I read a comment that lays blame at RJ's feet for how the ending turned out I want to smack Brandon upside the head.  By my estimation, he is owed over a dozen smacks now.  Those comments are exactly the reason RJ originally wanted to burn the notes and obstinately refused to allow anyone to finish the story.  He relented only as a gift to us; his fans.  RJ spent the last months of his life jotting down notes, writing important parts of the story, and dictating important details so that someone could take over and finish his story for us.  He literally worked from his death bed to ensure that the Wheel of Time was finished properly.

 

After rereading parts of the original books tonight it really hit me how badly I feel that we’ve all been let down.  I am by nature critical – sometimes overly so, but right now I really don’t have any mercy or kindness left in my opinion and critique of Brandon's work on WoT.  Specifically aMoL.  I actually feel bad that I was so harshly critical in my opinions of ToM and TGS after finally digesting this book.  The problems of those first two Brandon books pale in comparison to what we see in aMoL.  Sure, ToM and TGS felt “off”, they contained some sloppy prose, and we can generally agree that we lost the voice of some of our favorite characters.  But…they still felt like Wheel of Time.  The original plot and story was still there.

 

This last book, the most important book in the entire series, is a total mess.  It is a disaster on every level.  It screams of sloppiness and a sheer lack of effort.  The saving grace of the last two books, the story and plots that RJ left us with, completely unravelled in this book and fell victim to Sanderon's own schemes.  It felt like he either abandoned most story arcs entirely, changed and redesigned them to his liking, or wrapped them up in such a sloppy and half assed manner that we literally lost the world that RJ left for us.  And this is entirely Brandon Sanderson’s fault.

 

Major plot points simply are forgotten and ignored.  Prophecies are not fulfilled.  Attributes and details of characters are changed or forgotten for plot convenience.  WoT world rules are forgotten, altered, or dramatically expanded in ways that make readers wonder why.  Entire characters that should have been featured are left out and forgotten.  Major themes of the series and questions that we’ve been asking for years are left completely unaddressed.  The text is filled with mistakes that we are taught to avoid in high school creative writing classes.  The list goes on and on.

 

Despite some very enjoyable and well written sections, this last book ruined the series and the legacy of one of the greatest stories of all time.  Stories like these live on for many, many years.  Many of us know the truth of how it all went down.  We know that a lot of these faults do not lie at RJ’s feet.  But guess what?  Forty years from now when someone is picking up this series and gets to the end only to be massively disappointed…they are not going to know what happened.  They will see that the series was completed based on the notes of Robert Jordan, and they are going to wonder why Robert Jordan’s ending was so sloppy.

 

My last point here is to explain exactly why I am so harshly critical of Brandon Sanderson’s work on aMoL.  We all know that Brandon Sanderson isn’t the same author as Robert Jordan.  That’s not the problem – a man can only try his best.  But did Brandon try his best on this?  Did he give 110% effort?  To answer that question we only have to look at what he wrote.  Some of it actually is fantastic and well written.  Some of it draws you in and allows you to think you’re reading original RJ written WoT.  I specifically point to Chapter 37 [the last 100 pages for me, tops] in aMoL.  The scenes with Lan, Olver, Rand, and the Horn of Valere were brilliantly written and woven together to a climax that made for fantastic reading.  Brandon’s own work betrays his sloppiness and lack of effort on this project.  How can certain sequences be so wonderfully written and other parts so utterly terrible?  How can he literally forget to address major cliffhangers that he wrote into the end of the last book?  The answer to those two questions is why I judge Brandon Sanderson so harshly.

 

I’ll stop now before this gets so long nobody reads it.  Hopefully I got most of my complaining out of my system with this post.  I just really feel disappointed, and the biggest let down comes because I see an honest lack of effort from Brandon’s side.  He wrote this as if it were just another project to get off his desk.  He didn’t write this as a professional working to finish another mans legacy.

 

It’s a terrible shame that future generations to come will read The Wheel of Time in its entirety and their final thoughts will be how poor an ending Robert Jordan left us with.

 

 

^this.

 

Is completely out-of-touch.

To me, it was spot on.

I don't like it one bit, that I felt exactly like this, ....especially throughout the first 800 (eight-hundred!) pages or so.

 

I felt genuinely, really sad for RJ and his legacy ..and often pissed off at Brandon, for what didn't just look like BS wasn't trying.... but that his words read like disdain for WoT.

[BFG]

@mik, markD

 

Regarding dropped plot points... The 2 that MarkD seems most upset by (as a result of them being introduced in Towers by BS) are Verins letters and Alanna. Verin's letters (based on interviews) was purposefully left out so you can agree/disagree with the decision but it wasn't forgotten. About this I agree with you, it would have been better to either leave out the letters or say something of what they contained.

 

However I completely disagree with you about the Alanna one. For me that was resolved to the exact degree it needed to be. Knowing earlier that Moridin had captured her or not would have ruined the suspense. Once she was already there, her last actions answered the question of whether or not she was a Darkfriend (at least it was sufficient for me)... The only way I can see that she could have been involved more and to not ruin the suspense would be to maybe see a scene of her fighting in Kandor, which would have answered where she was, given a suggestion of what was in her letter from Verin, but would also answer if she was a DF or not (at this stage fighting for the Light would suggest that you're not) and ruin that tension. Additionally either she's shown to be fine although fighting at which stage she's forgotten about or she's captured and their goes the tension (personal preference, but I always find the unknown more suspenseful than the known), it also gives us more fighting (and I've only read a few people that say they wanted that). Maybe I've missed options here?

[Treebeard]

@ mik

just so I understand correctly the meaning of your post - you did´t like AMOL - and you feel that BS feelt disdain for wot ? Y/N ?

[2RiversFan]

To me, it was spot on.

I don't like it one bit, that I felt exactly like this, ....especially throughout the first 800 (eight-hundred!) pages or so.

 

I felt genuinely, really sad for RJ and his legacy ..and often pissed off at Brandon, for what didn't just look like BS wasn't trying.... but that his words read like disdain for WoT.

 

I'm not going to apologize for Brandon, nor dispute some of the things that I agree with from MarkD's post; but one thing I will point out is that if you and MarkD feel that strongly negative about the book, how can you possibly put it all on Brandon???  Didn't Maria have an obligation to find inconsistencies?  Didn't Harriett read and sign off on the whole book?  Didn't Tor ever look into their overall process and say "Whoa - this is a recipe for disaster"  ??? 

 

For that matter, look to RJ himself for making the light side so strong that writing anything resembling believable suspense as to the outcome nearly impossible to attain.

 

The reality is we have what we have.  Harriett signed off, and many others as well - so don't pin this on Brandon alone.

 

I personally have come to grips that I didn't get all that I hoped for.  I'll live with it, and move on.

[XXX]

I am a fan of Sanderson. But among the 3 WOT books he wrote this was the worst.It is the first WoT book I did not re read throughly right after I finished the first time.

[MarkDiLillo]

@mik, markD

 

Regarding dropped plot points... The 2 that MarkD seems most upset by (as a result of them being introduced in Towers by BS) are Verins letters and Alanna. Verin's letters (based on interviews) was purposefully left out so you can agree/disagree with the decision but it wasn't forgotten. About this I agree with you, it would have been better to either leave out the letters or say something of what they contained.

 

However I completely disagree with you about the Alanna one. For me that was resolved to the exact degree it needed to be. Knowing earlier that Moridin had captured her or not would have ruined the suspense. Once she was already there, her last actions answered the question of whether or not she was a Darkfriend (at least it was sufficient for me)... The only way I can see that she could have been involved more and to not ruin the suspense would be to maybe see a scene of her fighting in Kandor, which would have answered where she was, given a suggestion of what was in her letter from Verin, but would also answer if she was a DF or not (at this stage fighting for the Light would suggest that you're not) and ruin that tension. Additionally either she's shown to be fine although fighting at which stage she's forgotten about or she's captured and their goes the tension (personal preference, but I always find the unknown more suspenseful than the known), it also gives us more fighting (and I've only read a few people that say they wanted that). Maybe I've missed options here?

 

Moiraine is another one.

 

And Verin's letters was not intentionally left out.  Brandon is acting like that was his intention so he doesn't look like a total fool in front of people during signings.  He forgot them.  Or else we would have had one sentence somewhere in the 900-some page book that referenced them at least once.

 

As for Alanna - I disagree with you.  The way her plot was handled felt like "oh crap I forgot about Alanna...brb gimme 5 min and ill fix it."

[Elathan]

I hoped for a better ending as well - but i don't think Brandon Sanderson didn't do everything he could. I don't know if anyone else - except RJ of course - could write it better.

[Tsukibana]

A question, maybe for a New Thread:

Anyone else feel that the last two book titles were... garbage might be too strong a word, but definitely inappropriate. 

[Elathan]

Yes, i do.

They didn't do much with the books, i don't know whose ideas were they.

 

Hmm. The DO was part of the Pattern, wasn't it? I think Rand should have destroyed it. He didn't, cause he loved Avi, and there was evil in Avi?

Why wouldn't he be better then the DO, if he destroys it?

 

Part of me is evil, part of me is stupid - and yes, without my evil and stupid part, i wouldn't be the same person. But i don't care, i would thank you anyway if you would destroy stupidity or evil.

[Suttree]

Hmm. The DO was part of the Pattern, wasn't it?

The DO is outside of the pattern.

[Mik]

@ mik

just so I understand correctly the meaning of your post - you did´t like AMOL - and you feel that BS feelt disdain for wot ? Y/N ?

Yup. The -only- thing I liked about AMoL, is that we finally have 'an ending'.

And I think when the dust settles, I won't even be happy about that, given the (absence of) quality.

 

AMoL could -and should!- have been such a great read, but instead we got a disturbingly bad read.

 

 

 

 

 

To me, it was spot on.

I don't like it one bit, that I felt exactly like this, ....especially throughout the first 800 (eight-hundred!) pages or so.

 

I felt genuinely, really sad for RJ and his legacy ..and often pissed off at Brandon, for what didn't just look like BS wasn't trying.... but that his words read like disdain for WoT.

 

 

 

I'm not going to apologize for Brandon, nor dispute some of the things that I agree with from MarkD's post; but one thing I will point out is that if you and MarkD feel that strongly negative about the book, how can you possibly put it all on Brandon???  Didn't Maria have an obligation to find inconsistencies?  Didn't Harriett read and sign off on the whole book?  Didn't Tor ever look into their overall process and say "Whoa - this is a recipe for disaster"  ??? 

 

For that matter, look to RJ himself for making the light side so strong that writing anything resembling believable suspense as to the outcome nearly impossible to attain.

 

The reality is we have what we have.  Harriett signed off, and many others as well - so don't pin this on Brandon alone.

 

I personally have come to grips that I didn't get all that I hoped for.  I'll live with it, and move on.

Harriet was probably stuck between a rock and a hardplace after 'her' choice. I think you have a point about Tor / Tom Doherty though.

Brandon was the writer. Period.

 

During my read, I often wondered how much more awful the story was when BS first submitted it to 'Team Jordan', because if I recall correct..they even did some revising that costed several months..right?

 

 

I am a fan of Sanderson. But among the 3 WOT books he wrote this was the worst.It is the first WoT book I did not re read throughly right after I finished the first time.

I don't know any of Sanderson's other books, but given the fact it has fans and given the fact he was deemed 'good enough' or 'the right (Tor?) writer' to finish WoT, it MUST make you wonder why the writing quality was god-awfull poor. I can't shake the feeling BS didn't -want- AMoL to be as good as it could. When I read it, it felt like he made it 'as poor as he could while getting away with it'.

 

 

 

@mik, markD

 

Regarding dropped plot points... The 2 that MarkD seems most upset by (as a result of them being introduced in Towers by BS) are Verins letters and Alanna. Verin's letters (based on interviews) was purposefully left out so you can agree/disagree with the decision but it wasn't forgotten. About this I agree with you, it would have been better to either leave out the letters or say something of what they contained.

 

However I completely disagree with you about the Alanna one. For me that was resolved to the exact degree it needed to be. Knowing earlier that Moridin had captured her or not would have ruined the suspense. Once she was already there, her last actions answered the question of whether or not she was a Darkfriend (at least it was sufficient for me)... The only way I can see that she could have been involved more and to not ruin the suspense would be to maybe see a scene of her fighting in Kandor, which would have answered where she was, given a suggestion of what was in her letter from Verin, but would also answer if she was a DF or not (at this stage fighting for the Light would suggest that you're not) and ruin that tension. Additionally either she's shown to be fine although fighting at which stage she's forgotten about or she's captured and their goes the tension (personal preference, but I always find the unknown more suspenseful than the known), it also gives us more fighting (and I've only read a few people that say they wanted that). Maybe I've missed options here?

 

Moiraine is another one.

 

And Verin's letters was not intentionally left out.  Brandon is acting like that was his intention so he doesn't look like a total fool in front of people during signings.  He forgot them.  Or else we would have had one sentence somewhere in the 900-some page book that referenced them at least once.

 

As for Alanna - I disagree with you.  The way her plot was handled felt like "oh crap I forgot about Alanna...brb gimme 5 min and ill fix it."

Moiraine in AMoL was appallingly bad. It totally ruined her character and -again-, if you have any love for WoT, noone in their right mind would write about her like that.

 

Alanna was a sidenote in the story. Felt like BS wrote about her just so he could cross another remark by Team Jordan off of his checklist. "Alanna"... *sqribbles 10 lines of text* "Check!"..

 

There was so much missing, it's uncanny... the ways... machin shin... sea folk.. (Bargain, Harine, prophecy, Moad (fd @ TGH gathering?)..etc ..etc)...I'll make a complete list when I have more time..

 

 

I hoped for a better ending as well - but i don't think Brandon Sanderson didn't do everything he could. I don't know if anyone else - except RJ of course - could write it better.

I disagree. BS did the poorest job possible he could get away with.

[BFG]

 

 

 

 

 

@mik, markD

 

Regarding dropped plot points... The 2 that MarkD seems most upset by (as a result of them being introduced in Towers by BS) are Verins letters and Alanna. Verin's letters (based on interviews) was purposefully left out so you can agree/disagree with the decision but it wasn't forgotten. About this I agree with you, it would have been better to either leave out the letters or say something of what they contained.

 

However I completely disagree with you about the Alanna one. For me that was resolved to the exact degree it needed to be. Knowing earlier that Moridin had captured her or not would have ruined the suspense. Once she was already there, her last actions answered the question of whether or not she was a Darkfriend (at least it was sufficient for me)... The only way I can see that she could have been involved more and to not ruin the suspense would be to maybe see a scene of her fighting in Kandor, which would have answered where she was, given a suggestion of what was in her letter from Verin, but would also answer if she was a DF or not (at this stage fighting for the Light would suggest that you're not) and ruin that tension. Additionally either she's shown to be fine although fighting at which stage she's forgotten about or she's captured and their goes the tension (personal preference, but I always find the unknown more suspenseful than the known), it also gives us more fighting (and I've only read a few people that say they wanted that). Maybe I've missed options here?

 

Moiraine is another one.

 

And Verin's letters was not intentionally left out.  Brandon is acting like that was his intention so he doesn't look like a total fool in front of people during signings.  He forgot them.  Or else we would have had one sentence somewhere in the 900-some page book that referenced them at least once.

 

As for Alanna - I disagree with you.  The way her plot was handled felt like "oh crap I forgot about Alanna...brb gimme 5 min and ill fix it."

I appreciate that their are more - as others have said on the Moiraine pages - her necessity was at FoM, she was the only person that could have salvaged that meeting as she was the only 1 that both Eg and Rand trusted enough. Eg didn't trust Cads and in fact believed that anybody that spent time with him got caught up in his taveran affect, Rand didn't trust the WT or their machinations that ruled out everybody that hadn't been 'dead' for the past several books. This is highlighted when Eg thinks that Cads relationship with Rand is a 'problem that needs looking at' and her thoughts re Elayne & Nyn. The legend that's been built around Moiraine allowed everyone else to respect her as well, witness Grady(? one of the Ashaman, not personally connected with her (that I remember)) to 'defend' her against glib comments.

 

Don't get me wrong, the FoM scene was a mess, with both Eg and Rand backtracking on several points re seals and armies and generally reads very poorly, but Moiraines role was 'solid' (not sure that's the right word). The reason I left it out was because it wasn't a situation that BS set up and thus didn't seem as 'personally insulting' (again, appreciate I may be overstating your reaction somewhat) to you.

 

Additionally I don't believe that we were ever going to get the Finns responses to all the questions/requests, but I don't know the database well enough to pull out a quote. Either way, if they were in RJs notes to be included in the book they would have been, so I have to conclude that they aren't important to the narrative *shrugs* (I know that BS and Harriet had to invent an awful lot, but you're going to have to provide a lot of evidence for me to believe that they left stuff out that he wanted included.

 

 

The letters is entirely your own thought. BS has openly admitted to forgetting characters like Dobraine, so I see no reason to disbelieve him about this. As I said, I think it fails, but I don't think it's fair to say he's forgotten about them.

 

 

I can understand that other people feel that Alanna was poorly handled. I can't think of a way that it would work better, and regardless it worked for me. It's another thing that's come full circle - Alanna has been a ticking bomb ever since she bonded Rand, it went off (in a big way). Nyn's revert to herbs is another 'throw-back'/'nod' to tEotW, specifically that they proved value in front of Moiraine, who has been Nyn's guide?ideal?competition? (really not sure of teh word to describe their relationship) since they met. What information do you want here, or perhaps what information is needed and why? How should it have been portrayed, when? As I said, I can't think of a better way.

[Elathan]

 

Hmm. The DO was part of the Pattern, wasn't it?

The DO is outside of the pattern.

 

But the DO was in everyone it seems. The DO out of the Pattern is just a white-dark world view from Rand I think.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

Hmm. The DO was part of the Pattern, wasn't it?

The DO is outside of the pattern.

 

But the DO was in everyone it seems. The DO out of the Pattern is just a white-dark world view from Rand I think.

The DO was not in everyone but killing him would apparently take away the choice to do evil, much like someone being turned losses the capability to do good.

 

Interview: Apr 7th, 2001

Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein (Verbatim)

RJ

The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither is affected by the Pattern.

[Elathan]

Hmm. Ok, i see... thx. But why is it bad, take away the choice to do evil?