Quality Discussion Thread

[suplanter]

im sure it has been mentioned, but i couldnt bring myself to dig through 27 pages at 330 in the morning, while i thoroughly enjoyed the book, the dialog..... OH MY GOD! it was terrible! Even in the RJ days the dialog ran to the cliche and the cheesy, but this was just hard to get by. I will admit it may have seemed worse than it was as this was the first wot book i have listened to and not read but it made everything that much worse! The two characters that really got the shaft were mat and moiraine. mat just seemed like an indifferent oblivious fool and moiraine was even worse. Then you had special friend demandred spouting nonsense on his hill. And am i the only one who is glad that there will never again be an exasperated woman storming off from a clueless or grinning man? i have been yelled at glared at sobbed on and suffered the pained awkward silences of car rides home but i cannot say i have ever been a part of the uncomfortable interactions that the men and women in these books seem to have. sorry for the rambling run on sentences but i thought that after a years worth of rereading it had to be brought up. i can only hope that when they turn this crazy monstrosity of a story into a movie they will have someone create the dialog a story this wonderful deserves to have.

[John Everyman]

I don't know, I feel Robert Jordan's biggest weakness by far is his incredibly lifeless dialogue, so I can't say I noticed much of a difference.  Characterization is somewhat different across the board, and prose isn't as good, but quality of dialogue?  Don't notice much difference. 

 

As for Demandred's cheesy dialogue... personally, I don't think he even touches the cringe worthy Ishamael dialogue from The Eye of the World.  The ham factor on that latter one was through the roof.  Almost turned me off of the series permanently. 

[jjstraka34]

the scene where mat n rand try to one up another is just so......pathetic i really cringed

This is emblematic of so many scenes. Jordan would have never written this, would have never considered writing it. I'm loathe to criticize Harriet as an editor, but she should have told him in no uncertain terms to cut some of this junk. The scene where Rand gets Moraine tea is another.

[Mr Ares]

 

/..:/ And so the books became more bloated under the latter than they would have done under RJ.

could we begin using " probably" or some other word that dose´t specifies that RJ per automatic would write it ( amol ) in the way we would expect  ( not that i am doubting that but all they same ) . it would save us some very irritating and endlessly repeating discussions

No. To overqualify ones opinions is an indicator they've been poorly phrased (even if not as bad as the utterly worthless turn of phrase "IMO" - if you have to tell people what's opinion and what isn't, you need to improve your writing, not stick in an acronym). If anything, I've already thrown around too many probablys.

 

 

 

Part of the problem is that RJ, while he did have plenty of scenes which could have been a bit shorter, could also convey information far more concisely, without losing anything. As I said, RJ took one chapter of KoD and made significant progress with Egwene. Brandon took a lot more to finish off her storyline - under him, it became more bloated. RJ could, at times, do things with great efficiency. The fighting in the last book suffered from being overly long. It was a grind, a slog. Some of it was justified, some of it was just sword and army porn. I tdon't imagine that RJ would have taken as long as Brandon did over many of these plots and scenes if he had written the last book. I think that if RJ hadn't died, three books would not have happened, and I think that even one book, while unlikely, was still within the bounds of possibility - Brandon wrote a lot more than RJ would have done. Part of the difference between the two authors comes in how they get their books to the length they do. And RJ, when he wanted to, could write far more efficiently that Sanderson does. And so the books became more bloated under the latter than they would have done under RJ.

 

This I disagree with, while Jordan made great progress with KoD, he could not have wrapped this up in one or two books. Three maybe, but I'd lean toward five. Take for instance Rand's peace with Seanchan. Never in a million years would Jordan have allowed this to become a 3 page scene in which Rand strolls in off the street, Mat whispers a few good words in Tuon's ear, and a conflict that has been going on since book two is wrapped up with handshake. It was almost insulting, taking all the problems with the meeting at the Field of Merrilor and cranking it up to 100. 

RJ could certainly wrap up plotlines with brevity. Further, if you take out some of the unnecessary stuff you'll be able to expand the page count for these scenes. I really don't see RJ, who was so insistent that it couldn't be done in more than one without harming the quality of the final books, expanding it even to three if he could possibly help it, let alone five.

 

 

Mr. Ares described this correctly. People here are lavishing wildly undeserved praise on 37. It was not a great scene, it was sword and army porn. I expect a hell of a lot more out of this series than that kind of fanboy shit

that wording is not justified  . What do you think the last battle should be about , a chat about moral and silk  ????

There is a difference between the Last Battle being a battle, and spending hundreds of pages on battles to the point it just becomes tedious and repetitive. Chapter 37 had many good points, and drew together well at the end, but it didn't need to be nearly 200 pages.

 

I do find the notion that a chapter entitled "The Last Battle" that features a long foreshadowed apocalyptic battle is considered "sword and army porn*" more than a little ridiculous.  That said, I am interested in military tactics, to the point where I wouldn't have minded a somewhat closer look at Mat's battle plan... but of course, neither Brandon Sanderson nor Robert Jordan were military geniuses, so it might have been better to leave it to the imagination. 

 

*Don't ever read the Malazan series. 

I have read Malazan. For all that it is a sometimes brilliant series, it is also immensely frustrating that the author was so inclined to army porn, navel gazing and bloat. That said, Malzan was better suited to hundreds of pages of battles as a last book than WoT, so really WoT outdid Malazan at its own game.

 

I think that we didn't need three books to end it we needed at least 4, RJ saying 1 was simply because he didn't think he had much time.

His stated reason was structural - despite there being a lot still to cover, he felt he could only write one more good book. The structural problems of ToM and AMoL lend credence to this. It should be noted that some of RJ's weakest entries into the series, the most heavily criticised period, was the one which also suffered the most structural problems - PoD/WH and CoT/KoD being better suited to two books rather than four. ACoS also has to finish a lot of things started in LoC (the BoW and Sammael plotlines were both begun there, with the Sammael storyline being essentially a LoC plotline with a climax in ACoS). ACoS also marks the first time that the beginning of one book overlapped with the end of the last.

 

Admittedly, my memory is not what it used to be, but I didn't have to 'read what RJ actually said' when I can remember hearing him say it out loud all those years ago. 

 

My point being, many fans learned to take RJ with a grain of salt whenever he talked about the future of the series.

Well, I tend to have little faith in what someone with an admittedly faulty memory can remember RJ saying over a decade ago, especially when we have an extensive database which includes a great many statements from RJ that fans recorded and were subsequently transcribed, and he said "at least" over and over again, with the release of KoD onwards being the only time he offered a hard number, that being one more book. My point being, those with an awareness of what RJ actually said know that when he said one more book, that was atypical compared to the minimum he usually offered, and therefore grains of salt were not in order, or not so much as you (or other elements of fandom) seem to think they are.

 

 

 

Admittedly, my memory is not what it used to be, but I didn't have to 'read what RJ actually said' when I can remember hearing him say it out loud all those years ago. 

 

My point being, many fans learned to take RJ with a grain of salt whenever he talked about the future of the series.

 

 

 

I think the first time RJ said 3 more books we got 6 more.... so obivously that 1 more book had to mean 2 or 3 more. ;)

 

I wish people would bother to read what RJ actually said - he frequently said things like "at least X more books", then with CoT he said "probably 2 more". The only time he said for damn sure how many were left was with KoD. He never said three more books.

Actually, its a confirmed quote that when RJ wrote EoTW, that he thought it would only be a Trilogy.

True, but not relevant. His plan for the first book in that trilogy encompassed the events of the first three books. So he wasn't inclined to say "three more books" back then, nor was he ever so inclined.

 

 

There are so many problems with the battle scenes I honestly don't know where to begin. Inane strategies, numbers off, channelers powered down or flat out non-existent. Further much of the fighting seemed like a video game where waves of bad guys are basically fodder. It turned into battle porn and huge sections of it could have been cut out without losing a single thing.

 

Cutting the battle porn would lose the chaos of Tarmon Gai'don, it would lose the desperation I read into the scenes. The soldiers unrealistically fighting for hours, and hours with no strength then rallying because it was that or die. The emphasis on the human spirit to go against all odds again and again.

 

Thats at least how I read the scenes. Maybe thats just my style. I dont bean count, I dont map out the strategies and movements on the map provided. I am looking for the pulse and feel of the conflict. I can overlook and forget about the numbers and tactics without it pulling me out of the book.

I don't see the need for a trade off. Look at, for example, the timeline - RJ was able to keep a very good timeline, BS wasn't. Now, if when event x happens in relation event y isn't all that important to you, it won't matter that much if you can't quite work it out, but you lose nothing from having a consistent timeline. Likewise you lose nothing from being able to keep track of the numbers, the movements of formations, the tactics and strategies used by the generals (as opposed to "I'm playing cards - I just have to win one big hand").

 

Alright, lets just do the bare minimum and see what Jordan is going to do in 1,200 pages when he can barely get our heroes out of the Stone in 400......

...

Average those out over 1,200 pages....and each one would get about the amount of space as Min arriving at the Tower, Dain taking a Ferry, and Suroth monologuing. Personally, I think most, if not all, of them deserve more then that.

Rather an unfair comparison - you're comparing the amount of time he spent on set up to the amount Brandon spent on climaxes.

 

World errors - I could be completely wrong but a few things stood out to me. Circles and how they were handled in this book. Think that is wrong. Pevara also says that a circle can have 2 men and 1 woman. Thought it had to be equal or have more women but could not have more men. Mat and the horn...pretty sure there is a RJ quote saying that Mat was NOT unlinked to the horn since he never died (as the bale fire undid his death because he 'never died'). Pevara fighting Ashaman at the BT. She single handedly beats 3? 4? Of them? Men are more powerful in the OP than women, but women can link and men can't. That's been sort of the golden rule. Maybe she is that strong and the Ashaman that weak, but it sure jarred me that she could overcome them.

Actually, the two men one women circle has been noted before (either in the glossaries or the BWB) as an exception to the more women than men rule. I'm not aware of any RJ quote saying Mat was still linked, only that he didn't die in Rhuidean. And winning a fight has to do with more than just strength in the OP, so even if Pevara is weaker that doesn't really indicate anything. None of these are errors.

[gregweum]

Is Jordan AND Sanderson guilty of losing the plot completely? Yes. Both ridiculously strung it all out in order to milk the cash cow.

 

I wish I didn't agree with this

[flinn]

 

Is Jordan AND Sanderson guilty of losing the plot completely? Yes. Both ridiculously strung it all out in order to milk the cash cow.

 

I wish I didn't agree with this

I don't, there is no "cash cow" for Sanderson. From what I heard him say, he was paid to write ONE book. There was no renegotation for 3 books.

If that changed, I didnt hear about it.

 

 I am willing to bet, Sanderson would have much prefered to have spent the last two books writing his own series "Way of Kings" is great IMO.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

 

Is Jordan AND Sanderson guilty of losing the plot completely? Yes. Both ridiculously strung it all out in order to milk the cash cow.

 

I wish I didn't agree with this

I don't, there is no "cash cow" for Sanderson. From what I heard him say, he was paid to write ONE book. There was no renegotation for 3 books.

If that changed, I didnt hear about it.

 

 I am willing to bet, Sanderson would have much prefered to have spent the last two books writing his own series "Way of Kings" is great IMO.

 

If that's true then it explains a lot.  I highly doubt it is true though.

[flinn]

 

 

 

Is Jordan AND Sanderson guilty of losing the plot completely? Yes. Both ridiculously strung it all out in order to milk the cash cow.

 

I wish I didn't agree with this

I don't, there is no "cash cow" for Sanderson. From what I heard him say, he was paid to write ONE book. There was no renegotation for 3 books.

If that changed, I didnt hear about it.

 

 I am willing to bet, Sanderson would have much prefered to have spent the last two books writing his own series "Way of Kings" is great IMO.

 

If that's true then it explains a lot.  I highly doubt it is true though.

 He said it on his blog on his website not long after they decided to split the books. He said he was doing it because he knew everyone wanted to see the ending.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

Is Jordan AND Sanderson guilty of losing the plot completely? Yes. Both ridiculously strung it all out in order to milk the cash cow.

I wish I didn't agree with this

I don't, there is no "cash cow" for Sanderson. From what I heard him say, he was paid to write ONE book. There was no renegotation for 3 books.

If that changed, I didnt hear about it.

 

I am willing to bet, Sanderson would have much prefered to have spent the last two books writing his own series "Way of Kings" is great IMO.

Flinn come on mate. I don't know the particulars of the contract(although I have doubts you are remembering that right, would love to see a quote) to say the WoT has not seriously upped Brandon's exposure and added to his own career from a monetary perspective is pretty ridiculous.

[flinn]

 

 

 

 

Is Jordan AND Sanderson guilty of losing the plot completely? Yes. Both ridiculously strung it all out in order to milk the cash cow.

I wish I didn't agree with this

I don't, there is no "cash cow" for Sanderson. From what I heard him say, he was paid to write ONE book. There was no renegotation for 3 books.

If that changed, I didnt hear about it.

 

I am willing to bet, Sanderson would have much prefered to have spent the last two books writing his own series "Way of Kings" is great IMO.

Flinn come on mate. I don't know the particulars of the contract(although I have doubts on what you claim above) to say the WoT has not seriously upped Brandon's exposure and added to his own career from a monetary perspective is pretty ridiculous.

 Well there is exposure, but riding the cash cow and exposure are two entirely different things.

[Suttree]

Oh I agree and we know Brandon was against the split anyway. He didn't think it should be done and thought the books could be finished in less. Regardless he is going to make a good deal of money of this in the long run.

[Suttree]

 

 

Alright, lets just do the bare minimum and see what Jordan is going to do in 1,200 pages when he can barely get our heroes out of the Stone in 400......

...

Average those out over 1,200 pages....and each one would get about the amount of space as Min arriving at the Tower, Dain taking a Ferry, and Suroth monologuing. Personally, I think most, if not all, of them deserve more then that.

Rather an unfair comparison - you're comparing the amount of time he spent on set up to the amount Brandon spent on climaxes.

This is of course something one must take into account along with the various other things mentioned last night.

[MarkDiLillo]

LOL i just browsed a couple twitter accounts and it is filled with Brandon telling everyone he did a GREAT job.  not a good job, but a GREAT job.  just L O L

 

i would love to say more, but its hard to without violating policy and getting a big fat ban

[jjstraka34]

I'd give him a B+ for "The Gathering Storm", C for "Towers of Midnight" and a D+ for "A Memory of Light" since I generally believe that the second half of the book is saved because Jordan left alot more detail about those parts, or in fact wrote certain sections of them himself. Brandon didn't do everything wrong, but at certain points you just looked up from the book and had to shake your head. 

[MarkDiLillo]

I'd give him a B+ for "The Gathering Storm", C for "Towers of Midnight" and a D+ for "A Memory of Light" since I generally believe that the second half of the book is saved because Jordan left alot more detail about those parts, or in fact wrote certain sections of them himself. Brandon didn't do everything wrong, but at certain points you just looked up from the book and had to shake your head. 

 

After reading what I did, it's really hard for me to not talk about him on a personal level so I'm just going to avoid it altogether.  Needless to say, I hope some people who have an insider view on the whole thing post the truth at some point soon.  He doesn't deserve the truth to be swept under the rug at this point.

 

I think I generally agree with your assessment of the books though.  I'd give aMoL an F instead of a D+.

[deepak_dragonreborn]

It pains me to admit but IMO ToM and AMoL were not as good as TGS. I think in TGS Brandon tried extra hard to make sure there aren't any sudden changes in the writing and paid attention to small details etc. But after the success of TGS he might have become more lax and tried to influence ToM and AMoL with his writing style... Thats probably why we feel such a stark difference in AMOL...

Overall though I think we should respect Brandon for what he has done for the series. He got us an ending, and it might not have been the best but it was pretty darn close... I just wish we could have read the ending the way RJ wanted it to be (I dont mean the epilogue, but the Rand vs DO scene).

[jjstraka34]

 

After reading what I did, it's really hard for me to not talk about him on a personal level so I'm just going to avoid it altogether.  Needless to say, I hope some people who have an insider view on the whole thing post the truth at some point soon.  He doesn't deserve the truth to be swept under the rug at this point.

 

Interested in what you mean by this, since I don't blame him personally. I'm critical of ALOT of choices he made, but he did see it through to completion. I have no doubt he gave it his all, at times that paid off, it just didn't happen to for a significant portion of the final book. 

[jjstraka34]

It pains me to admit but IMO ToM and AMoL were not as good as TGS. I think in TGS Brandon tried extra hard to make sure there aren't any sudden changes in the writing and paid attention to small details etc. But after the success of TGS he might have become more lax and tried to influence ToM and AMoL with his writing style... Thats probably why we feel such a stark difference in AMOL...

 

I think this is a pretty wise statement. There was bits and pieces were I was conscience enough of someone else writing in TGS, but never enough to ruin the experience. In AMoL it started happening so much that I started actively looking without even really wanting to. 

[Mr. Micawber]

I'd give him a B+ for "The Gathering Storm", C for "Towers of Midnight" and a D+ for "A Memory of Light" since I generally believe that the second half of the book is saved because Jordan left alot more detail about those parts, or in fact wrote certain sections of them himself. Brandon didn't do everything wrong, but at certain points you just looked up from the book and had to shake your head. 

 

After reading what I did, it's really hard for me to not talk about him on a personal level so I'm just going to avoid it altogether.  Needless to say, I hope some people who have an insider view on the whole thing post the truth at some point soon.  He doesn't deserve the truth to be swept under the rug at this point.

 

I think I generally agree with your assessment of the books though.  I'd give aMoL an F instead of a D+.

 

Giving him a D definitely skirts the issue, and I agree we need to give him an F, because despite entertaining parts, the work as a whole was an unmitigated disaster. This is a matter of not wanting to sound critical.

[Ryrin]

I was again thinking of the deaths of Siuan and Gareth. All through the last books, Siuan has been either with Egwene or right next to Gareth. I think it's implausible that she just up and leaves Gareth (while he is under compulsion no less) decides that Mat is in danger (to my knowledge she does not have the talent of foretelling)sneaks up and saves Min while getting herself killed.

 

Too many one liners for deaths, major events etc.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

 

After reading what I did, it's really hard for me to not talk about him on a personal level so I'm just going to avoid it altogether.  Needless to say, I hope some people who have an insider view on the whole thing post the truth at some point soon.  He doesn't deserve the truth to be swept under the rug at this point.

 

Interested in what you mean by this, since I don't blame him personally. I'm critical of ALOT of choices he made, but he did see it through to completion. I have no doubt he gave it his all, at times that paid off, it just didn't happen to for a significant portion of the final book. 

 

It's not about choices.  His mindset appears to be one of "I'm writing this and its art so I am immune to all criticism.  I'm right and you are all wrong.  It's over now so leave me alone."  Basically a childs mindset when dealing with criticism.

[jjstraka34]

 

Giving him a D definitely skirts the issue, and I agree we need to give him an F, because despite entertaining parts, the work as a whole was an unmitigated disaster. This is a matter of not wanting to sound critical.

 

I give a D because the Prologue was very good, and whatever his level of involvement in "The Last Battle" chapter was solid. Aside from the general pacing and dialogue between main characters,which is the main problem, I found that the handling of the Dragon's Peace and the truce with Tuon were just unforgivable. An F would indicate I wanted to throw the book in the trash, and that isn't the case. But certain things made me cringe for sure. 

[Mr. Micawber]

 

After reading what I did, it's really hard for me to not talk about him on a personal level so I'm just going to avoid it altogether.  Needless to say, I hope some people who have an insider view on the whole thing post the truth at some point soon.  He doesn't deserve the truth to be swept under the rug at this point.

 

Interested in what you mean by this, since I don't blame him personally. I'm critical of ALOT of choices he made, but he did see it through to completion. I have no doubt he gave it his all, at times that paid off, it just didn't happen to for a significant portion of the final book. 

 

It's not about choices.  His mindset appears to be one of "I'm writing this and its art so I am immune to all criticism.  I'm right and you are all wrong.  It's over now so leave me alone."  Basically a childs mindset when dealing with criticism.

 

It's not even like we're not used to established authors (including Jordan and many other extremely prominent fantasy writers) saying this. They often have a very high view of their own talents

 

It's that it gets extraordinarily angering to watch someone who's a replacement author saying this crap. A little modesty and an acknowledgement of the difficulty of the job and the possibility of messing up would go a long way here

[Razumikhin]

I'm rather new to is board - is there some particular instance you could direct me to which is the basis for these remarks about Sanderson's attitude towards criticism?

[MarkDiLillo]

 

 

 

 

 

 

After reading what I did, it's really hard for me to not talk about him on a personal level so I'm just going to avoid it altogether.  Needless to say, I hope some people who have an insider view on the whole thing post the truth at some point soon.  He doesn't deserve the truth to be swept under the rug at this point.

 

 

Interested in what you mean by this, since I don't blame him personally. I'm critical of ALOT of choices he made, but he did see it through to completion. I have no doubt he gave it his all, at times that paid off, it just didn't happen to for a significant portion of the final book. 

 

 

It's not about choices.  His mindset appears to be one of "I'm writing this and its art so I am immune to all criticism.  I'm right and you are all wrong.  It's over now so leave me alone."  Basically a childs mindset when dealing with criticism.

 

It's not even like we're not used to established authors (including Jordan and many other extremely prominent fantasy writers) saying this. They often have a very high view of their own talents

 

It's that it gets extraordinarily angering to watch someone who's a replacement author saying this crap. A little modesty and an acknowledgement of the difficulty of the job and the possibility of messing up would go a long way here

 

The biggest problem I have is that he flat out didn't care enough to get things right.  This last book has so many holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions that it is absurd.  Ignore the parts about Demandred feeling "off", the parts with Gateways getting a little too wild, and everything else that is opinion oriented.  There are MASSIVE plot holes and parts where he just flat out forgot to include something important in the book.  He wants to call it art, but this isn't the art side of literature.  It would be like painting a portrait and forgetting to draw their nose.  Its a technical fault and it needs to be addressed as a technical fault.