[Green Ajah Animal Appreciation Week]. Animal Cruelty Discussion

[Luciena]

Welcome everyone to the Green Ajah Animal Appreciation Week ( Animal Cruelty Discussion)

 

This is a friendly discussion so even if spirits get high I would appreciate it if you would all be courteous towards one another. (or else mummy Elgee  might crack her whip   ) 

 

This discussion will have several topics and either Xthrax or I will post each discussion topic on here. 

 

The topics for discussion will be around the Fur Industry, Animal Testing and Animals in the Entertainment Industry.

 

We will post a short text every day, introducing the topic with some facts and some questions. Feel free to answer the questions or not, it's up to you.

 

They are simply there as a basis for discussion. Do please bring in your own topics that relate to the discussion.

 

We would love to hear what you have to say in the matter.

 

 

[Luciena]

The Fur Industry

There's no denying that fur is beautiful, but fur is the product of organized animal cruelty. Although there are other big businesses where animals are treated badly, no other is as redundant as the fur farms. Keeping cows, pigs or chickens, provide food, and humans do need food. But in this modern day, we don't need fur. We have modern materials that keep us just as warm as fur. So can we support an industry, where animals are kept in small wire cages, where we can't give them anything even resembling their natural life?

These are some facts from Norway: Foxes and minks are amongst the most common animals in fur farms. Foxes in nature live in big family group, and they burrow tunnels under the ground; a group can live in a big extended system of tunnels spanning meters and meters of land. Minks are water-animals, they're made for swimming and always live by water. These breeds, are forced to live in wire cages, that's too small, where they're either alone or with one other animal. They get bad habits; they can chew on themselves or the animal with them, attack each other, kill off their pups and eat them… They go psychotic, more or less. In Norway, foxes are held in cages that's 0.8 square meters. If they are two together, they get 1.2 square meters. The cage contains a little shelf, a box to have pups, and a "toy", which is usually a wooden stick. They are killed with electricity. Minks are kept in cages that's about 1/4 square meter, and contains a little box, some straw, and a "toy" that's usually a plastic tube. Two minks live in that space. They're killed with CO2-gass,

A lot of countries have a complete partial ban on fur farms, or a date set for a ban within the next few years. Some of those in Europe are:  Bosnia-Herzegovina, Denmark, England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Austria, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia and the Netherlands.

China is the biggest producer of furs in the world.

There are a lot more species being used in the fur industry, and what types of animals used wary from country to country. To read more, check out this page from PETA:
http://www.peta.org/...ed-for-fur.aspx

Unfortunatley, fur farms are not the only way to get furs. A lot of companies trap aild animals for their fur. This is usually done by a spring steel-jaw trap. You all know the concept: The animal step on it, the trap snaps shut on the animals leg, it's stuck. This is done to coyotes, wolves, bobcats, opossums, raccoons, you name it. It can take days for the trappers to find the animals, so they have a slow, painful death, often attempting to chew of the trapped limb, before dying from blood loss, starvation, or frostbite. But that's not the only horrible effect of these traps. Every year, hundreds or thousands of pets, birds or other animals not intended for the traps, end up in them anyway. So not only is it a waste of lives of wild wolves, but also a lot of animals that the traps are not meant for.
For more information on traps, again PETA gives us a handy info-page:http://www.peta.org/...r-trapping.aspx

PS: Fur from animals that people have hunted and killed themselves, as long as the hunt has been done in a way to cause as little stress or pain to the animal as possible, is of course an entirely different matter than the fur industry.

Is fur necessary, despite the pain and stress it gives thousands of animals each year? How is your country/region when it comes to fur; do they allow farms or trapping? Would you ever buy fur, and if so, do you feel differently about new fur or second hand/used fur? If you are against fur, how do you feel about leather, wool or silk; is there a difference to you?

[michellem]

I live in a country where there's still fur farms, we've just had our goverment elections and that has been a hot topic. Most people want fur farms to be banned; I'm one of them. I honestly gotta say I don't see the point. There very unfriendly to the enviroment (takes a lot of chemicals and stuff to process the furs), and I can't see that we need fur in todays society!

 

I do think leather, wool and silk is a very different matter though. Leather is a by-product of the meat industry, and if the animals is gonna we, at least we better use all of it, so nothing goes to waste *nods* And wool, the sheeps don't die for it, and considering how we humans have tamed sheeps and changed some of their natural thingies, we have to cut their wool, because it never stops growing! Same goes for llamas and alpacas. The only thing I'm wary of, is merino wool, and Australian sheep skin products in general. They do something that's called "mulesing", wich involves gutting out pieces of skin on the lambs backsides :( It is to prevent some kind of disease I think, but still... The animal is alive when they do it, and they walk around with their flesh exposed. So if I am planning on buying some wool product that I know originates in Australia, I check if it comes from farms doing that, and if it does, I won't buy them. Silk I don't really know much about, I gotta admit, but I also have to admit that when it comes to bugs, my empathy is much less It's hard you know? I keep trying to tell myself that they can feel pain too, but at the same time, it's no where near the level the emotional distress a fox in a fur farm does.

 

Not that I can afford silk anyway though

[WildTaltos]

I dont agree with furr farms, especialy if your treatin the animalls horribly, but I see nothng wrong with wearing fur - as longg as yuo are the one who killed the animall(s). And unless yuo are a hunter, that excludes probaly most of the peoplle who wear fur. I usuallyy wear fur and skin in winter, and i dont find the argument valid of you dont have to wearr fur to keep warm because there is unpronuoncable materials now to replace it - I wuoldnt wear those materialls becuse that wuold put me in a state of depndency on modern product, besids that the hunt is somthing sacred to my religion, and betwening maintaining waht freedom I can and using and respcting almost all parts of what I hunt or trap, I wuoldnt wear articifial crap. I have the same philosphy with meat - its ok to eat meat, as long as yuo are the one who killedd the animal(s). and that excludes most people, at lest in the west, who eat meat - it maeks me sick to my stomachh to see peoplle cringe at th site of blood and say, oh thatts so horible or disgsting when watchinng someone else slaughter an animall, but then theyll happily go eat a burger or a steak withuot a second thuoght. If yuo are not man enuogh to take that life yuorself and undrstand that yuo are taken life to continue your own, and insted jjust view it as a delicious comodity, you dont desrve to touch any animall product that requires to take th animals life and shuold just be eating porridge and soy productts all th time or whatever. 

 

Anyways, in regardds to trapping,as long as it kills th animal relativly fast, I am ok with it - I use deadfalls and snares which I will eithre check evry day or every few days, and ideally they kill th animal instntly, in the case of snares, I always hope tht it gets thm aruond the neckk so they get chokked off pretty fast Sometimes thts not the case - sometimes they aer still alive whn I come back aruond, and I will apologise to them then put them out of thir misery as fast as possible. If yuo cant be checkin yuor traps evry day or so to make sure the animall doesnt suffer much, you hav no busines laying them out becuse doesnt show much respect for the animall at all. Last I knew, there are minkk fur farms here and nothinng else, whih is pretty disgsting, i get involvd in any petitions I can to try to get themm banned. As for allowin trapping...lol I dont know, I just do it, I dont know of or care of any laws abuot it. I have buoght fur from some trappers/hunters Im acquaintd with in othre countries becuse it may not be fuond here - for exmple, cant find wolves here anymore - but I belive its aceptable either becuse I helped themm hunt the animall or I am well aware taht an animal had to die for it and I am respctful and grateful to it even if I didnt know it personaly, unliek most peoplle who again, dont even sem to realise that a life had to end for themm to have what they have or thhey just dont care becuse they think animals are worthless and sub-human. Leathre sort of is on the same principal - kill th animall or have kiled before and respct the memory of that animal or yuo shouldnt touch it, while wool doesnt cost any lives so I dont think of it too much. I really dont know how silk is produced othre than it is an insect by-product so Im not qualifid to say anythng abuot that besids that I dont own silk and neither does much of anyone esle I know lol. 

[Brandie]

I don't buy fur, I just don't care for wearing it. I don't get upset at others for wearing it, although I can't remember the last time I saw someone wearing real fur. The fur farms are terrible but I think they're still allowed here in the US, it wouldn't surprise me... Pretty much every other kind of animal cruelty is. I do think that there is a huge difference between fur and wool/silk/leather. Furs are obtained by killing the animal, and it seems that most of the animals whose pelts are in demand are animals that we don't use for food, so them being held in terrible living conditions and then slaughtered just for their coat is very sad to me. I don't have as much of a problem with leather, some things you just have to have leather for. Wool and silk, I have no issue with at all.

[tonnalea]

When the Native Americans would kill an animal, nothing went to waste. We used the fur for clothing or for housing, the bones were used for 

various items, and the meat was eaten. There is a use for every part of the animal, even the blood. I know people who still live like that. They

rely on the land to provide for themselves and that is perfectly acceptable to me. 

 

When people raise animals for the sole purpose of taking their coats, to me, that is cruelty and is also a waste. The animals in these places are

trapped and usually mistreated, most of the time their deaths are inhumane. Wool farms don't bother me, those animals are usually well cared 

for and they aren't killed, they are shaved. Fur farms I completely disagree with. 

[michellem]

Taltos, I definatly think it's not even comparable to a hunter like you, and the big companies who do this for a living! I actually salute you for being so self-provided, it's rare in our modern society, but I think it's wonderful. I would love to live like you do. It's the fur industry I have a problem with; I should have clarified that when I said there's no need for fur in todays society. I ment those rich ladies who buy a fur coat just to show off, or a scarf with a fur trim or whatever, when it's solely about fashion and for show. There's a lot of really pretty fake fur coats and fake fur scarfs for those who want it for the fashion. Your situation is a completly different matter *nods*

[Brandie]

I agree, Mish and Tonna. Tal, I think that your ability to live with and use nature to provide for your needs is very admirable.

[Xthrax]

Tal, you being a hunter and your ability to provide yourself is extremly admirable. Older day cavemen and hunters too used to hunt animals, used to clothe themselves in fur of animals but that was done in nesscity. Today, species are hunted to extinction by fur farms and companies who sponsor them. Companies are hurriedly organising such farms wherever they find animals with skin that is prized by some in our society. 

Why do people go after such products? People rush out madly and would pay anything to get a fox fur coat or scarf or a alligator skin bag. As a result different kinds of foxes like the artic or red tsiled foxes have beenalmost driven to exctinction. And these animals are don't even suspect the trap. Nature provides us with enough, so why go overboard? What would you like to do to help these species? What are the laws in your country to prevent this? Do organistions take a big role in these matters?

[michellem]

Oh you mention something important there indeed Xhtrax: Alligator and snake skin. That is also a horrible, horrible business. Snakes are foten captured, and given a nail through the head pinning them to a tree, and then left to die, before someone comes back to fetch it. Alligators and snakes are captured in the wild, and since they are reptiles, it seems like it's ok to use even more brute force and pain on them for some reason. Fine, I don't like snakes or alligators, they creep me out and scare me, but I don't want them to suffer either.

[tonnalea]

I know that this has nothing to do with fur, but I saw a picture awhile back of a fishing company that had been using dogs as shark bait.

They were taking fishing hooks, like the ones that they would use for deep sea fishing for large fish, and hooking it through the dog's mouth

and dropping the animal (still alive) into the ocean. The dog was forced to swim like that, blood pouring out of the poor thing's mouth to attract

sharks. The shark would then, of course, bite into the dog and the fisherman would have their catch. This really upset me, especially since the 

picture that I saw was making use of a Golden Retriever, which is one of my favorite dog breeds. 

[michellem]

Oh my god, that is HORRIBLE Tonna!

[Luciena]

I believe the whole industry is based on supply and demand of the materials used in fashion. Admittedly not everyone has the money to go and buy a 20k crocodile skin bag (true story). However the fact that most of the major fashion houses use leather/fur and provide it to the ones that ask for it should be made illegal in my personal opinion.

 

What worries me is the fact that most of the animals we should worry about are in the wild and very close to extinction. The Rhino's are being hunted down, mostly in Asia as they use their horns for medicinal purposes and making trinkets, however with the advancement of science they are being proved wrong. 

 

Black Rhino population went down almost by 96% from 1970 to 1993. (figures taken from:  http://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/rhino_population_figures if you are interested to read more click the link)

 

With the effort of several organisations we have people to try to breed them in captivity and steps are being taken to save the ones that are in the wild as well as the ones in captivity. The above organisation is going to a great effort to make sure populations increase.

[Brandie]

Tal, you being a hunter and your ability to provide yourself is extremly admirable. Older day cavemen and hunters too used to hunt animals, used to clothe themselves in fur of animals but that was done in nesscity. Today, species are hunted to extinction by fur farms and companies who sponsor them. Companies are hurriedly organising such farms wherever they find animals with skin that is prized by some in our society. 

Why do people go after such products? People rush out madly and would pay anything to get a fox fur coat or scarf or a alligator skin bag. As a result different kinds of foxes like the artic or red tsiled foxes have beenalmost driven to exctinction. And these animals are don't even suspect the trap. Nature provides us with enough, so why go overboard? What would you like to do to help these species? What are the laws in your country to prevent this? Do organistions take a big role in these matters?

Good points made, Xthrax. There are quite a few organizations that are trying to help these animals but I think that the industries that make a profit from the exploitation of these animals just have a lot more money to work with.

 

Oh you mention something important there indeed Xhtrax: Alligator and snake skin. That is also a horrible, horrible business. Snakes are foten captured, and given a nail through the head pinning them to a tree, and then left to die, before someone comes back to fetch it. Alligators and snakes are captured in the wild, and since they are reptiles, it seems like it's ok to use even more brute force and pain on them for some reason. Fine, I don't like snakes or alligators, they creep me out and scare me, but I don't want them to suffer either.

I was actually watching the History channel the other day with my son and the show Swamp People came on. I wasn't really paying that much attention to it, just kind of doing my own thing while lil man watched TV. Then I heard a gunshot from the TV and my son runs to me all upset, THEY SHOT THE ALLIGATOR ON TELEVISION! I was appalled and he was very upset. This is what the history channel has come to? A bunch of hicks who can't speak proper english shooting gators on prime time television? They get quite a bit of money for the alligators too, plus a big bonus from the TV show I'm sure.

 

I know that this has nothing to do with fur, but I saw a picture awhile back of a fishing company that had been using dogs as shark bait.

They were taking fishing hooks, like the ones that they would use for deep sea fishing for large fish, and hooking it through the dog's mouth

and dropping the animal (still alive) into the ocean. The dog was forced to swim like that, blood pouring out of the poor thing's mouth to attract

sharks. The shark would then, of course, bite into the dog and the fisherman would have their catch. This really upset me, especially since the 

picture that I saw was making use of a Golden Retriever, which is one of my favorite dog breeds. 

That's absolutely terrible!

 

I believe the whole industry is based on supply and demand of the materials used in fashion. Admittedly not everyone has the money to go and buy a 20k crocodile skin bag (true story). However the fact that most of the major fashion houses use leather/fur and provide it to the ones that ask for it should be made illegal in my personal opinion.

 

What worries me is the fact that most of the animals we should worry about are in the wild and very close to extinction. The Rhino's are being hunted down, mostly in Asia as they use their horns for medicinal purposes and making trinkets, however with the advancement of science they are being proved wrong. 

 

Black Rhino population went down almost by 96% from 1970 to 1993. (figures taken from:  http://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/rhino_population_figures if you are interested to read more click the link)

 

With the effort of several organisations we have people to try to breed them in captivity and steps are being taken to save the ones that are in the wild as well as the ones in captivity. The above organisation is going to a great effort to make sure populations increase.

Now if we could only figure out a way to convince the upper class to stop buying skins and furs, most of the issue would resolve itself.

[_CLOUD]

I don't think that wearing fur is necessary at all for people who are living in a modern society, and it has just become a fashion statement which needs to change. It only causes unnecessary pain and suffering to the animals involved which is just plainly horrible. I agree with the things Taltos has said though, and I don't see anything wrong with hunters killing animals in a respectable and humane way to use their skin or other parts of the animal because they rely on their land to survive, which I find very admirable. I also think that leather, wool and silk are different matters because they don't cause any suffering to the animals and if we wouldn't shave our sheep they would die of heat illnesses >.> The problem lies with the big fur industries that are trying to make a profit out of it. I don't only see problems with the fur industry, but also the meat industry in general. I mean just because the industry wants to make a better profit animals are being fed growth hormones, which also all end up in our own system after we eat them. This is causing major health issues for everyone around the world, and especially in countries where the regulations aren't as strict which is sadly also the U.S. The animals are also kept in way too small cages where the bigger animals like calves can't even turn around or take a walk, and just lie down in their own filth waiting to get slaughtered. It's just terrible and I would be very happy if more people who could afford it bought biological meat, and come to the realization that most of us don't need to eat as much meat as we do. Meat was a luxury product in the past, but now it has become affordable for a large part of the human population and it is still a sign of prosperity.

[Xthrax]

I agree with Cloud. Another that we do to further our own ends is Animal Testing. This instead increases cruelty upon animals more.

 

Animals are used all around the globe for testing of various things for humans; medicines, cosmetics, household products. The animals used are all kinds of small animals; mice, rats, hamsters, ferrets, rabbits, and also dogs, cats and small primates. They are given injections, new ingredients are put on their skin or eyes to check for reactions, they may be injected with viruses or cancer cells to test medicines.

Animal testing is one of those fields that are hard to give a straight opinion on. Most people would agree that testing cosmetics on animals is needless cruelty; cosmetics are made only for human vanity. In fact, the European Union has banned the important of cosmetics tested on animals. It's hard to argue against that lipstick aren't so important than lots of small animals has to suffer and die for the companies to test their new lip plumper-effect or check if this new colour they want to make is safe. Especially today, when scientist can actually grow human skin cell cultures and other things (like a 3-d tissue structure similar to the cornea of an eye, making it possible to test how damaging to an eye a product is).And yet, so many big cosmetic companies continue with animal testing. They hide behind the fear of lawsuits and a desire to provide their costumers with safe products. But with so many, many products on the market, do we really think it's fair or right that animals should die while Johnson & Johnson make a new Volume Boost shampoo? And even so-called specialists on the field protest removing animal testing from cosmetics:
"Recently, a scientist from the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC), while acknowledging that there "are non-animal tests that are really valuable, informative, cheaper, and quicker" than animal tests, publicly disagreed with the EU ban on cosmetics testing on animals, claiming that "we need to test these products on live things" instead of using the widely accepted, validated non-animal alternatives to test cosmetics. "

What can we as consumers do? We can write to companies we know use animal testing and tell them how we feel about it. Or we can change our shopping-habits to cruelty-free products. Because I can assure you, there is a cruelty-free alternative to every product you use and love! PETA has a big list of companies that are cruelty-free,http://www.peta.org/...es/default.aspx . They also have a cruelty-free shopping companion, that you can receive for free if you so wish. http://www.peta.org/...ping-guide.aspx

Now, let's move over to the medical field. This is a harder one. On one side, you can argue that again we let animals suffer just so that humans can get the benefits afterwards. And that is true. But on the other hand: Is it worth it, if thousands of small animals die and suffer in tests, and scientists ends up finding a cure for cancer?  Severe autism? HIV/aids? Parkinsons? Or a way to give a sick or starved body all the nutrients it need in a very efficient way, imagine what that would do to remove world hunger. It can be argued that animal medical testing is something that must or should be done, but that focus should be on doing it as harmless as possible, making sure the animals don't suffer unnecessary, and a bigger focus on which things need to be tested on animals, which doesn't, and how to go about it.

If you ever come over anyone doing some kind of animal testing or experimenting that you suspect are doing unnecessary harm, the best thing to do is report it to your local authorities. In the US, you can contact PETA about it, and they will look into it, here's how: http://www.peta.org/...ls-in-Labs.aspx In other parts of the world, get in touch with your local animal rescue group or animal rights organization, they will know what to do:

Are you conscious when it comes to choosing cosmetics and household-products if they are from companies that do animal testing? How are your feelings on medical testing; do you feel that is ok or not? How can we improve the lives of test animals? Do you feel it's ethical that animal lives are lost, so that we can save human lives?

[Ryrin]

"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way it's animals are treated."   

 

Ghandi

 

I have a hard time with medical testing but am not against it per se.  I think there is a need for research but it should be done in the most humane way possible and only on the most critical health issues i.e. not for cosmetics.  Will we ever have cruelty free testing?

[Brandie]

Cosmetic testing doesn't seem very valid to me, especially in the world we live in today. It seems to me that we already know thousands of ingredients that are safe to use in cosmetics so let the companies just stick to a list of acceptable ingredients and leave the animals alone.

 

I do feel differently about animal testing to further medical advancement. I don't believe that an animal's life is comparable to a human's. I think that it is acceptable to sacrifice animal lives to help save human ones. However, the tests should be done in a responsible way and with the least possible suffering to the animal. An example of animal testing for "medical" purposes that I don't agree with is the Health/Tulane study of 1974. You can read about it here: http://www.truthaboutcannabis.org/?tag=brain-damage. This is an excellent example of irresponsible animal testing wich produced erroneous results. So my question would be, How do we as citizens, patients, and consumers get the medical field to regulate their medical testing and keep it to nessisary and intelligently executed tests that yield the most beneficial results for humans?

[WildTaltos]

animal testinng is tricky. medicine, i.e. extnding or preservin a life thruogh manipulativ means, has always been a large part of survivall, whethre licking a wound or somthing more complex like takinng a narcotic, and humans have taken it furthre by using animal or human or plant parts tht think will help cure or mend a certainn ailment for one reason or anothre. I practice traditinal medicines and so I use body partts of a variety of species to makke my medicines whch I othrewise wuoldnt have been able to use or which I wuoold have eaten anyways. Doing very methodic, empirical testinng is somthing that has only strted to be widely utilised within past few centuries and its been a meanns of improving medicine so its naturall enuogh to do. I thiink the mentality and conditions behnd it is waht bothres me the most. I do testing on othre species, whethre for a questin I want answred regarding a scientific fild that doesnt seem well-explined in literature or I want to see for myslf or else for testing spells or cursses, but while doin it I dont see the animal as inferiorr to my own kind (expct for a certain animal), and I try to cause it little pain as I can.

 

A numbre of modern reserchers, maybe even the majourity of them, dont do this - they keep the animalls in confined and unatural conditions, whichh cause them a lot of mental distresss, all for th view that they are justt dumb animalls and they dont want to or have the monney to spend on giving them facilities that resmble their natural environmnt to live comfortably in. And as just mentiond, there is the mentality that one animall is not worth a human life, which I violently disagree with - in my religons view, all life is just as important as the next, and while we prefer to protecct and preserve our own kind becuse they of cuorse carry some of our genes into future, that is th onlly basis for our preference of own livess over most othre species, not that we are somhow inherently worth more. And given that to us its a mattre of our blood alone, I then wuoldnt have any qualms abuot doing testingg or anythinng else on an entirely unrelated humanoid unles they were my friend; I woldnt have reservations othrewise becuse they dont provide anything for me, be it carryinng at lest some of my genetic identity such as a cousin would orr being a friend or ally I can have emotionall or physical support from. Basicaly then, its another issue of respct for me, like with the fur; if yuuo cant respect the animal enuogh to try to treat it as decently as posible, you shuoldnt do animal testing or, if left up to me, you wuoldnt be allowed to take advntage of modern medicine either.

 

Ther is then also the issue of testinng for advncement of medical knowldge and testing in advncment for frivilous product, such as cosmeticc or hygienic products. Yuo certinly dont need make-up and yuo dont really need soap or wahtever else (keeping cleann helps improve helth and it can be a preventative measure but it isnt necesary). Therefore, Im completly against animal testing for such thinngs. 

[Luciena]

I certainly do not advocate animal testing for the sake of a lipstick or a facial cream and whatever else they use it for.

 

However, if it came to someone I loved being saved by medicines procured by animal testing, I would not bat an eyelid. I am not saying that I would not feel bad about the animals themselves suffering, just that for me personally I would condone it if it meant saving the life of the one I love.

 

I hope I do not offend anyone by this, but the fear that you live with day in day out, of loosing that someone you absolutely would give your life for with out a second thought, excuses any kind of animal testing. 

 

This is my opinion. You might like it or it might be construed as a fallacy by some or pretense by others, or even plain unbelievable, but it is a measure of how much you love someone to offer your life in exchange for theirs. 

 

I really wish it was possible to do that.

[michellem]

  I've become conscious the last few years when it comes to cosmetics and household products. All my personal vanity products, I try to make sure are not tested on animals. I'm not in charge of buying stuff for cleaning the house i.e. though, and my husband do have a habit of buying what's conenvient, and not checking. The only thing I buy that is tested on animals, it borders between "vanity" and medicine; it's the moistuirizer I'm dependant on for my skin not to crack up and burn. I keep trying to find something to replace it with that's not animal tested, but no luck so far :(

 

But yes, I do also think that there is a huge difference between testing cosmetic products and medicines. I know that alot of the medisines I take for my psorasis, have been develped through animal testing. And if I hadn't had those, my life would have been just a mass of pain, and I would have been unable to care for myself in even the simplest ways. And I'm selfish enough to say that no,I don't feel guilty about that.

[Luciena]

I'ts not selfish Mish it's what you need to live a normal life. 

[Brandie]

I agree, it's not selfish. I would count that skin cream as medication in your case.

[WildTaltos]

i alwys feel some remorsee even if small, whenn I take anothre animal's life eithre for food or for some exploratorry or ritual purpose or I have to causee it pain for somethinng similar, becuse they are just unfortunaet victim of circumstance; th only time I wuoldnt feel remorse wuold be if it was a disgracedd animal and especialy if it was one trying to hurtt me or my familly, wuoldnt feel any guilt then in defnding myself and takingg its life.

[Luciena]

Introducing the new topic.

 

Animals in Entertainment:

 

 

First, I want to tell you the story of the elephant Baba. She's an indian elephant, traveling with Circus Merano in Europe. she's an indian elephant, born somewhere around 1970. The circus says she was a motherless elephant that someone rescued and then sold to the circus. The truth is probably that she was captured. This is done by people riding on a tame elephant in a herd, scattering them, and then lassoing in a baby, that is dragged back to their center. Then she's probably been through a "breakdown"-process, which essentially means she's gotten tortured until she has no fight or resistance again. She's broken. Then, she was probably sold to the circus, and they started training her, For this, they use something called an elephant hook. It's a cane with a sharp hook on the end, that they prod sensitive areas with to get the elephant to do what they want. This is why, in the ring, their trainer usually carries something; a decorative wand or cane, or maybe even a fake rose, to direct the elephant. This reminds the elephant of the hook it's been tortured with, and it goes through the motions it's supposed to do. Now, we don't know for sure that Baba has been captured and broken in these exact ways. But even if she hasn't, she's clearly suffering from her life in the circus. She shows atypical behavior; when she's in her pen, she rocks back and forth. According to elephant behavioral specialists, this behavior indicates psychosis, a broken psyche, and/or PTSD. Elephant are used to living in tight-knit family groups; they have deep feelings (they mourn when members of their herd die) and a very high intelligence, they are huge animals used to walking great distances. For one elephant to be put in a trailer, driven around a country or a continent, put in a small pen afterwards, have children come and sit on her, be forced around a circus ring amidst flashing lights and loud music, and then be loaded into the trailer again…

And it's not just elephants. Some circuses have lions, tigers, bears, hippos, sea lions… All animals that you cannot give anything resembling their normal lives in a circus. Even horses, who's been tamed by mankind for a few thousand years, cannot be properly kept in a traveling circus. Dogs and cats, maybe, as long as the trainers treat them alright. But especially the big, exotic animals have nothing to do in a circus. Considering how many circuses without animals are popping out (check out Cirque de Soleil, if you haven't heard of them), and how inadequate the animals lives are on the road, circuses with animals should become a thing of the past.

So how about zoo's? A zoo is better for an animal than any kind of traveling show. Most zoo's are very careful in giving their animals habitats that suit them, and make sure they have others of their kind around them. It's an important way of letting children see the animals of the world, and hopefully learn to care and appreciate about the wonderful animals on our earth. Also, in zoo's around the world, people are working hard to save endangered species; some species are extinct in the wild and zoo's are the only reason we still have some of them alive.

Do you think there's a difference between having animals in a circus vs a zoo? Have you ever seen signs of animals being unhappy in a circus? Do you think there are steps that can be taken to improve their lives? Have you ever been to an animal-free circus?