A Song of Fire & Ice Book Discussion Thread (Up To Dance With Dragons)

[Suttree]

OKAY, so is it appropriate to post a thread with huge spoilers in title?

 

No, they should have certainly had a neutral title and used spoiler tags in thread.

[False Dragon1991]

 

OKAY, so is it appropriate to post a thread with huge spoilers in title?

 

No, they should have certainly had a neutral title and used spoiler tags in thread.

 

 

Fair enough I'll edit it.

[Red2111]

which is why i've merged it into this thread which deals with previous info in the series and speculation for new info.  though Dance has been out well over a year, so the spoiler thing does not apply to this series any more.

 

 

also, a friendly note, lets keep the discussion on ASoF&I and not about bashing or voicing discontent on another fan site pls.  dont know which one you were on , nor do i care, but this thread and forum are not a platform for complaining about another site and how their mods handle ther business mkay.

 

/modhat

 

 

i woud have to agree though, thats not rape.  now had Jorah continued to push his advance on her phsyically after she said no or pushed him away, thats different.  and i also agree that in light of all the other instances of rape inthat series, to get up in arms about something like an unexpected advance and unrequented(sp) love, is a bit much imo.

[False Dragon1991]

One thing I don't get is how Westeros behaves completely differently towards Tywin Lannister and Stannis Baratheon. Both men are portrayed as ruthless and have committed atrocities. Tywin murders the Targ children and wipes out the Castameres. Stannis is "utterly without mercy". Both have fought in wars and should have won glory. Stannis held Storms End against the Tyrells. Tywin cowed the troublesome bannermen of the Westerlands. Both are shown as arrogant, abrasive and outright disrespectful towards their subordinates and those around them. On the TV show Tywin Lannister has quite literally insulted everyone in Kings Landing in every single scene he is either calling someone a fool or patronising them. He mocks his bannermen publicly for incompetence and rules purely by force n money without any respect or building bridges. However Stannis is ostracized whilst Tywin has such an incredible reputation that none dare defy him. His own bannermen in the stormlands refuse to aid him and his brother defies him. Tywins remain universally loyal during the whole conflict, even when he is losing and the Lannister cause appears hopeless. Part of the problem is that Stannis failure to get allies is because as Renly says "you never wanted friends brother. But a man without friends is a man without power.". But, neither does Tywin Lannister. The early Lannister power-base is entirely something built up by Tywin and his bannermen are just so intimidated they don't need to be won over. He is frankly just as much of a miserable and anti-social guy as Stannis but still has this immense reservoir of support and loyalty.I just don't get how everyone is willing to support Tywin and yet they react totally differently to Stannis. Surely some of the Westerland lords would be unwilling to support Tywin Lannister as Robb Stark defeats him, or because hes supporting Joffery who is a known psychopath, or because he is just evil and Renly has an army of 100,000 marching on the capitol.

 

Things which are held against Stannis and work against him simply do not exist in relation to Tywin Lannister.    

[Werthead]

Several things. First, Tywin was less of a martinet before his wife died. Her death apparently left him more isolated and harsher than before. It's not like he was Robert Baratheon or anything before, but he was at least somewhat more approachable. He also gave the Reynes and Tarbecks several chances to redeem themselves before destroying them; Stannis has no truck with warnings and would have simply wiped them out immediately.

 

Their difference in philosophy is down to what Tywin says: a man who has bent his knee must be helped back up otherwise he will grow resentful and rebel, or his children will. Only the unrepentent must be destroyed. Stannis wants to destroy anyone who ever wronged him regardless, though he does moderate that as the books continue.

 

Another one is that Tywin has a lot more power than Stannis as the head of a much more powerful family (even when Stannis attacks King's Landing with the stormland army he inherits from Renly, his army is only about half the size of the full military force of House Lannister). Tywin is much more respected as a battlefield commander: Stannis is a good naval commander (for his victory at Fair Isle during the Greyjoy Rebellion) and a good siege commander, but he has never won (or lost) a substantial field engagement, at least not until the Battle of the Wall. Tywin also gave the Seven Kingdoms twenty years of peace and prosperity as Hand before resigning; during this time he was regarded as a generally fair and accomplished statesman.

 

Some of this is true for the TV show as well, but they have in general played up his arrogance at the expense of his diplomatic skills.

[Agitel]

Tywin is also a good politician and strategist. He builds alliances whether through political promotions or other types of bribes (money, marriages) or through fear. Stannis doesn't play politics, isn't interested in what those around him want (they are supposed to do their duty, the fact that they might want extra favors for services is alien to him). Stannis doesn't understand people. Tywin does. Think of all the perks Tywin gives to the Tyrells after they join him: a marriage to the king, a son in the Kingsguard, a number of promotions to the small council, etc... He makes Walder Frey Lord Protector of the Riverlands and gives the Freys (and Tywin's sister) Riverrun. He makes Roose Bolton Lord Protector and Warden of the North and "Arya Stark." It seems fairly obvious, but Stannis might not even consider this stuff, and even if he did he would probably fail in the negotiations because he doesn't deal with people well.

 

Tywin was also  Hand of the King under Aerys and is largely believed to have been the true ruler of the Seven Kingdoms as Aerys became madder. That's plenty of times to build connections and respect among many of the great houses.

[False Dragon1991]

True but Robert was King for a similar amount f time and Stannis was a member of his council for just as long. So he would have had similar experience to Tywin. .

 

Plus, he has suggested things not that different from Tywins dealing with the Tyrells. He wanted Jon to be a Lord in the North to get the north on side because he knew they would follow Eddards son. This is also patronage and ties John to him. He also accepts that he might let one of his men marry this woman and acquire all of her lands if he performs this very important service to him. So Stannis understands patronage and rewarding his allies just the same as Tywin. The only difference to me is that Tywin buys his support and gets away with it despite supposedly having a worse reputation than Stannis. Also, you can't just always buy your friends and allies. There has to be some measure of personal trust and relationships established.  This is especially important because Stannis often has it held against him that he is abrasive, cold and didn't want friends; contrasted to charismatic and social Renly. Tywin, as I remarked from his scenes on the show, he insults every single person he meets. Surely that would make him unsuited for court life in of itself where relationships and alliances are very much personal affairs where charisma is essential. There just seems to be a double standard at work. 

 

Oh I really liked this article explaining why Jorah isn't a "nice guy". I especially liked the bit where he says that your typical nice guy does girly things to ingratiate themselves and whines about girls liking big brutish thugs; when Jorah is a big brutish thug. Although personally I think hes more like Danys Darth Vadar. It also stresses their friendship which I think a lot of people forget since they tend to focus on him being in love with Dany as his sole motivation from the beginning of the series for everything hes done. 

 

http://drogontheburninator.tumblr.com/post/40293824435/why-jorah-mormont-is-not-a-nice-guy

 

BTW,  I really think Varys and Littlefinger are just ridiculous. The things they get away with in this series and fact that they haven't made a single slip-up or mistake is kind of silly. Its just Martin getting these two uber clever guys who are so clever that they run rings around everyone and are gonna get huge armies at the end. Considering most of this is off-screen and just renders other characters struggles to achieve this a little mute. ie Littlefinger being Lord of the Vale at the end of ASOS with its army. Worse, he gets away with murdering Lisa Arryn by convincing an innocent man to testify against himself... Then we have Varys, who obviously has a trap door right up to Tywins quarters so that he can let Tyrion murder the most powerful man in the Kingdom instantly (coz seriously, he would know what was going through dwarfs head and suggested where the tunnel led in the first place). Suffice to say the level of stupidity regarding those two characters goes ridiculous in ADWD. I don't see what point Martin wants to make other than "OMG plotters are so awesome, nobody can touch these 2 clever men mwhahaha". Well, no, they should not be getting away with these things and the amount of plot armor they have is insane. How has nobody ratted out the fact that Littlefinger was borrowing huge sums from Braavos the crown could neverpay back and wasn't a genius accountant? Surely other people handle documents and one of them could rat him out; even by accident? Its just silly and I fear Martin is going to continue down this road going forward with those two. They have not slipped up once between them. Even Tywin Lannister lost a few battles and was at serious risk of losing. Those two, never.   

[Mr Ares]

True but Robert was King for a similar amount f time and Stannis was a member of his council for just as long. So he would have had similar experience to Tywin. .

But their respective duties on the Small Council are quite different - Stannis was the Master of Ships, so his duties revolve around boats. Tywin was the Hand, so his duties involve things like deputising for the King when the King is unavailable or busy. And he did so under the Mad King, so under a guy who was frequently unavailable. One runs the fleet, the other runs the country.

 

Plus, he has suggested things not that different from Tywins dealing with the Tyrells. He wanted Jon to be a Lord in the North to get the north on side because he knew they would follow Eddards son. This is also patronage and ties John to him. He also accepts that he might let one of his men marry this woman and acquire all of her lands if he performs this very important service to him. So Stannis understands patronage and rewarding his allies just the same as Tywin. The only difference to me is that Tywin buys his support and gets away with it despite supposedly having a worse reputation than Stannis. Also, you can't just always buy your friends and allies. There has to be some measure of personal trust and relationships established.  This is especially important because Stannis often has it held against him that he is abrasive, cold and didn't want friends; contrasted to charismatic and social Renly. Tywin, as I remarked from his scenes on the show, he insults every single person he meets. Surely that would make him unsuited for court life in of itself where relationships and alliances are very much personal affairs where charisma is essential. There just seems to be a double standard at work.

Tywin may insult people, but he is far more pragmatic, and is head of the richest house in the kingdom, and has built a formidable reputation. Stannis is a far more inflexible man than Tywin. They both understand patronage, but Stannis is less likely to reward former enemies. Consider his treatment of Davos - the good and the bad that he did didn't cancel each other out, so he was knighted and had his fingers shortened. In the same position, I can see Tywin knighting a former smuggler as a reward for his services, but not seeing the need to punish him as well.

[False Dragon1991]

I just wanted to talk about the scene in Clash of Kings from a re-read where Jorah gives Dany the peach in the city of bones. Now, this is described as "small" and "over-ripe": however when Dany tastes it its so sweet it "almost makes her cry". Anyway I think there is actually a lot of symbolism and maybe a bit of foreshadowing. 

The other time a peach comes up in Clash of Kings is the prominent scene between Renly and Stannis. He takes it out and bites it in front of Stannis. He says this represents the richs, wealth and power of the Reach. So there is a clear correlation between land/power and the fruit. Given that in the scene with Dany Jorah goes on to talk about Bear Island as a poor impoverished place and why his first wife left him over money this implies that the peach is a metaphor for Jorahs social status as its a small peach. Obviously relative to Daenerys who is Queen he is far below her in station and this is a topic which comes up as he discusses his wife Lynesse. In addition, the word "over-ripe", suggests something left for too long and this could refer to Jorah being older than Daenerys. If we then take the peach to be Jorah himself then the fact that Dany is thinking initially of appearances could be referring to her thinking that she can't imagine enjoying having sex with Jorah at all. Indeed in that chapter she does exactly this in pretty blunt terms!  So I think that it suggests that Dany would actually enjoy having sex with Jorah and is letting appearances and issues of status get in the way just as she did with thinking she wouldn't enjoy eating a small over-ripe peach. It is meant to say that she is actually mistaken in her assumption she wouldn't enjoy it. 

Do you think there is a bit of symbolism and foreshadowing going on here?

[Red2111]

given Jorahs betrayal of Danny and her reaction to said betrayal, I can't see her ever having sex with him.

 

 

also, she looked at him like an older brother/father, so I think you're reaching a bit there.

[Durinax]

given Jorahs betrayal of Danny and her reaction to said betrayal, I can't see her ever having sex with him.

 

 

also, she looked at him like an older brother/father, so I think you're reaching a bit there.

depends how she reacts to him bringing her the halfman

[Plato]

How can Tywin be a cool political strategist, when early in the books he acted very brash and foolish.  Tywin invaded the Riverlands because Catelyn and her sister kidnapped Tyrion.  If Robert didn't just happen to die, and Ned didn't just happen to take no allies when securing the throne (thus allowing Cersei/Joff to take it) Tywin would have been left with no allies at all.  Especially when, if Robert/Ned had lived, Tywin would be directly defying the crown.  A lot of coincidences and luck helped Tywin early on.

 

EDIT: And we know they are coincidences, because Cersei murders Robert because of what Ned knew, then she gets rid of Ned.  Tywin invaded the Riverlands simultaneously without knowing any of this.  He would have been totally screwed if it weren't for Cersei being a selfish b****.

[Mr Ares]

How can Tywin be a cool political strategist, when early in the books he acted very brash and foolish.  Tywin invaded the Riverlands because Catelyn and her sister kidnapped Tyrion.  If Robert didn't just happen to die, and Ned didn't just happen to take no allies when securing the throne (thus allowing Cersei/Joff to take it) Tywin would have been left with no allies at all.  Especially when, if Robert/Ned had lived, Tywin would be directly defying the crown.  A lot of coincidences and luck helped Tywin early on.

If there's one thing Tywin can't stand, it's people not giving his House the respect it is due - kidnapping his son and accusing him of murder was an act he couldn't just ignore. That doesn't preclude him being a cool political strategist in other matters, though. Also, consider the way he wages war - he doesn't declare war against the king, he sends Gregor out first (deniability), destroys the enemy forces at Golden Tooth, leaving the way into the Riverlands clear. Robert has precious little reason to go to war with Tywin Lannister - plus he needs the Lannister gold, and the Lannisters have a lot of presence in King's Landing.

[Werthead]

Yes, Tywin knows Robert will appease him rather than fight him, as Robert does in KL when he orders Ned to have Cat release Tyrion and make his peace with Jaime. That is up to a point though. Tywin never got to the point of pushing Robert hard enough for Robert to take up arms against him. If the whole realm had answered Robert's call, Tywin would have no choice but to back down, so Tywin would likely have not let it get so far.

 

It's a dangerous gamble, but also a measured one. Tywin's not above making those, like when he sent Barristan Selmy into Duskendale to rescue Aerys II single-handed. He'll roll the dice when it's necessary, even if he prefers things to be a bit more certain.