A Song of Fire & Ice Book Discussion Thread (Up To Dance With Dragons)

[Red2111]

also, theres a good chance that the Spider might know something. after all, he is a collector of secrets; so i wouldn't be surprised at all if GRRM uses his character to get that info out in the open.

 

also, alot of people seem to think Reaghar isn't dead; if that is so, then he would likely know as well. and if both blood lines are strong in Jon, then when Danny crosses the sea, the Dragons themselves might tell her by picking him to be a rider.

[Arc]

two strong new candidates for those scaly saddles emerge as a powerful enemy threatens Daenerys's captured city of Meereen.

 

i'm guessing these are the wo new POV's Martin is introducing? or do you guys think it will be old characters comming back??

 

IIRC, the Crow's Eye had just heard about dragons being seen across the Narrow Sea and planning a trip to seize them, along with Aeron Damphair. If that's accurate, then it could be them who come to wage war on Dany and threaten the city.

 

If I recall it's Victarion who is actually going to slavers bay, not the other two. And I'm of a mind he'll end up not as an enemy, but as Dany's ride home. My bet is the Butcher-ruler of Astapor going rogue on Dany, or some Dothraki.

 

More characters are revived than killed off.

 

It's maybe not for this volume, but I'm quite fond of the theory that Sandor will come to Brienne's rescue as she's dangling from a tree. Davos is another good shot.

 

Martin drops little hints around long-debated questions such as Jon's parentage

 

Still not convinced of the popular R&L parentage. The fact remains that Jon LOOKS like Eddard, even more so then his other sons.

[Red2111]

looks don't mean much though. theres some kids who bare stronger resemblances to their uncles or aunts rather than their parents.

 

also, i think it was mentioned that Ed's sister and himself favored eachother greatly in the looks department.

 

 

and Jon's not the only one who strongly resembles Ed out of the Stark Children. Arya rresembles him greatly too. in GoT's when they are talking together it's mentioned that its the reason Jon and her have such a strong bond.

[Darth Krewl]

looks don't mean much though. theres some kids who bare stronger resemblances to their uncles or aunts rather than their parents.

 

While this certainly is true IRL, in ASoIaF it was precisely the strong Baratheon seed (according to Jon Arryn's final words) that led both Jon and Ned to the conclusion that Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella were not Robert's children.

 

The Baratheons have black hair and eyes. The Starks have dark brown hair and eyes. The Tullys have auburn hair and blue eyes and the Lannisters are all blond-haired with green eyes (except for the Imp, who has mismatching eyes, of course).

 

Hence, I'd dare say that in GRRM's world, looks do mean quite a lot.

[Darth Krewl]

IIRC, the Crow's Eye had just heard about dragons being seen across the Narrow Sea and planning a trip to seize them, along with Aeron Damphair. If that's accurate, then it could be them who come to wage war on Dany and threaten the city.

 

If I recall it's Victarion who is actually going to slavers bay, not the other two. And I'm of a mind he'll end up not as an enemy, but as Dany's ride home. My bet is the Butcher-ruler of Astapor going rogue on Dany, or some Dothraki.

 

Well, apparently I didn't remember correctly. Don't have AFFC with me right now and I don't remember if it was the Crow's Eye, Damphair or Victarion who was planning this. But personally, I don't see any of the Greyjoys becoming allies with the last of the Targaryens, when they are planning for the independence of the Iron Islands, not for the reunification of the Seven Kingdoms under one single ruler.

 

As for Dany needing a ride home, I think she has enough wealth and leverage to get all the ships she may need to get her armies of Dothraki and Unsullied across the Narrow Sea. But I do agree that the imminent threat she's about to face may come from one of her supposed allies and close collaborators, though.

[Red2111]

i disagree about the Greyjoys not being Danny's alley. i could easily see Asha alleying herself with Danny with the promise oof the Iron Islands freedom and the help of deposing her Nuncle. Danny might well accept those terms for the time being to get alleys in her pocket with the intention of dealing with them later. afterall, with her army of unfeeling, unthinking zombie like dudes plus 3 full grown dragons ..... she could easily quell any uprisings once the throne is secure.

 

 

the only problem is, that security only lasts as long as those Dragons live, and since their all Male theres no chance for breeding unless Danny can find more eggs and hatch them via Dragons breath.

 

 

 

Darth - see thats just it. it depends on whose line is stronger in the breeding. with Roberts children we know the "Blood is strong" because all his children looked like him. with Ned & Cat, it appears the Tully line is stronger becase 4 out of the 5 Stark Children resemble the Tully line. (also, wasn't it said that Robb resembled one of Cat's uncles .... ) with Danny's line, they are inbred from generations of sister/brother breeding; while the Stark line is much more pure. If Neds sister resemebled her brother, and the Stark blood was stronger than the Targ blood; then it's easy to see why Jon would resemble Ned without his mother directly there to be compared too.

 

 

 

another person who might know the truth about Jons parents is Benjen (ie the white walker guy with Bran) in the series on HBO i noticed that Benjen also promised Jon they would talk about Jon's parents when he got back from that scouting mission. we know that we'll get he answer to who that guy is via the POV's from Bran, and chances are Bran will make his way back to the wall to be with Jon after visiting the skin changer.

 

with that hint, and that Benjen was a Stark and Ned would most likely trust him not to spill the secret and Benjen would know which Start Jon truely did resemble, you see how this could be another option. plus there is the supposed woman whose still alive that is supposed to be his Mother. if Jon is run off the Wall via attack, he may very well search her out and find out the truth.

 

 

also, Nan might know as well; as i think she was the Nurse maid who came back to Winterfell with Ned and was caring for Jon while he was a baby.

 

 

 

so theres plenty of people, aside form Ned & Lyanna, who have the possability of knowing such a devistating secret. Devistating because it leaves a viable & strong contender for "King of the North" through Jon as a legitament heir.

 

 

[Arc]

1+ Red. Thx for elaborating on the lineage issue, you captured exactly what I ment with my short comment earlier and spared me some typing :).

[Red2111]

np Arc, glad to help

 

 

[Erunion]

Nice post Red, 'specially on the bloodline thing.

One mistake though, the three Dragon's are not male, as, according to Maester Aemon, Dragon's are neither male nor female (hence the original belief that the Prince that was Promised would be a guy, but the fact remaining that Azor Ahai Reborn could actually be female).

So there is a possibility that the Dragons will be able to breed, as they aren't all guys. Technically speaking, none of them are guys (despite their masculine names).

[Darth Krewl]

i disagree about the Greyjoys not being Danny's alley. i could easily see Asha alleying herself with Danny with the promise oof the Iron Islands freedom and the help of deposing her Nuncle. Danny might well accept those terms for the time being to get alleys in her pocket with the intention of dealing with them later. afterall, with her army of unfeeling, unthinking zombie like dudes plus 3 full grown dragons ..... she could easily quell any uprisings once the throne is secure.

 

Well, IMO the Greyjoys are some of the proudest, most fiercely independent nobles in all of Westeros. I believe what we've seen from all of them (from Balon to his brothers to Asha to Theon) proves just how ruthless and relentless these people are in pursuing their own ends and not willing to bow to anyone.

 

Keep in mind the only thing that kept Balon in line for a decade was that his only surviving son (and alleged heir) was kept as Ned's "ward" in Winterfell. Soon as Theon came back to Pyke, what did Balon do? Send him right back to seize Winterfell, under his sister's command.

 

In addition, no offense, but you seem to have the wrong story here, as Daenerys Targaryen is certainly no manipulative, persuasive, insidious Aes Sedai or Sea Folk Mistress of Ships

 

I just don't see a woman of Dany's personality resorting to such trickery only to get the Iron Throne. She won't do it and she doesn't need to do it. Besides, to forge an alliance, you need to gain something valuable in return and there's no way I can see the last of the Targaryens conceding to free one of the Seven Kingdoms she considers her own, in exchange for a few boats and a ride home...in case Asha can offer her that much, that is. The Crow's Eye or Victarion? Perhaps, but not Asha. She doesn't have that much power.

 

So, guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

Darth - see thats just it. it depends on whose line is stronger in the breeding. with Roberts children we know the "Blood is strong" because all his children looked like him. with Ned & Cat, it appears the Tully line is stronger becase 4 out of the 5 Stark Children resemble the Tully line. (also, wasn't it said that Robb resembled one of Cat's uncles .... ) with Danny's line, they are inbred from generations of sister/brother breeding; while the Stark line is much more pure. If Neds sister resemebled her brother, and the Stark blood was stronger than the Targ blood; then it's easy to see why Jon would resemble Ned without his mother directly there to be compared too.

 

Could be, yep. Still, genetics has always played a key role in fantasy (see Rand and how he always suspected he wasn't an Emond's Fielder because of his size, hair and eye color, etc., for instance. How believable is that the entire population of one single place -not just a family - would all be short, with dark hair and eyes, so that the Dragon Reborn stuck out like a sore thumb?).

 

In this case, it was Lyanna and Benjen both, who resembled Ned. Hence the reason an actor who looked like Sean Bean was picked to portray Ben Stark in the HBO TV show. In which case, Jon's likeness to Ned could also be due to his mother. Not prescribing to the L+R=Jon theory here, just saying I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.

 

another person who might know the truth about Jons parents is Benjen (ie the white walker guy with Bran) in the series on HBO i noticed that Benjen also promised Jon they would talk about Jon's parents when he got back from that scouting mission. we know that we'll get he answer to who that guy is via the POV's from Bran, and chances are Bran will make his way back to the wall to be with Jon after visiting the skin changer.

 

with that hint, and that Benjen was a Stark and Ned would most likely trust him not to spill the secret and Benjen would know which Start Jon truely did resemble, you see how this could be another option. plus there is the supposed woman whose still alive that is supposed to be his Mother. if Jon is run off the Wall via attack, he may very well search her out and find out the truth.

 

While I don't consider the TV show as official "cannon", I admit that you have a very valid point here. Besides, Ben Stark could easily be one of those characters believed to be dead who will be back in ADwD or in the next book. His death was never confirmed, he's just gone missing, so I can see this happening, sure thing.

 

also, Nan might know as well; as i think she was the Nurse maid who came back to Winterfell with Ned and was caring for Jon while he was a baby.

 

Isn't Old Nan gone (killed by Theon or Bolton's bastard, one or the other, after Winterfell was seized)? Not too sure about this, but I believe that most - if not all - of Ned's old servants at Winterfell have already been killed, Old Nan included.

 

so theres plenty of people, aside form Ned & Lyanna, who have the possability of knowing such a devistating secret. Devistating because it leaves a viable & strong contender for "King of the North" through Jon as a legitament heir.

 

Right on the first count. Wrong on the second. Sorry, but no. Jon's not a legitimate heir. He's a bastard and bastards are like smallfolk, they can aspire to knighthood but not lordship, lest it is bestowed upon them by the king ( a la Davos Seaworth or Janos Slynt).

 

Jon was offered to be legitimized by Stannis, which would've made him Ned's official heir and Lord of Winterfell (only if/when Stannis were recognized as a legitimate ruler, which by rights he should, but that's another story), alas he turned him down, so he can't aspire to being "King in the North" unless he wins it by force or popular demand, which I can easily see happening sometime in the future, given the character's fast rise to power and current arc.

[Red2111]

So, guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

yes we are, as i can see Danny being hard and manipulative like that; considering her actions in the last book with the take over of the 4 citys and how she manipulated the slavers and such.

 

 

While I don't consider the TV show as official "cannon", I admit that you have a very valid point here. Besides, Ben Stark could easily be one of those characters believed to be dead who will be back in ADwD or in the next book. His death was never confirmed, he's just gone missing, so I can see this happening, sure thing.

 

i'm not taking the TV show as Cannon either, but it can be used to point out stuff considering how true to cannon they are being. given that GRRM has been heavily involved int he making of this show, and he's specifically hinted at clearing up some of the rumors about Jons parents, i wouldn't be surprised if he had them insert or include teaser hints to the answer.

 

 

Isn't Old Nan gone (killed by Theon or Bolton's bastard, one or the other, after Winterfell was seized)? Not too sure about this, but I believe that most - if not all - of Ned's old servants at Winterfell have already been killed, Old Nan included.

 

i thought she survived ... along with Bran, Rickon and others when Winterfell was sacked by hiding in the crypt. someone can probably recall better, but i dont rememebr Bran remarking on her laying among the dead and i think she was one of those whoe ushered them to leave Winterfell as well.

 

 

Right on the first count. Wrong on the second. Sorry, but no. Jon's not a legitimate heir. He's a bastard and bastards are like smallfolk, they can aspire to knighthood but not lordship, lest it is bestowed upon them by the king ( a la Davos Seaworth or Janos Slynt).

 

i disagree. Jon is only considered a Bastard because ned supposedly had him out of wed lock. if Jon is Lyanna's child, she wasn't married so there for is he really considered a Bastard? i wouldn't think so, and yes this woudl give him a legitament claim on the title for Winterfell if the rest of the Stark Children either died or declined the title.

[balefired-ed2]

So, guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

yes we are, as i can see Danny being hard and manipulative like that; considering her actions in the last book with the take over of the 4 citys and how she manipulated the slavers and such.

 

 

While I don't consider the TV show as official "cannon", I admit that you have a very valid point here. Besides, Ben Stark could easily be one of those characters believed to be dead who will be back in ADwD or in the next book. His death was never confirmed, he's just gone missing, so I can see this happening, sure thing.

 

i'm not taking the TV show as Cannon either, but it can be used to point out stuff considering how true to cannon they are being. given that GRRM has been heavily involved int he making of this show, and he's specifically hinted at clearing up some of the rumors about Jons parents, i wouldn't be surprised if he had them insert or include teaser hints to the answer.

 

 

Isn't Old Nan gone (killed by Theon or Bolton's bastard, one or the other, after Winterfell was seized)? Not too sure about this, but I believe that most - if not all - of Ned's old servants at Winterfell have already been killed, Old Nan included.

 

i thought she survived ... along with Bran, Rickon and others when Winterfell was sacked by hiding in the crypt. someone can probably recall better, but i dont rememebr Bran remarking on her laying among the dead and i think she was one of those whoe ushered them to leave Winterfell as well.

 

 

Right on the first count. Wrong on the second. Sorry, but no. Jon's not a legitimate heir. He's a bastard and bastards are like smallfolk, they can aspire to knighthood but not lordship, lest it is bestowed upon them by the king ( a la Davos Seaworth or Janos Slynt).

 

i disagree. Jon is only considered a Bastard because ned supposedly had him out of wed lock. if Jon is Lyanna's child, she wasn't married so there for is he really considered a Bastard? i wouldn't think so, and yes this woudl give him a legitament claim on the title for Winterfell if the rest of the Stark Children either died or declined the title.

 

I have a contention with the part in bold. If R+L=J, a theory that I suscribe to, Jon still does not have a more legitimate claim to the North than that of Bran, Rickon, and then Arya, with Sansa already being disinherited. What Jon does have, if R+L were married, is by birth the most legitimate claim to the Iron Throne, as it would put him ahead of Dany in the succession much the same that Bran,Rickon, and Arya are ahead of him to claim Winterfell.

 

All told, I would rather he kept his vows and does not end up becoming King.

[shinerfan]

If Ned's marriage to Catelyn would make Jon a bastard, why wouldn't Rhaegar's marriage to Elia of Dorne?

[Elend]

On Jon's bastardy-

 

He's a bastard. Rhaegar died on the Trident prior to the sack of King's Landing. The sack of King's Landing is when Elia died. The Faith does not just allow wives to be put aside after the bedding. Certainly not when the wife has children.

 

A bastard is still a bastard even if both parents are nobility, even very high ranking nobility. Even if neither partner is married at the time (though Rhaegar would have been). See Catelyn's musings on Jon's mother perhaps being Ashara Dayne. See Edric Storm, Robert's bastard at Storm's End.

 

So yeah. He's nowhere in the line of succession unless the North becomes independent again and recognizes the possible legitimization of Jon by Robb.

[Darth Krewl]

i can see Danny being hard and manipulative like that; considering her actions in the last book with the take over of the 4 citys and how she manipulated the slavers and such.

 

Does this mean you see Daenerys Targaryen on the same level of a Siuan, an Elaida or an Egwene?

 

Sorry, but not by a long shot!

 

Dany Targaryen cannot stand slavery and all the injustice being done to the slaves in those four cities. She didn't manipulate anyone (except for that slaver, whom she got her scribe from and she did that only to free the girl in a similar way to what she did to have Mirri Maz Durr - the maegi - and the violated girl freed in AGoT). She demanded that they freed the slaves or else...and well, they chose "else". Not too manipulative but quite direct, I'd say.

 

i'm not taking the TV show as Cannon either, but it can be used to point out stuff considering how true to cannon they are being. given that GRRM has been heavily involved int he making of this show, and he's specifically hinted at clearing up some of the rumors about Jons parents, i wouldn't be surprised if he had them insert or include teaser hints to the answer.

 

Oh yeah, again I agree on this.

 

i thought she survived ... along with Bran, Rickon and others when Winterfell was sacked by hiding in the crypt. someone can probably recall better, but i dont rememebr Bran remarking on her laying among the dead and i think she was one of those whoe ushered them to leave Winterfell as well.

 

Nope. Old Nan was not hiding in the crypts. That was Bran, Rickon, Hodor, Osha, Meera and Jojen Reed. It was the Reeds and Osha who led them out of Winterfell. Osha took off with Rickon (to look for Catelyn at Riverrun, IIRC), while Bran and the rest are on their way to the Wall to seek out Jon's help. She may or may not be dead, but she was certainly not in the crypts. This I do remember well.

 

i disagree. Jon is only considered a Bastard because ned supposedly had him out of wed lock. if Jon is Lyanna's child, she wasn't married so there for is he really considered a Bastard? i wouldn't think so, and yes this woudl give him a legitament claim on the title for Winterfell if the rest of the Stark Children either died or declined the title.

 

Well, this has been answered already, but I'll still comment on it.

 

With all due respect, it's not about personal opinion/interpretation. These are the rules GRRM made up for his universe (many of them based on real life, medieval laws concerning bastard children).

 

In this case, I must insist: any child born out of wedlock in the Seven Kingdoms is a bastard, regardless on whether he/she were recognized by their parents (a la Jon Snow or Edric Storm, Robert's bastard and Renly and Stannis's ward respectively), hence the surnames Snow, Stone, Rivers, etc. to differentiate them from trueborn children.

 

So again, no bastard could ever aspire to the seat of their house (or throne) and that's why Jon could never be legitimate heir to Winterfell, much less King in the North. This is regardless of his true origins, because he is a bastard all the same. It's Brandon who is next in line and current Lord of Winterfell/King in the North since Robb fell.

[Darth Krewl]

I have a contention with the part in bold. If R+L=J, a theory that I suscribe to, Jon still does not have a more legitimate claim to the North than that of Bran, Rickon, and then Arya, with Sansa already being disinherited. What Jon does have, if R+L were married, is by birth the most legitimate claim to the Iron Throne, as it would put him ahead of Dany in the succession much the same that Bran,Rickon, and Arya are ahead of him to claim Winterfell.

 

All told, I would rather he kept his vows and does not end up becoming King.

 

This. My feelings exactly, including my wishes for Jon's destiny.

[Mr Ares]

Isn't Old Nan gone (killed by Theon or Bolton's bastard, one or the other, after Winterfell was seized)? Not too sure about this, but I believe that most - if not all - of Ned's old servants at Winterfell have already been killed, Old Nan included.

i thought she survived ... along with Bran, Rickon and others when Winterfell was sacked by hiding in the crypt. someone can probably recall better, but i dont rememebr Bran remarking on her laying among the dead and i think she was one of those whoe ushered them to leave Winterfell as well.

You're both wrong - Old Nan was one of the people taken prisoner by Ramsey. She's at the Dreadfort.

 

Right on the first count. Wrong on the second. Sorry, but no. Jon's not a legitimate heir. He's a bastard and bastards are like smallfolk, they can aspire to knighthood but not lordship, lest it is bestowed upon them by the king ( a la Davos Seaworth or Janos Slynt).

 

i disagree. Jon is only considered a Bastard because ned supposedly had him out of wed lock. if Jon is Lyanna's child, she wasn't married so there for is he really considered a Bastard? i wouldn't think so, and yes this woudl give him a legitament claim on the title for Winterfell if the rest of the Stark Children either died or declined the title.

If Lyanna wasn't married, then she had Jon out of wedlock. If being Ned's child out of wedlock makes him a bastard, why would you think him being Lyanna's out of wedlock would make him something other than a bastard? Of course, the Targaryens could have multiple wives in the past (see Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel), and we don't know if the law was ever changed on that point - there does exist the possibility of Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's trueborn son, and thus his claim on Winterfell would be behind that of Bran and Rickon (and Sansa and Arya), but his claim on the Iron Throne would take precedence over Dany's. A moot point, of course, as he gave up any claims he might have had when he joined the Night's Watch.

[Red2111]

i think most of my misconception about Bastards in this series is that i had only concered the child to be one if one or both parents were married to someone other than eachother. i didn't rememebr it being mentioned that Rheagar was married either.

 

to explain more, if a child was born between The Hound & Sansa (two unwedd people) then woudl this child still be considered a bastard. or is it nly if one or both parents are married to another person (ie: jons case)

 

i had been under the assumption that the first example (a child to born to two unmarried people) was given a different status or treatment than one born in Jon's case.

 

 

 

Darth - we had agreed to disagree on our difference of opinion on Danny's strength as a character to be deceptive and go back on promises made to further her cause. as it stands, yes i can see her as an Egwene type character that will make promises with the intention to break them for the greater good while at the same time feeling bad about doing so in some cases.

 

we disagree about her character, which will only turn into a circle convo and get no where other than opposing sides. your not goign to convince me to see otherwise, and i'm not goign to convince you; hence the agree to disagree and move on

[Kadere]

A bastard is defined as a child born out of wedlock. So if Sandor and Sansa had a baby, without getting married, that child is a bastard. If Sandor and Sansa had a child and THEN got married, that child would be a bastard. Only if Sandor and Sansa got married and THEN had a baby would the child NOT be a bastard.

 

Rhaegar was married at the time he impregnated Lyanna, but that wouldn't even matter because he wasn't married to Lyanna, so Jon would have still been a bastard. Lyanna wasn't married to anyone, so Jon would still be a bastard. Only if Rhaegar and Lyanna got married would Jon NOT be a bastard.

 

Now it's possibly for the father to recognize his bastard as a true heir, I believe, like Roose legitimizes Ramsay so Ramsay inherits the Dreadfort should Roose die.

 

So Jon could never inherit Winterfell, because he's a bastard of Lyanna and Rhaegar, even if Lyanna was alive he'd still be a bastard unless Rhaegar legitimized him, in which case he'd be an heir to the Iron Throne.

[Elend]

Rhaegar was married to Elia of Dorne. And in Westeros a father cannot legitimize an heir. Only a king can do that, as I understand it. Which is why whether Jon is legitimate or not in the future pretty much hinges on whether the North becomes independent and Robb acknowledged a King. If so he may have done so regarding Jon as he did not know he had an heir. He had a conversation about this with his mother.

[Darth Krewl]

i think most of my misconception about Bastards in this series is that i had only concered the child to be one if one or both parents were married to someone other than eachother. i didn't rememebr it being mentioned that Rheagar was married either.

 

to explain more, if a child was born between The Hound & Sansa (two unwedd people) then woudl this child still be considered a bastard. or is it nly if one or both parents are married to another person (ie: jons case)

 

i had been under the assumption that the first example (a child to born to two unmarried people) was given a different status or treatment than one born in Jon's case.

 

Based on our modern society where "common partnerships" hold legal weight just as marriage does and children born out of wedlock can still be recognized by their parents, bear their name and have the same rights as all, this is an understandable assumption.

 

Alas, in medieval times (and up to times as recent as the late 20th. century in some very conservative, mostly Catholic countries) any child born out of wedlock was considered a bastard, even when born to unmarried/single parents or when recognized and raised by their fathers (the way Ned raised Jon, precisely). So, nope, all bastards are the same, even when begotten by single/unmarried people.

 

 

Darth - we had agreed to disagree on our difference of opinion on Danny's strength as a character to be deceptive and go back on promises made to further her cause. as it stands, yes i can see her as an Egwene type character that will make promises with the intention to break them for the greater good while at the same time feeling bad about doing so in some cases.

 

we disagree about her character, which will only turn into a circle convo and get no where other than opposing sides. your not goign to convince me to see otherwise, and i'm not goign to convince you; hence the agree to disagree and move on

 

Well, I'll be totally honest w/you, Red. If I ever met girls like these 2, I'd love to have Dany warm my bed every night for the rest of my life, while I wouldn't give as much as the time of day to Egwene. So, needless to say, I'm extremely biased here haha!

 

But personal preferences for these 2 characters aside, I could name countless reasons why Dany Targaryen and Egwene al'Vere are completely different...

 

Dany goes around saying stuff along the lines of, "perhaps it is my youth and inexperience speaking, but...". She accepts her shortcomings and that she's not as experienced and worldly as people such as Barristan the Bold or Jorah Mormont, for instance. It works wonderful for her.

 

Egwene, on the other hand, goes out of her way to force her "YOU'LL DO AS I SAY BECAUSE I AM THE AMYRLIN SEAT!" down people's throats and would NEVER admit that Rand al'Thor stands head and shoulders above her physically and figuratively, both. This hinders the girl much more than it's helped her.

 

Dany will not make the mistake of keeping around ANYONE who could pose a threat to her (see Jorah Mormont, despite the attraction and affection she felt for him). She knows that someone who wished you ill or did you harm once, can easily do it again. She also set an example for all those who felt like betraying her, by banishing one of her closest, most trusted advisers and protectors.

 

Egwene was way too lenient with all of the Aes Sedai who had mistreated and abused her while in captivity. They are NOT her people. They were Elaida's and deserved banishment or execution, IMO. One could argue that Egwene needs all the help she can get, what with Tarmon Gaidon just around the corner, but Dany also can't afford to lose someone as valuable as Mormont, as she sets out to reconquer the Seven Kingdoms. Yet she did and it was the right thing to do, IMO.

 

Dany is not thinking only of herself. She's thinking of making things better for all by unifying the Seven Kingdoms.

 

Egwene IS only thinking of herself and the good of the White Tower.

 

Now, I'm not trying to persuade or convince anyone of anything here. I'm merely expressing my thoughts, based on my understanding of ASoIaF and TWoT. And in that sense, I don't find any similarities between Dany and Egwene. If anything, Dany would be far beyond the small village's innkeep's daughter and more in line with the Dragon Reborn. She is after all, the Last of the Dragons

[JenniferL]

Hey look. People who start bickering with each other and carrying on tired, old flame wars the rest of us don't care about get their posts deleted.

[Werthead]

The TV show and the books are totally separate continuities. Nothing in one is canon for the other, so we cannot assume anything in the books is true for the TV series until it appears.

 

A good example is that in the TV series Renly has no real desire to be king, but Loras talks him into it. This is completely different to the books:

 

 

In the books, Renly and Loras, backed by Loras' father Mace Tyrell, hatch a scheme to convince Robert to divorce Cersei and marry Margaery Tyrell instead, and if Tywin Lannister doesn't like it the Reach armies will smash the Lannisters completely. When Robert dies, Renly and Loras panic briefly then decide to go for this backup plan of having Renly marry Margaery instead.

 

In the TV series the "Get Robert to marry Margaery," plan doesn't exist, whilst in the books the scene where Loras convinces Renly to take the crown whilst shaving him doesn't exist either.

 

 

Another good example (and very vaguely spoilery for Season 2, but not for the books):

 

 

In the books Stannis and Jon Arryn work together to discover the truth of Cersei's relationship with Jaime. Once they discover it, Stannis flees to Dragonstone, whilst Jon is assassinated. So when AGoT starts Stannis already knows what's going on.

 

In the TV series, Stannis isn't even a member of the small council, and it's the letter Eddard sends to Stannis that alerts him to what's happening (unlike the book, where the letter and its courier are captured and prevented from leaving the Red Keep) and sets that chain of events in motion. The two accounts are completely at odds with one another, so one is only true for the books and the other for the TV show.

 

 

 

 

Also, and I hate to be that guy, a cannon is something you shoot artillery shells out of. The word people are looking for with regards to a cohesive fictional world is 'canon'.

 

Sorry, but one of my pet linguistic bugbears.

[Werthead]

The first (probably of three) 'Story So Far' pieces for those who don't want to reread the books before ADWD comes out.

 

The first section deals with the mythical pre-history of the series leading up to the Targaryen invasion. Part 2 will deal with the Targaryen dynasty and hopefully will get into the books themselves.

[Werthead]

Part 2.

 

This one got a bit out of control and ended up being far more detailed than I planned. Unfortunately, it's unclear what parts of the backstory will be essential in ADWD and which are just fluff and flavour, so I had no choice but to put in everything and the kitchen sink in.

 

The good news is that brings up up to the books, so the next part will hopefully be able to summarise the existing books more concisely (though it may take two to do them justice).