Why is Egwenes arc so monstrously long?

[False Dragon1991]

Yes but thats just the problem. She never faces a significant obstacle or threat and her enemies are monstrously incompetent. You already have a character who from the beginning of being raised Amyrilin is too perfect at the role. There is way too much simple country girl wunderkin waltzes in and shows the out of touch and silly Aes Sedai how its done. When is she ever wrong or make a mistake or face moments of personal crisis? Rand does fail, does muck up and is on a self destructive path for a long time. Even captured, she rapidly ends up in control and we can't take the threat seriously because her foes are blatantly dumb. 

[EmperorAllspice]

Disgusting?  Seriously?  Eqwene's potential was recognized in book ONE.  And she's been doing nothing but learning, INTENSELY, since she first learn to embrace the source.  With the natural ability she had, and the drive to always be better, it's no wonder she was able to catch up and surpass most AS, who really just spend their time politicking rather than increasing their knowledge of the OP.  Most of them learn the weaves they need, and make do with those.  What's more, most AS are terrified of trying new things with the power, because it's been ingrained in them that they will burn themselves out or kill everyone around them if they make the slightest error.  Egwene had A) the benefit of a pet forsaken to teach her weaves that no one else livng knew, B) a natural ability to extrapolate from weaves she learned to create new ones, and C) the courage to TRY new weaves and the absence of crusty old AS trying to stop her from doing so.

 

Look at Nyn.  She creates an OBVIOUSLY superior weave for healing, and the gnarled old yellows mostly turned up their noses at it because it wasn't what they had always used.

 

And finally, she is in no way better that EVERY other AS.  She may be smarter than many, and more powerful than many, but not every.  I'm sure all other things being equal, Cadsuane would weave circles around egwene.  Moiraine may not have been as powerful, but I'm guessing she could have taught Eqwene a few new tricks as well.  Also don't forget that Egwene sucked at healing.  So just about every Yellow would have her beat there.

She's good at politics within the tower, but I'm sure many Browns, Whites, and Greys would be better suited for research and international diplomacy.

Most reds could probably teach her a bit about combating male channelers.

 

TL;DR - I think you're more than a little off base :)

If Aes Sedai spend all their time politiking then how is she already infinitely better than them at THAT too?

 

That's what I mean. Egwene's story isn't about power, it's about politics and keeping the aes sedai in line. But none of the other aes sedai, who apparently spend all their time politiking, can hold a candle to her.

 

A hero needs an obstacle to be interesting. And I personally like to see that opposition handled with dignity. The closest thing to a competent enemy Egwene has is Romanda. But even she is easily bested when she gets into a duel of words with Egwene (near the end of book 10)

[clutzyninja]

Yes but thats just the problem. She never faces a significant obstacle or threat and her enemies are monstrously incompetent. You already have a character who from the beginning of being raised Amyrilin is too perfect at the role. There is way too much simple country girl wunderkin waltzes in and shows the out of touch and silly Aes Sedai how its done. When is she ever wrong or make a mistake or face moments of personal crisis? Rand does fail, does muck up and is on a self destructive path for a long time. Even captured, she rapidly ends up in control and we can't take the threat seriously because her foes are blatantly dumb. 

She doesn't show them how it's done.  She reminds them of what their purpose and role is in the first place.  The WT tower NEEDED someone who was raised and educated outside of the internal politics to bring them back together

 

If Aes Sedai spend all their time politiking then how is she already infinitely better than them at THAT too?

 

That's what I mean. Egwene's story isn't about power, it's about politics and keeping the aes sedai in line. But none of the other aes sedai, who apparently spend all their time politiking, can hold a candle to her.

 

A hero needs an obstacle to be interesting. And I personally like to see that opposition handled with dignity. The closest thing to a competent enemy Egwene has is Romanda. But even she is easily bested when she gets into a duel of words with Egwene (near the end of book 10)

 

Egwene played at the politics for an entirely different reason than the rest of the AS.  The other AS spent their time meddling with other countries and trying to consolidate power for their own Ajahs, and undermining others.  That was due to both Elaida and the black.

And it's not as if Egwene was "infinitely" better at it.  She made mistakes while imprisoned in the WT.  Most of her influence came really rather simply.  She refused to break, and she engaged the novices and accepted that Elaida more or less ignored.  Beyond that, all she really had to do was step into the vaccuum that Elaida created.  If Elaida hadn't been...disposed of as she was, there's a good chance Egwene would not have been successful in uniting the tower, or at the very least, it would have taken longer, and therefore been too late.  Her skills were augmented by luck (the pattern?) on more than one occasion.

[Agitel]

It did take months for Egwene to earn the respect of the rebel Aes Sedai. She put on a strong front, but they didn't just bow down to her or listen much to her at first. I still remember that scene where she rides out to meet Mat, and Mat becomes upset at how alone she looks and at how the others are obviously ignoring her and he makes a big show of walking up to her and kissing her ring (I think those are the details of how it went down).

[EmperorAllspice]

But again, there's no opponent who's seen as being on her level. Any Aes Sedai who tries to go up against her fails easily. It's frustrating.

 

for example, take the duel of words between Egwene and Romanda near the end of book 10. Let Romanda get a few hits in on Egwene, she doesn't have to win, just let her put up a good fight before losing, show that Egwene isn't vastly better than the people who've been gaining skills in politics for years.

 

It's not interesting to read when the only people of any skill in anything are Egwene and her allies.

[clutzyninja]

But again, there's no opponent who's seen as being on her level. Any Aes Sedai who tries to go up against her fails easily. It's frustrating.

 

for example, take the duel of words between Egwene and Romanda near the end of book 10. Let Romanda get a few hits in on Egwene, she doesn't have to win, just let her put up a good fight before losing, show that Egwene isn't vastly better than the people who've been gaining skills in politics for years.

 

It's not interesting to read when the only people of any skill in anything are Egwene and her allies.

But the AS are NOT her opponents.  Elaida is her opponent, but she sees NONE of the others as opponents, just misguided people in need of direction.  They get in her way, but they are not the enemy.  They weren't exactly thrilled with Elaida's leadership, after all.  The AS WANTED a leader, they only balk at Egwene at first because of her age and relative inexperience, it's not as if they would rather die than see her as the Amyrlin.  Romanda's opposition is put down because she realized she was wrong, not because she was incapable.  And the same goes for all the others who initially were agaisnt Egwene.  Egwene was right, plain and simple, and it was just a matter of the others being able to admit that to themselves.

[EmperorAllspice]

But they are opposition. They create problems for her. They are against her and have goals that run contrary to what she wants. They are more of an antagonist than Elaida is. Elaida is incapable of doing anything to stop her up until now.

 

In tropes terms there's a term called The Heavy.

 

Now, a big bad is the ultimate threat but The Heavy is the force that does the most in the story to act as an obstacle. Which is what the Sitters are. They are an obstacle and I think it would've made Egwene's story less monotonous if they were actually shown to be more on par with Egwene than they come off as.

[clutzyninja]

But they weren't meant to be.  The opposition they showed to Egwene was only token.  Imagine if Egwene HAD bungled things drastically, and the sitters had a GOOD reason to remove her.  I think you would have found they became much more effective.  They were only opposing her out of reflex, not true malice.  And the longer Egwene held power, the better things got, so you might say they would have only been incompetant if they HAD showed stronger resistance.

[EmperorAllspice]

But they weren't meant to be.  The opposition they showed to Egwene was only token.  Imagine if Egwene HAD bungled things drastically, and the sitters had a GOOD reason to remove her.  I think you would have found they became much more effective.  They were only opposing her out of reflex, not true malice.  And the longer Egwene held power, the better things got, so you might say they would have only been incompetant if they HAD showed stronger resistance.

so you think they would've put up a better fight had they truly wanted to get rid of her?

[clutzyninja]

Yes, absolutely.

 

And even the ones that took longer to convince, well, "Any port in a storm," as they say.  Even if they didn't particularly like Egwene, she was all they had.

[Rhienne]

 

 

And finally, she is in no way better that EVERY other AS.  She may be smarter than many, and more powerful than many, but not every.  I'm sure all other things being equal, Cadsuane would weave circles around egwene.

There is a quote from one of the AS in the Tower in KoD that Cadsuane would find Egwene a challenge.  We see how Cadsuane runs circles round Rand, Nynaeve, and Min, yet other AS think Egwene would match up to her.  We are not shown a single AS who comes off better than Egwene in a verbal exchange.  Even when she is not directly arguing with an AS (in which case Egwene always wins), she is shown as better, more knowledgeable, etc. than AS in other ways (e.g. AS asking her for advice on Warders, etc.).

 

 I agree that Egwene is made overly competent and/or the other AS are made overly incompetent.  It makes Egwene frustrating to read for me, because her victories seem too contrived.  She never seems to have any moments of self-doubt which make her less believable for me.  We see Rand, Nynaeve, Aviendha, Perrin, etc. all question themselves and their place in the world.  From a couple of days after being raised as Amyrlin Egwene has zero doubts as to whether she is up for the job, whether she is the best person for it, etc.  Her self-confidence is completely rock-solid, which I find hard to believe in an 18 year old girl thrown into a world of 150-200 year old women who do have experience in politics and in the real world.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

And finally, she is in no way better that EVERY other AS. She may be smarter than many, and more powerful than many, but not every. I'm sure all other things being equal, Cadsuane would weave circles around egwene.

There is a quote from one of the AS in the Tower in KoD that Cadsuane would find Egwene a challenge.

Not much we can really take away from that quote. Cads would school Egwene in every way.

[EmperorAllspice]

Okay, that's one Aes Sedai who is ALSO an ally who can "school" Egwene

 

Any Black Ajahs who could take Egwene on?

[Plato]

Okay, that's one Aes Sedai who is ALSO an ally who can "school" Egwene

 

Any Black Ajahs who could take Egwene on?

 

Does not compute! Error! Error!  All Black ajah members are incompetent and only broke the tower because of a Forsaken!  Error! Error!

[EmperorAllspice]

It's amazing when everyone on the side of evil is completely useless. Makes you wonder why I'm even reading this series at all.

[Plato]

I began noticing that around book 3-4... by book 7 I was just along for the ride.

[Rhienne]

 

 

 

And finally, she is in no way better that EVERY other AS. She may be smarter than many, and more powerful than many, but not every. I'm sure all other things being equal, Cadsuane would weave circles around egwene.

There is a quote from one of the AS in the Tower in KoD that Cadsuane would find Egwene a challenge.

Not much we can really take away from that quote. Cads would school Egwene in every way.

 

It certainly doesn't suggest that Egwene would outsmart Cadsuane.  However, given that every AS we see interacting with Cadsuane almost immediately defers to her/is awestruck by her (beyond the level of deference that would normally be expected due to her high OP strength), its very high praise for an AS to say that about Egwene, and puts Egwene ahead of pretty much every AS we have seen interacting with Cadsuane, as well as most Tower AS, as otherwise the suggestion that it would be a rarity for Cadsuane to find anyone 'a challenge' doesn't make sense.

[MasterAblar]

 

 

 

 

And finally, she is in no way better that EVERY other AS. She may be smarter than many, and more powerful than many, but not every. I'm sure all other things being equal, Cadsuane would weave circles around egwene.

There is a quote from one of the AS in the Tower in KoD that Cadsuane would find Egwene a challenge.

Not much we can really take away from that quote. Cads would school Egwene in every way.

 

 

Yeah I think that mainly meant that Egwene is hard headed with a strong personality and won't back down easily. If I recall it was Adelorna who said that, and she was really just impressed with Egwene's refusal to bend.

[clutzyninja]

If you don't enjoy reading it....well, dont?

[False Dragon1991]

If you don't enjoy reading it....well, dont?

 

Yeah, I didn't read most of Egwenes Towers material and had to reread most of her Gathering Storm material. So many chapters of pointless material.

[lilltempest]

 

 

 

And finally, she is in no way better that EVERY other AS.  She may be smarter than many, and more powerful than many, but not every.  I'm sure all other things being equal, Cadsuane would weave circles around egwene.

There is a quote from one of the AS in the Tower in KoD that Cadsuane would find Egwene a challenge.  We see how Cadsuane runs circles round Rand, Nynaeve, and Min, yet other AS think Egwene would match up to her.  We are not shown a single AS who comes off better than Egwene in a verbal exchange.  Even when she is not directly arguing with an AS (in which case Egwene always wins), she is shown as better, more knowledgeable, etc. than AS in other ways (e.g. AS asking her for advice on Warders, etc.).

 

 I agree that Egwene is made overly competent and/or the other AS are made overly incompetent.  It makes Egwene frustrating to read for me, because her victories seem too contrived.  She never seems to have any moments of self-doubt which make her less believable for me.  We see Rand, Nynaeve, Aviendha, Perrin, etc. all question themselves and their place in the world.  From a couple of days after being raised as Amyrlin Egwene has zero doubts as to whether she is up for the job, whether she is the best person for it, etc.  Her self-confidence is completely rock-solid, which I find hard to believe in an 18 year old girl thrown into a world of 150-200 year old women who do have experience in politics and in the real world.

 

 

This is one of the main reasons I despise her arc and loathe the character. Every other character in the series gets slapped down at one time or another. Egwene never does, she just tramples over whoever resists her or wins them over with her perfection and/or glares. It is frustrating and annoying to read.

 

I have read books with characters I didn't like, but I still looked forward to their storylines because the character arc was interesting. I never found Egwene's arc interesting at all because she was presented as above it all. Plus, it was too unrealistic. If even one side character had gone off on her, as many did to Rand when he got too overbearing, then it would have been better. Just one Aes Sedai thinking that, while Egwene might be what the Tower needed in war time, she was too tyrannical and bullying, just like Elaida and needed to have strong checks on her power (or needed a strong Hall that would not fall for her manipulations) would have made readers like me nod in agreement and find the whole thing a bit more realistic. Instead, everyone worships her, bows to her, thinks that she's always right, and never has any complaints about her horrible treatment of them (Siuan should've told her to go to hell after she rescued her and Egwene was such a bitch about it...and Nyn should have just avoided her and left the tower once she had passed the test, given how Egwene showed her no respect, demanded complete subservience, and glared if Nyn voiced an opinion Egwene did not like). There was way too much ass kissing going on in her storyline, and she always "won". 

 

You mention the Cadsuane scene...it was all too obvious that the Aes Sedai who said it (it was Adelorna, the Captain General of the Green, btw) believed Egwene would best Cadsuane as well, so we readers were supposed to just assume that was the case, since Egwene easily cowed everyone else sooner or later. 

[Nick Trano]

 

 

 

 

And finally, she is in no way better that EVERY other AS.  She may be smarter than many, and more powerful than many, but not every.  I'm sure all other things being equal, Cadsuane would weave circles around egwene.

There is a quote from one of the AS in the Tower in KoD that Cadsuane would find Egwene a challenge.  We see how Cadsuane runs circles round Rand, Nynaeve, and Min, yet other AS think Egwene would match up to her.  We are not shown a single AS who comes off better than Egwene in a verbal exchange.  Even when she is not directly arguing with an AS (in which case Egwene always wins), she is shown as better, more knowledgeable, etc. than AS in other ways (e.g. AS asking her for advice on Warders, etc.).

 

 I agree that Egwene is made overly competent and/or the other AS are made overly incompetent.  It makes Egwene frustrating to read for me, because her victories seem too contrived.  She never seems to have any moments of self-doubt which make her less believable for me.  We see Rand, Nynaeve, Aviendha, Perrin, etc. all question themselves and their place in the world.  From a couple of days after being raised as Amyrlin Egwene has zero doubts as to whether she is up for the job, whether she is the best person for it, etc.  Her self-confidence is completely rock-solid, which I find hard to believe in an 18 year old girl thrown into a world of 150-200 year old women who do have experience in politics and in the real world.

 

 

This is one of the main reasons I despise her arc and loathe the character. Every other character in the series gets slapped down at one time or another. Egwene never does, she just tramples over whoever resists her or wins them over with her perfection and/or glares. It is frustrating and annoying to read.

 

I have read books with characters I didn't like, but I still looked forward to their storylines because the character arc was interesting. I never found Egwene's arc interesting at all because she was presented as above it all. Plus, it was too unrealistic. If even one side character had gone off on her, as many did to Rand when he got too overbearing, then it would have been better. Just one Aes Sedai thinking that, while Egwene might be what the Tower needed in war time, she was too tyrannical and bullying, just like Elaida and needed to have strong checks on her power (or needed a strong Hall that would not fall for her manipulations) would have made readers like me nod in agreement and find the whole thing a bit more realistic. Instead, everyone worships her, bows to her, thinks that she's always right, and never has any complaints about her horrible treatment of them (Siuan should've told her to go to hell after she rescued her and Egwene was such a bitch about it...and Nyn should have just avoided her and left the tower once she had passed the test, given how Egwene showed her no respect, demanded complete subservience, and glared if Nyn voiced an opinion Egwene did not like). There was way too much ass kissing going on in her storyline, and she always "won". 

 

You mention the Cadsuane scene...it was all too obvious that the Aes Sedai who said it (it was Adelorna, the Captain General of the Green, btw) believed Egwene would best Cadsuane as well, so we readers were supposed to just assume that was the case, since Egwene easily cowed everyone else sooner or later. 

 

 

THANK YOU. That is exactly how I feel about Egwene, and exactly how I wish Nynaeve would decide to react. I know that if I were her I'd have passed that test and then said "peace out, bitch!" and left the tower. She can do way more good out in the world healing and stuff than she can in the tower. I also like to think that somehow, eventually the Asha'Man are going to bring those Tar Valon witches to heel.

[Suttree]

You mention the Cadsuane scene...it was all too obvious that the Aes Sedai who said it (it was Adelorna, the Captain General of the Green, btw) believed Egwene would best Cadsuane as well, so we readers were supposed to just assume that was the case, since Egwene easily cowed everyone else sooner or later. 

 

Nope let's look at the quote:

 

KoD

   And then there was Adelorna Bastine. The Saldaean Green somehow managed stateliness in spite of being slim and no taller than Egwene, and she had a regal, commanding air that might have been intimidating had Egwene let it. “I hear you make trouble.” she said, picking up an ivory-backed hairbrush from a small inlaid table beside her chair. “If you try to make trouble with me, you’ll learn that I know how to use this.”

   Egwene did learn, without trying. Three times she went across Adelorna’s lap, and the woman did indeed know how to use a hairbrush for more than brushing her hair. That managed to stretch an hour lecture to two.

   “May I go now?” Egwene said at last, calmly drying her cheeks as well as she could with a handkerchief that was already damp. Breathe in the pain. Absorb the fire. “I’m supposed to fetch water up for the Red, and I don’t want to be late.”

   Adelorna frowned at her hairbrush before returning it to the table that Egwene had overset twice with her kicking. Then she frowned at Egwene, studying her as if trying to see inside her skull. “I wish Cadsuane were in the Tower,” she murmured. “I think she’d find you a challenge.” There seemed a touch of respect in her voice.

 

As others have said she was mainly impressed by Eggy's refusal to bend. There is zero implication that Egwene would best Cads and with what we know of her history Eggy wouldn't really stand a chance.

[Rhienne]

 

You mention the Cadsuane scene...it was all too obvious that the Aes Sedai who said it (it was Adelorna, the Captain General of the Green, btw) believed Egwene would best Cadsuane as well, so we readers were supposed to just assume that was the case, since Egwene easily cowed everyone else sooner or later. 

 

Nope let's look at the quote:

 

KoD

   And then there was Adelorna Bastine. The Saldaean Green somehow managed stateliness in spite of being slim and no taller than Egwene, and she had a regal, commanding air that might have been intimidating had Egwene let it. “I hear you make trouble.” she said, picking up an ivory-backed hairbrush from a small inlaid table beside her chair. “If you try to make trouble with me, you’ll learn that I know how to use this.”

   Egwene did learn, without trying. Three times she went across Adelorna’s lap, and the woman did indeed know how to use a hairbrush for more than brushing her hair. That managed to stretch an hour lecture to two.

   “May I go now?” Egwene said at last, calmly drying her cheeks as well as she could with a handkerchief that was already damp. Breathe in the pain. Absorb the fire. “I’m supposed to fetch water up for the Red, and I don’t want to be late.”

   Adelorna frowned at her hairbrush before returning it to the table that Egwene had overset twice with her kicking. Then she frowned at Egwene, studying her as if trying to see inside her skull. “I wish Cadsuane were in the Tower,” she murmured. “I think she’d find you a challenge.” There seemed a touch of respect in her voice.

 

As others have said she was mainly impressed by Eggy's refusal to bend. There is zero implication that Egwene would best Cads and with what we know of her history Eggy wouldn't really stand a chance.

 

Agreed.  My point, was really just that given how little of a 'challenge' the majority of Aes Sedai are to Egwene, it is still very high praise.

[EmperorAllspice]

 

 

You mention the Cadsuane scene...it was all too obvious that the Aes Sedai who said it (it was Adelorna, the Captain General of the Green, btw) believed Egwene would best Cadsuane as well, so we readers were supposed to just assume that was the case, since Egwene easily cowed everyone else sooner or later. 

 

Nope let's look at the quote:

 

KoD

   And then there was Adelorna Bastine. The Saldaean Green somehow managed stateliness in spite of being slim and no taller than Egwene, and she had a regal, commanding air that might have been intimidating had Egwene let it. “I hear you make trouble.” she said, picking up an ivory-backed hairbrush from a small inlaid table beside her chair. “If you try to make trouble with me, you’ll learn that I know how to use this.”

   Egwene did learn, without trying. Three times she went across Adelorna’s lap, and the woman did indeed know how to use a hairbrush for more than brushing her hair. That managed to stretch an hour lecture to two.

   “May I go now?” Egwene said at last, calmly drying her cheeks as well as she could with a handkerchief that was already damp. Breathe in the pain. Absorb the fire. “I’m supposed to fetch water up for the Red, and I don’t want to be late.”

   Adelorna frowned at her hairbrush before returning it to the table that Egwene had overset twice with her kicking. Then she frowned at Egwene, studying her as if trying to see inside her skull. “I wish Cadsuane were in the Tower,” she murmured. “I think she’d find you a challenge.” There seemed a touch of respect in her voice.

 

As others have said she was mainly impressed by Eggy's refusal to bend. There is zero implication that Egwene would best Cads and with what we know of her history Eggy wouldn't really stand a chance.

 

Agreed.  My point, was really just that given how little of a 'challenge' the majority of Aes Sedai are to Egwene, it is still very high praise.

 

and I would argue that that's absolutely pathetic. Especially given the history the Aes Sedai have with politics.