Rand and Lews Therin

[ratswot]

Not sure if this has been explained already.

Rand thought he was going mad because he had Lews Therin in his head. For a while I thought this was the madness due to the taint in Saidin. When it became clear Rand was an incarnation of Lews, and they were essentially the same person, I never quite resolved whether the taint had anything to do this. If Saidin had been clean to start off with would Rand still have Lews in his head or as a result of being TDR they would have merged anyway?

[Suttree]

The prevailing theory is the taint broke down past life barriers and allowed him access to those memories. If saidin had been clean it's not clear if it would have happened although Semi's cites examples of similar things happening to insane people during the AoL.

[ratswot]

The prevailing theory is the taint broke down past life barriers and allowed him access to those memories. If saidin had been clean it's not clear if it would have happened although Semi's cites examples of similar things happening to insane people during the AoL.

 

Were there examples of other male channelers who experienced something similar to Rand?

[Suttree]

Not in the current time that I can recall. Here is the quote from KoD:

 

   Semirhage saved him the effort of thinking up a lie. “He’s insane,” she said coolly. Standing there stiff as a statue, Min’s knife hilt still sticking out beside her collarbone and the front of her black dress glistening with blood, she might have been a queen on her throne. “Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know. Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin’s voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real, however. In fact, that makes his situation worse. Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be… abrupt.” Her lips curved in a smile that never touched her dark eyes.

 

[clutzyninja]

I imagine (through no cooborating evidence, mind you) that without the taint, Rand would have the raw power of the DR, and an unmatched intuitiveness when it came to weaving the OP, but he wouldn't have heard the voices. 

There's a spoiler in aMoL that alludes to this, but doesn't confirm it.  Rand more or less thanks the DO for the taint, because it allowed him to talk to LTT.

 

[Mr Ares]

The taint causes insanity, but the forms of insanity it causes are possible without the taint. Rand's insanity manifested in a somewhat fortuitous way - LTT's voice and memories breaking through. Of course, there were enough other pressures on Rand that he might perhaps have cracked anyway, but the Taint aided the process. We have no reason to believe that Rand accessing LTT's memories is an innate function of being the Dragon Reborn.

[EmperorAllspice]

So if the taint had ravaged him longer, would he have started hearing the dragon BEFORE Lews?

[clutzyninja]

Probably not. Rand's thread is the same thread as LTTs in the pattern.  Since that thread was not used in between the two men, you could say they are "adjacent" to each other.  Imagine one thread on a spool abruptly changing colors throughout the spool many times.  Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and back again.  Rand and LTT are orange and yellow, they share a border, so they are more closely connected.  Then you might say the taint made the dye run and blend together a bit, hence the memory sharing.  And sharing both ways, remember, LTT shares Rands memories as well.

These are all my ramblings and theories, I have no eveidence to back this up, lol

[Barid Bel Medar]

Even if it was theoretically possible, Rand would have died before it got to that point. What is often forgotten - I admit I forget it anyway - is that the Taint doesn't just cause madness, but it also leads to inevitable wasting sickness and death. 

[EmperorAllspice]

Lews is aware that he's dead inside Rand's head. Does that mean his thread is kinda "growing" forward into Rand's? Since he's acting after his thread technically ended (with his life)

 

Also, why is Lews insane half of the time? Is it because of the taint? Or is it grief induced insanity caused by killing his loved ones?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, there is the theory that Lews Therin isn't really the "real" Lews Therin. 

 

That the voice is a construction made by Rand in his insane state to put a "voice" to the memories. 

 

So that means that it's Rand's impression of how Lews Therin should be instead of how he actually was. 

 

The other theory is that the voice is real and separate, and that it's the voice of Lews Therin who's still mad from the AoL (so yeah, the taint). His grief would certainly make it much worse as well. 

 

The Real v Construct debate is one that still rages and there isn't a 100% answer. So you can take your pick. 

[clutzyninja]

But doesn't Rand learn things from LTT that aren't in the histories, but that we know to be true from the EotW prologue?

[Barid Bel Medar]

It doesn't mean the memories aren't real. It just means the voice isn't. That Lews Therin isn't actually aware inside Rand's mind. 

 

The construct theory means that Rand created the voice to deal with the memories of Lews Therin's life because he couldn't handle them - he separated himself from his former life, Lews Therin, who went mad and killed his family. 

 

The memories are still there, but "Lews Therin" is not, it's just Rand refusing to admit he was Lews Therin reborn so he created the voice as a separate man who is invading his mind. 

[clutzyninja]

Oh I see.  That actually makes a lot of sense...although...

 

If it was just a construct, I wonder if the voice would have gone away after Dragonmount. When Nyn saw the taint being held back by the glow, I took that to mean the taint no longer had a hold of his mind, and that the link to LTT was severed. Though I suppose even as a construct the same revelations on Dragonmount could have subconsciously convinced Rand he didn't NEED to talk to LTT anymore...

 

[wotfan4472]

I prefer the construct theory here. I do not believe for a minute that LTT would be insane from the taint since Ishamael did away with it if he was a real voice.

 

More likely Semirhage lied to create distrust within Rand's power base. This is something the DO would want done, and also quite logical, since it made Rand even worse from this point, watching everyone around him constantly react to Semirhage's answer. 

 

It played into the Shadow's hands, and was stopped only in TGS.

[Tsukibana]

Ishamael didn't "do away with" LTT's taint. He gave him a few moment's of lucidity. Even in the AoL, NO ONE, until Nyna 3000 later, could Cure/Heal the Taint/Madness. And Ishy was far from a skilled Healer. 

[szilard]

The Real v Construct debate is one that still rages and there isn't a 100% answer. So you can take your pick. 

 

 

 

Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?

 

Albus Dumbledore       

[jedman67]

in VoG, rand realizes that LTT was gone, and in fact had never been there to begin with (this supports the construct theory). VoG also allowed rand to break down the final barriers (and remember all his past lives, to an extant) but only LTT's memories stayed - Rand remembers being LTT. While this would normally be a sign of insanity, VoG allowed him to put the insanity at bay.[removed]

 

The Real v Construct debate is one that still rages and there isn't a 100% answer. So you can take your pick. 

 

 

 

Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?

 

Albus Dumbledore       

 

Just 'cause you're paranoid does not mean that nobody's out to get you....

[EmperorAllspice]

Now I imagine Lews and Rand beinglike Ghost Nappa and Vegeta from DBZ Abridged

Lews: "I think your rage broke, Rand"

Rand: "SHUT UP GHOST OF LEWS THERIN!"

Logain: "What was that?"

Rand: "I'M NOT CRAZY! YOU'RE CRAZY! Especially you, Lews Therin!"

Lews: "Awwww."

 

[Mr Ares]

I prefer the construct theory here. I do not believe for a minute that LTT would be insane from the taint since Ishamael did away with it if he was a real voice.

 

More likely Semirhage lied to create distrust within Rand's power base. This is something the DO would want done, and also quite logical, since it made Rand even worse from this point, watching everyone around him constantly react to Semirhage's answer. 

 

It played into the Shadow's hands, and was stopped only in TGS.

It is equally likely that Semi told the truth to create distrust within Rand's power base - the result is the same, whether or not what she said is true. The perception is more important than the reality.

 

in VoG, rand realizes that LTT was gone, and in fact had never been there to begin with (this supports the construct theory). VoG also allowed rand to break down the final barriers (and remember all his past lives, to an extant) but only LTT's memories stayed - Rand remembers being LTT. While this would normally be a sign of insanity, VoG allowed him to put the insanity at bay.[removed]

Of course, just because a character has an understanding of what has happened, doesn't mean that understanding is correct. Especially with something as metaphysical as this.

 

I'm a realist, at least insofar as I believe that there is more to the Voice than it just being a creation of Rand's own mind, even if it is not Lews Therin, the man, in his entirety. It seems to me to be a fragment of LTT's mind.

[jedman67]

I'm a realist, at least insofar as I believe that there is more to the Voice than it just being a creation of Rand's own mind, even if it is not Lews Therin, the man, in his entirety. It seems to me to be a fragment of LTT's mind.

certainly plausible. After VoG (even before that, a little bit) he seems to be a combination of both - he acts like LTT in some ways, talks like him a little bit, and clearly remembers being him.