One thing that has alwasy facinated me but is rarely discussed

[dexterryu]

Now that the series is done, and the majority of people have finished the book I wanted to see if we could get a good collection of information on the different ages of the Wheel of time, and what the world was like during those ages.

 

Age 1: None

 

Age 2: Age of Legends - Quite a bit of information. World was peaceful, prosperous. Lots of great feats with the OP.

 

Age 3: Age of Illusions - Main age of the story. No need to discuss

 

Age 4: Glimps of possible future via Aviendha. Not much else known. Possible technology

 

Age 5: None

 

Age 6: None

 

Age 7: None.

 

One of those ages is supposed to be present day where no chaneling is present. My guess is that it is Age 5 based simply off the fact of the possible Seanchan global domination culling of channelers.

 

It's also implied that the portal/traveling stones were made BEFORE the AoL (not 100% sure on this). Other questions would be what happens to some of the more permanant things within the world like the Ways (they can't be destroyed).

 

Where does the evil of Mordeath originate (he discovers it from studying a non-DO ancient evil)?

 

What do you guys think? Possible that these show up in the encyclopedia? Maybe Terez with her connections can ask BS/TJ?

 

Dexterryu

[BFG]

I think I've read somewhere that the first age is ours, but I'm not sure. 

 

The legends seem to reference the moon landing, Cold War, Queen Elisabeth and I think there were a couple more

[Rhienne]

 

The legends seem to reference the moon landing, Cold War, Queen Elisabeth and I think there were a couple more

We also have references to Mother Teresa (Malterese the Healer, Mother of the Wondrous Ind), Anne Landers (Anla the wise counsellor), the Buddha, giraffes and elephants, a reference to a Tennyson poem and Mercedes Benz, plus a selection of name changes with time (e.g. Paitr to Peter, Paedrig to Patrick, Mikel to Michael), which I think strongly suggests our age is the one prior to the AoL.  It would be a bit strange if there were legends about the AoL and an age two before it, but nothing from the age in-between.

[ratswot]

 

We also have references to Mother Teresa (Malterese the Healer, Mother of the Wondrous Ind), Anne Landers (Anla the wise counsellor), the Buddha, giraffes and elephants, a reference to a Tennyson poem and Mercedes Benz, plus a selection of name changes with time (e.g. Paitr to Peter, Paedrig to Patrick, Mikel to Michael), which I think strongly suggests our age is the one prior to the AoL.  It would be a bit strange if there were legends about the AoL and an age two before it, but nothing from the age in-between.

 

 

The legends seem to reference the moon landing, Cold War, Queen Elisabeth and I think there were a couple more

 

 

Very interesting. Can you please post some quotes from the book regarding Mercedes Benz, Cold War, Moon landing etc?

[Yamezt]

Moon landing: "Tell us about Lenn,"Egwene called. "How he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire. Tell about his daughter Salya walking among the stars.

 

Benz:  "A silvery thing in another cabinet, like a three-pointed star inside a circle, was made of no substance she knew; it was softer than metal, scratched and gouged, yet even older than any of the ancient bones. From ten paces she could sense pride and vanity." 

 

Cold war: "Did Mosk & Merk really fight with spears of fire, and were they even giants?"

[BFG]

tSR 20.

 

She almost stopped him short – girl? She was Daughter Heir of Andor, not girl – but he had the bit in his teeth. "And that is only a thousand years back. Go back further, back to the oldest tales I know, from the Age before the Age of Legends. Did Mosk and Merk really fight with spears of fire, and were they even giants? Was Elsbet really queen of the whole world, and was Anla really her sister? Was Anla truly the Wise Counselor, or was it someone else? As well ask what sort of animal ivory comes from, or what kind of plant grows silk. Unless that comes from an animal, too."
   "I do not know about those other questions," Elayne said a bit stiffly; being called girl still rankled, "but you could ask the Sea Folk about ivory and silk."

 

tEotW 4

 

   "Tell us about Lenn," Egwene called. "How he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire. Tell about his daughter Salya walking among the stars."
   Rand looked at her out of the corner of his eye, but she seemed intent on the gleeman. She had never liked stories about adventures and long journeys. Her favorites were always the funny ones, or stories about women outwitting people who were supposed to be smarter than everyone else. He was sure she had asked for tales about Lenn and Salya to put a burr under his shirt. Surely she could see the world outside was no place for Two Rivers folk. Listening to tales of adventures, even dreaming about them, was one thing; having them take place around you would be something else again.
   "Old stories, those," Thom Merrilin said, and abruptly he was juggling three colored balls with each hand. "Stories from the Age before the Age of Legends, some say. Perhaps even older. But I have all stories, mind you now, of Ages that were and will be. Ages when men ruled the heavens and the stars, and Ages when man roamed as brother to the animals. Ages of wonder, and Ages of horror. Ages ended by fire raining from the skies, and Ages doomed by snow and ice covering land and sea. I have all stories, and I will tell all stories. Tales of Mosk the Giant, with his Lance of Fire that could reach around the world, and his wars with Alsbet, the Queen of All. Tales of Materese the Healer, Mother of the Wondrous Ind."

[ratswot]

 

Moon landing: "Tell us about Lenn,"Egwene called. "How he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire. Tell about his daughter Salya walking among the stars.

 

Benz:  "A silvery thing in another cabinet, like a three-pointed star inside a circle, was made of no substance she knew; it was softer than metal, scratched and gouged, yet even older than any of the ancient bones. From ten paces she could sense pride and vanity." 

 

Cold war: "Did Mosk & Merk really fight with spears of fire, and were they even giants?"

 

 

Interesting but some of these are a bit of a stretch. Is Lenn supposed to be Neil Armstrong? Who is Salya? What is the Merc emblem made of? I am fairly sure it is not "softer than metal".

 

Mosk and Merk?

[Mats Spare Hat]

John Glenn

Sally Ride

Moscow, America

[Suttree]

 

 

Moon landing: "Tell us about Lenn,"Egwene called. "How he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire. Tell about his daughter Salya walking among the stars.

 

Benz:  "A silvery thing in another cabinet, like a three-pointed star inside a circle, was made of no substance she knew; it was softer than metal, scratched and gouged, yet even older than any of the ancient bones. From ten paces she could sense pride and vanity." 

 

Cold war: "Did Mosk & Merk really fight with spears of fire, and were they even giants?"

 

 

Interesting but some of these are a bit of a stretch. Is Lenn supposed to be Neil Armstrong? Who is Salya? What is the Merc emblem made of? I am fairly sure it is not "softer than metal".

 

Mosk and Merk?

 

 

Some of the real world refs compiled:

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Real-world_references

[Yamezt]

Here is the interview (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=183):

 

QUESTION

There is a widespread debate on the internet: you mentioned some tales of times like Mosk and Merk...does it have any connection with America and Moscow?

ROBERT JORDAN

Yes. I thought that one was very obvious.

QUESTION

(various mumblings about Anla)

HARRIET MCDOUGAL

Anla, the Wise Counselor, she was the most popular advice columnist in the United States. Do you know Abby and Ann[?]? You write to the paper with a problem, you know, "What shall I do?", and she tells you. But her name was Ann Landers.

ROBERT JORDAN

And she was the most widely distributed advice columnist for what? 40 years? In the United States, and syndicated in newspapers all over the country. Anla the Wise Counselor was Ann Landers.

QUESTION

We would never have guessed it.

ROBERT JORDAN

No, but I try not to throw in everything that that people are going to guess immediately.

HARRIET MCDOUGAL

And Salya?

ROBERT JORDAN

No, let's not talk about Salya. [Q confused.] Salya, who walked among the stars? Lenn, who went to the moon in the belly of a fire eagle? Yes? And his daughter Salya who walked among the stars? [much mumbling] No, she didn't—she wasn't on the Challenger. Sally Ride was the first female American astronaut. So, that's Salya, who in this thing has become the daughter of Lenn, who was John Glenn, who did not go to the moon in an eagle, but flies to the moon in the belly of a "fire eagle"...

HARRIET MCDOUGAL

[interrupts] And his relationship to Salya. That's how it works.

ROBERT JORDAN

But that's the whole thing, in these books: it's giving you hints, really, and it was the way it was giving you hints, clearly, as to the way things are working in the books, that these are the source of legends, but it's not in any way a straightforward retelling. What two or three men have done will be compressed to make one story, or what one man has done may be split up into two different men—this part's given to somebody else, and that part's given to that one—and he himself is completely forgotten. I put these things there in a way as a clue, a hint to you: this is the way things are working in these books, this is what has come of things that are somewhat recognizable from our time. What myths have risen out of them? So, you see how the distortion has happened. What myths are going to arise out of the events of these books? It's not going to be just another telling of what happens in these books—it's all going to be twisted and woven together in ways that nobody who was there at the events would ever recognize.

[ratswot]

What was obvious to RJ was not necessarily obvious to us.  :-( After all he thought it was perfectly clear who killed Asmodean ...

[Suttree]

Well he did say he was joking when he said "intuitively obvious" but a good portion of the online fandom who worked through it had their money on Graendal. Many thought RJ tipped his hand here as well.

Interview: Dec 12th, 2000

CNN Chat (Verbatim)

Vercingetorix

Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him.

Robert Jordan

I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me.

 

[ratswot]

The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me.

 

 

LOL! I think that sums up RJ nicely.

[dexterryu]

Hey guys... thanks for all the replies. That said, I think what I was originally hoping to talk about was the other ages and not the real world references (which as Suttree pointed out, have been very thoroughly discussed previously). I know there is very little actual information on these other ages, so feel free to theorize and imagine as you please. Again things, I'm referring to are more like:

 

Wolfbrothers - Obviously not AoL. Obviously not from our time, but something that did happen at some point.

 

Evil behind Mordeath\Mashadar

 

Portal Stones - Lanfear implies that they were not created during her age if I recall properly.

[jedman67]

Hey guys... thanks for all the replies. That said, I think what I was originally hoping to talk about was the other ages and not the real world references (which as Suttree pointed out, have been very thoroughly discussed previously). I know there is very little actual information on these other ages, so feel free to theorize and imagine as you please. Again things, I'm referring to are more like:

 

Wolfbrothers - Obviously not AoL. Obviously not from our time, but something that did happen at some point.

 

Evil behind Mordeath\Mashadar

 

Portal Stones - Lanfear implies that they were not created during her age if I recall properly.

Wolfbrothers is implied to be something ancient. Perhaps even from an earlier age than "our" age; perhaps the "origin" to werewolf tales, which would make it early first age or late 7th age from the last turning. 

 

There was a discussion on this, I dont remember which forum. RJ has explained, IIRC, that Mordeth went to Finnland to search for a way to fight the DO. On their advice, he went seeking where he should not, and discovered an evil more ancient than the DO. He thought he could use this as a way to fight, if not defeat, the DO while resisting the corruption, but he was already "infected" when he became a counselor in Aridhol. Eventually this evil birthed Mashadar, which is suggested to have come from the people of Aridhol themselves. 

To demonstrate in modern terms; everyone will agree that Nazi Germany was evil. But Nazism was "lawful evil" as it was societal based. Stalin's Soviet Union was evil of a different sort. communism denied economic freedom, societal freedom, and freedom of speech to its citizens. Anyone who spoke up against the state "disappeared". Millions were imprisoned to hard labor in terrible conditions, and millions were murdered at the whim of the government.

Or you can take Imperial Japan, which had a very strict honor code (im generalizing) but for the most part its people lived with significantly more freedom than in USSR or Germany at the time. However, Imperial Japan had a very militaristic component of society, with a certain ruthlessness anathema to western culture. Japan was not truly evil compared to its Axis counterparts.

 

Not the best example.

[driedraspberry]

Has RJ ever mentioned why LTT was nicknamed the Dragon, or mentioned dragons at all? I wonder if there were ever dragons in other ages or if we are to assume the concept of dragons was derived from the Dragon shooting saidin fireballs?

[Suttree]

Various answers here...

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='dragons'

 

For LTT it seems to be what they named him as a symbol and he took it for his banner.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It's pretty much impossible to really discuss the other ages. We know about 3 ages, AoL, 3rd and 4th age. We don't know much about the AoL and the 4th age, the only age we know is the 3rd. 

 

The other ages are totally unknown. 

 

There isn't much to say about them, anything will be pretty much pure guesswork. 

 

I believe RJ said the 1st age was not our own age. I'd say it would be the 7th, possibly the 6th are the best guesses. 

 

Wolfbrothers/Sisters I'd say weren't really from any particular age. They are just a part of the Wheel and appear in various ages. 

 

The Portal Stones I'd say were similar. I think they are just a feature of the Wheel. I'm sure they have an origin, but I don't think it is something unique to this particular turning of the Wheel. 

 

The evil of Shadar Logoth is a different one. I think the actual source of the Power is something that just exists. However, as has been said, Mordeth managed to manifest it in the 3rd Age. I don't think source was a creation, it's just something that exists. The ways it can manifest however, are unique. I'd say that it has been used various times in the past in different forms. 

 

Beyond that, I'm not sure what else. 

[Elynde]

Hey guys... thanks for all the replies. That said, I think what I was originally hoping to talk about was the other ages and not the real world references (which as Suttree pointed out, have been very thoroughly discussed previously). I know there is very little actual information on these other ages, so feel free to theorize and imagine as you please. Again things, I'm referring to are more like:

 

Wolfbrothers - Obviously not AoL. Obviously not from our time, but something that did happen at some point.

 

Evil behind Mordeath\Mashadar

 

Portal Stones - Lanfear implies that they were not created during her age if I recall properly.

 

Well...  I my humble opinion....

 

Wolfbrothers remind me very much of old Native American legends and mythology.  There a plenty of tales of men speaking to animals, gaining the strength of that animal, etc.

 

Mordeath and Mashadar seem to be a physical manifestation of a cultural darkness, like the Nazi movement someone mentioned earlier.  Then again, it could be something left over from the wars of power that the people gave physical form.

 

Portal Stones are very, very prevelant in old Celtic myths.  For example, the amount of people stepping on a bizare stone and ending up in Tir na nog (the land of fae magics).

 

Edit:  Also regarding portal stones, check out bits of history reflecting standing stones, henges, and dolmen.  Specifically these:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolmen.