[Plot Specific] The Final Verdict

[Barid Bel Medar]

Now that the Wheel has come full circle, and the entire story has been told; what is your final verdict on the story? 

 

For a long many of us have withheld judgement on some of the stories main points until all is revealed. Finally, with the full story revealed (or as far as it will ever be revealed) what are you thoughts on the various plot-lines we have lived - sometimes for decades.

 

A few things to remember when thinking about this topic:

 

- I specify that this is plot specific - quality of writing is not the topic of debate. However, there is valid crticism to be made on the plot  written by both authors. Praising or criticising both RJ and Brandon's plot virtues and vices is a very big part of this thread (if not the entire point). 

 

- In addition to the previous point: Brandon has freely admitted that - for the final 3 volumes - approximately 50% was his creation, not following specified notes, but rather his own ideas, created with his understanding or opinion on the series and the broader notes on the series as a whole. Thus, for those plot-lines that have not been credited to RJ (unlike the ToG, the final Sealing of the DO and the fate of Rand, which have been confirmed as RJ) we cannot know what RJ would have done. 

 

- RJ was writing - at least the final few books - with the assumption that he would be writing Outriggers. Thus, we have to remember that many things that have been left unfinished - namely the Seanchan - were left out of the main series because they would have been in the Outriggers. Unfortunately, due to the tragic events that have played out, we will never know what was intended for the Outriggers (beyond Mat and Tuon in Seanchan, and Perrin on a ship, deciding he has to kill a friend.) So you may want to keep that in mind when thinking about the vast amount of unfinished work. 

After all, in many ways, this is an unfinished work. Brandon did his best to finish it with dignity, but many ideas and future plot-lines were cut short with RJ's untimely death. 

 Similarly, RJ also planned another two prequels in addition to New Spring. 

[Aulduron]

I could criticize this or that, but the bottom line is that they were great books that would have been cut short if not for Mr Sanderson. 

[Cybertrolloc]

Let's see, first Chronicles of Thomas Covenant with heroes instead of an anti-hero and some Dune seasoning?

 

Plot wasn't a reason for me to read WoT for a good while now, and probably the better parts weren't really important to the main plot. DO v everyone didn't have the oomph RJ always said it would, was really hoping for something original there.

[BFG]

For me the stuff that's unfinished that would always have finished after the books ended don't bother me, so the Seanchan, what happens to the main characters, etc. For me the book ended in the right place and I'm not bothered about not having the Outriggers, although obviously I'd have read them if they were published (by RJ).

 

After that it's a tricky question. There are several plot points that had the potential to be really interesting but weren't developed enough by either author. It seems that when RJ was doing his worldbuilding he introduced several elements that helped to develop the world, the cultures and the scope of it, but they seemed to drop out of the story between 8 and 10. Although most received a mention in the latter books it often felt to brief for the build-up in the early books.

 

This includes:

• the Black Tower
• Fain
• the Kin
• the Sea Folk
• the Tinkers

But I'm not sure whether or not I'd argue that any could be cut. I'd argue the cause of the 'problem' (if you agree it's a problem) is that throughout the books we've followed the events through the POVs of the main characters, so we're introduced to these cultures as the characters come across them, but then lose them as the characters move on, but the world felt larger and more in depth because the characters were moving through all these different cultures. So realistically we either 'lose' the cultures or the characters back-track or we get more POV characters. None of these are ideal solutions, lose the cultures and you lose half the beauty in the story, characters back-tracking is rarely done well and the story didn't need more POV characters.

 

EDIT: despite including them on the list above, I think the Tinkers had a decent finish, the side observation that they were heading to Seanchan was enough for me. I also like the ending and hints given for the Black Tower at the end of MoL, I just feel that something is missing from the story to reach that stage. (Despite the fact that Logain's arc is one of my favorite in MoL)

[Rhienne]

Overall, I think despite its flaws, the overall plot of the WoT is still one of my favourites of any fantasy series I have read.  I like the complexity of the story, I like the massive world expansion, the level of detail given to cultures, institutions, and rituals, which I think helps to give the rest of the plot realism, and I like the interweaving of different characters plot arcs.  I prefer the first two thirds of the series to the last third in this respect, because I felt hat two many character arcs were expanded and developed over the beginning and middle of the series, and then dropped or side-lined so that the build up did not match the end result.

 

When you look at the various main sub-plots contributing to the overall plot, some I feel very satisfied with, and others not so much.  

 

Of the one's that I feel satisfied with, I think Rand's arc (including his personal development, the overlying theme of dark vs. light, and his uniting of the nations), Egwene's arc (including her personal development and the White Tower/AS), Lan's, and Perrin's arc (including his personal development, his relationship with Faile, the wolves, and the Two Rivers) are my favourites, with Perrin's sections of the plot being perhaps the most well rounded in my eyes.  I felt that for all these plots there were satisfying conclusions, not too many unanswered questions, and a climatic role in the final battle which I felt suited the characters/plots and enjoyed reading (both in terms of being enjoyable, and as end to the story).  The only thing I felt was underdone a little was the wolves.  I would have liked a few more scenes with them, although I think their role was symbollically tied off for me with Perrin's forging of his hammer.  I felt Lan's plot and the plot of Malkier was interesting as it was one of the few plots which was still ramping up as we came into the final books.  All the history and legend of Malkier and Malkieri warriors, and then seeing the Golden Crane rise again and be followed by men was very enjoyable.  A more minor plot arc which I felt was quite well rounded was the Children of the Light, and Galad.

 

The arcs I am dissatisfied with are Mat's (including the Seanchan), Nynaeve's, Moiraine's, the Kin, and the Seafolk.  I felt Nynaeve and Moiraine had a lot to do in the early and mid-series, but then both suffered in the later books; Moiraine because I don't think her return was sufficiently dramatic and I found it unsatisfying not to have some closure on her relationships with Lan and Siuan; and Nynaeve because she was a character who seemed to run out of steam and just become an accessory to other characters plots.  The Kin and the Seafolk were plot arcs/groups I didn't enjoy, although I'm not entirely sure they were ever meant to be more than world building material.  I think part of the problem with them may be that they were never meant to have any particular significance beyond Ebou Dar, but we saw so much of them in the dragging out of the succession and the Bowl of the Winds plots that we felt they were more important that they should be.  For the Seanchan, I appreciate that there were meant to be outriggers, but I don't think that negates the necessity of having a satisfying conclusion for them within the context of the series, and I felt the last scenes with Mat and the Seanchan were very rushed.  I didn't like how Mat seemed to be just shifted from the Band of the Red Hand (and replaced by Talmanes) and switched to the Seanchan so rapidly.

 

On more minor notes, I found the lack of an ending note (even a brief one) on Morgase unsatisfactory, and the manner (but not the nature) of Siuan's and Bryne's ending unsatisfactory.

[PhoenixUK]

In terms of plot? I think its still an impressive series. I dont mind the Seanchan aspect. Its a complicated world, why should everything be wrapped up by the end of book 14, what would be left to happen in the Fourth Age then? 

 

There are weak points. 

 

Fain - after book 7 he had no use but lingered on. Should prob have been killed when he attacked Rand in the rebel camp, as he gave the final clue to cleansing saidin when his

dagger wound was sealed against the Ishamael wound by Damer . no need for his minor part in WH and then useless in AMOL.

 

Moiraine - after such a long wait, her intervention in Egwene and Rand's bickering and then joining with Rand in the circle, just felt ... meh. Maybe that was just Sanderson writing, but im not convinced RJ would have done much better if thats all there was to her.

 

Forsaken - some of them were remarkably devious and effective but most of them were downright incompetent - what was the point of Balthamel/Arangar/Halima? She spied on the rebel aes sedai but they had plenty of Black ajah to do that. She gave egwene headaches ... wow. There was just too much on their part which never went anywhere spectacular. 

 

Callandor - the flaws magnify saidin taint and leave you vulnerable to women linking. OK. but it ALSO channels the True Power. This plot point fell apart. 

 

I'm sure there are others. 

 

BUT that does not take away from the awesomeness of so many other ideas and plots like

the seanchan 

the aelfinn and eelfinn

the way so many things were set in motion so that Rand would be born on dragonmount

What Verin was up to all this time

cleansing of saidin 

 

Overall I still think the WOT is an impressive body of work, RJ's imagination in world building and creating such complex plot points and setting up so many clues here and there are awe inspiring

[Aulduron]

The headaches were meant to hinder her dreaming. I'd have to re-read that whole part to see how effective it was. 

[Rhienne]

Forgot to mention one of my favourite plotlines, the Black Ajah hunt.  I loved how this evolved from its beginnings in tGH with Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne chasing off to Tear, and then the trip to Tanchico, the uncertainty over who was BA among the rebel AS, and Pevara's and Seaine's hunt for the BA in the WT.  Those scenes in the basement of the WT were wonderfully tense and gave us a glimpse into some of the better AS under Elaida.  And of course Verin's role in the whole thing was superb.  I knew there was something up with her, but I never guessed the full extent of her courage until it was revealed.  I think this plot was well paced, and kept interest by weaving in and out of other plots and multiple character arcs, always adding something new in each book, but never really rising to prominence until Verin's revelations.

[Mr Ares]

Fain - after book 7 he had no use but lingered on. Should prob have been killed when he attacked Rand in the rebel camp, as he gave the final clue to cleansing saidin when his

dagger wound was sealed against the Ishamael wound by Damer . no need for his minor part in WH and then useless in AMOL.

The problem here is that we ended up with something which lay between two good solutions - either finish off Fain in book seven (his part being played) or keep him around for the finale (and have a role there). Had his role in AMoL been expanded, his presence would have been justified. Instead, he lingers despite no longer having a role.

 

The BA hunt plotline suffered similarly - a good set up, good characters, good scenes, no payoff. Luckers had a good breakdown of where the plot might have gone, with Alviarin making a move against the hunters that allowed Verin to slip in under the radar and deliver her list of BA to Egwene. A good idea, that gives a payoff to both the hunters' and Verin's storylines. One of the things people seem to find most frustrating about the series is the meandering in the middle, the sense that the story is going nowhere and taking its bloody time getting there. KoD began the process of bringing things together, drawing towards a conclusion, and in doing so shows us that there is a reason to go down the path that was chosen, the things we see, the things we are told, they are there for a reason. And then you get the BA hunters and the "it doesn't matter, Verin saves the day anyway" ending that leaves you wondering what the point was. The plot as a whole is still strong, but there are a few niggles like this that could have been fixed and would have helped the final evaluation of the series no end if they had fixed them.

[PhoenixUK]

to be fair, the black ajah hunters aspect was not entirely invalid, they are the ones who thought of using the Oath Rod to undo and redo Oaths to truly be sure who is BA which Egwene uses to Purge the Aes Sedai of black sisters (although Verin tells egwene that verin was looking for the Oath Rod to do attempt to save herself, so maybe Egwene would have figured it out anyway). 

 

Re the headaches - I'm fairly sure Egwene still has some Dreams, although not nearly as many as she did before, but tbh how much help were her Dreams anyway? The only one which was of any use that i recall was the Seanchan attack on the Tower

[Rhienne]

to be fair, the black ajah hunters aspect was not entirely invalid, they are the ones who thought of using the Oath Rod to undo and redo Oaths to truly be sure who is BA which Egwene uses to Purge the Aes Sedai of black sisters (although Verin tells egwene that verin was looking for the Oath Rod to do attempt to save herself, so maybe Egwene would have figured it out anyway). 

 

Re the headaches - I'm fairly sure Egwene still has some Dreams, although not nearly as many as she did before, but tbh how much help were her Dreams anyway? The only one which was of any use that i recall was the Seanchan attack on the Tower

Was that the actual goal of Halima's infiltration of the rebel AS?  To prevent Egwene from having Dreams?  I can't remember that plot line very well, but if that is really all Halima aimed to do I think that makes him/her another example of a very weak Forsaken plot line.  I don't think any of the prophetic talents really helped anyone, and in fact they seemed to be more of a hindrance, e.g. Min's vision that the AS would serve him in Cairhien, and of course one of them was Black and ended up handing him to Semirhage, Elaida's mis-interpretation of her Foretelling, etc.  I don't see how it would help the Shadow to stop Egwene Dreaming.

[jedman67]

Halima/Aran'gar's job was most likely to use the rebellion to destroy the AS from the inside out. Originally she was supposed to manipulate (but not Compel, apparently) the leaders - and Egwene - to distract Elaida but never pose a serious threat. The nighttime killings were supposed to create fear and suspicion (as well as stamp out anyone who might be suspicious of her alleged relationship with Cabriana Mercandes [who was tortured to death by Semhirage]), and essentially tear apart the rebellion - much like Mesaana was doing with the Tower AS (by using Alviarin to manipulate Elaida).

Sheriam and Co. were tasked with delaying and equivocating in Salidar, so that eventually the rebellion would simply disintegrate and Elaida would be running a very lopsided WT that was not prepared for the Last Battle.

That Egwene proved to not be the "child puppet Amyrlin" that everyone expected was a sorely needed win for the Light Side, and a wrench in the gears for the Forsaken.

[PhoenixUK]

yes, Arangar's job was to use Sheriam and Delana to keep the rebels from defeating or conceding to Elaida thus keeping the Tower split, and therefore keep the White Tower from fighting the Last battle. 

[Rhienne]

Thanks, I really didn't remember all the AS stuff very well.  I guess that was actually quite effective then.  Is there any reason why she didn't want Egwene to have Dreams though?

[avernite]

Thanks, I really didn't remember all the AS stuff very well.  I guess that was actually quite effective then.  Is there any reason why she didn't want Egwene to have Dreams though?

Probably because it's a potential source of critical information. We have gotten a glimpse of Ishy having a serious desire to have all the prophecies he could get while spoiling them for everyone else.

 

As to the overall plot, I'm going to compare to some other big series I read, notably the Sword of Truth, Feist's riftwar (unfinished), Song of Ice and Fire (idem) and the Malazan Book of the Fallen.

 

 

 

What stands out to me, in WoT, is its general consistency of working towards one final point, with detours.

 

Feist's first book had such consistency, but he keeps losing it more and more with some books essentially completely irrelevant. Nice books, but not really a whole. He has a ton of books, admittedly, but not much more text than WoT.

Sword of Truth, whatever else its failings, detoured for most of the books. But the overarching goal of the series takes, IMO, too long to become apparent.

The other two suffer some back and forth and lack of clear purpose, but I find have more of a line (the overarching goal is not apparent initially, but it somehow feels more like a path to a conclusion even if you're not sure it's the conclusion of the series).

 

Compared to the MBotF I found the ending lacking. Maybe it's my Greek-inspired desire for linear time and specialness, but at the end of WoT I am left feeling like 'okay, WHY did you tell this story?' while in MBotF it feels more like there was progress. Not the only progress the world will ever have, but THIS problem at least seems fixed. As RJ made it out Padan Fain was somekind of special thing, and I had high hopes he'd show somehow why THIS turning was critical, or special, or anything, but it's really just a run-of-the-mill turning. Not even to me a clear insight into 'every next turning is somewhat different from the last, so that 100 turnings on they will be almost completely different'... if we swap all the names around the exact same story could seemingly occur in another turning.

However, WoT is a bit more coherent, and at least we can still specify where the timeline breaks down (ok, technically for MBotF you could say 'everywhere')

 

Compared to ASoIaF, WoT feels fairly feel-good, but it has a similar focus on humans breaking down mentally (and perhaps thereby dooming the physical world), rather than physically. AMoL somewhat harmed this, I found TGS a better ending in that sense. ASoIaF however has no end yet, so it might be a meandering mess getting nowhere or prove to be a single coherent story.

 

The other two I think are incomparable in a whole-story sense. Feist tells several whole stories in a framework (and the stories are, as a result, much simpler and more focused), so that's a different category. And SoT simply ignores too much reality, IMO, and focuses on great wars and stuff. I did think it had a similarly unsatisfying ending, as its problems to me seem like they could come right back.

 

And this list isn't exhaustive, feel free to add to them :)