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Demandred's Arc (Full Spoilers)


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I'll try and post the quote when I have AmoL in front of me later. It certainly didn't come across that way to me.

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Demandred says no one General could be facing him in such a manner that didn't have "centuries of experience". We know Demandred himself had roughly 10 years of experience with warfare so it really doesn't make any sense.

True, but we get similar quotes from forsaken throughout the series such as messana where egwene replies that most of your time was spent in peace or along those lines cant remember the exact quote. Demandred would still be the only General with experience with channelers vs channelers, as the other generals only had experience in the trolloc wars, the aiel war and the random civil wars. Which to be fair defending a city against an aiel attack would probably be alot more simpler then the war of power.

The problem lies in how it is portrayed - Demandred has a lot of experience of warfare, and probably more experience with large armies and with channelers in war than his opposites. Him thinking that the generals of today would never have commanded forces this big, which was a rare thing even in the AoL, makes sense. Him thinking that his single decade of experience could only possibly be matched by someone who has been doing it for hundreds of years is absurd.

>>@ Mr Ares

 

most of the arguments are point of view and oppinions on whether Demandreds character should change or not to change while you think it doesnt make sense it makes sense to me for it to change and like Moghedian said Shara had changed Demandred. Living in a different culture and surroundings for 2 years could change your perspective, thoughts etc, especially if your pointed out to be the saviour of the sharans which is what Demandred would have been if it wasnt for the Lews therin so he virtually had a dream come true in Shara so the rage towards Lews Therin would have built for taking that away in the age of legends, its all speculated this argument could go on for ever and the bottom line is he changed it was written into the books and all the wishing that his character didnt change wouldnt have changed that and i think it was more enetertaining that we had a powerful forsaken actually doing something no matter how crazy instead of others who wanted a general to sit back not channel and just direct the battle, which doesnt fit the character of a forsaken who is arrogant and believes himself to be the most powerful in the universe. The dark one would have directed him to take part in the battle.

It is true that wishing this book had been written properly won't change the reality of what we got, but so what? If we tried applying that to everything, then we'd never be ale to debate. And the problem with Demandred isn't that he changed, it's that the change happens for no reason. Look at the name of the thread: Demandred's Arc. Unfortunately, a good chunk of his arc is missing - we have a before and and after, but we don't see how or why he got from the one to the other, so it doesn't read as character development, it reads as character derailment. Now, you can invent to your hearts content, but it isn't in the book, and it should have been. If it was in River of Souls and got cut, then Harriet wasn't doing her job properly, and nor was Brandon. If it wasn't in their to begin with, then Harriet wasn't doing her job properly, and nor was Brandon. The out of character elements should have been picked up on and explained. They weren't.

Make Demandred not as powerful? i dont see how you want him to act dumb lose the strength as the 2nd most powerful channeler and not link with the 400+ channelers he brought with him and using sakarnan?

Actually, making him dumb is the very opposite of what I suggested. (I must mention the fact that when people think to argue with me without properly reading my posts it seldom ends well for them.) He was dumb already. When you make a character too powerful, it is difficult to kill them plausibly (or explain why they don't just solve all the problems immediately). A lot of the time this is dealt with by having them act stupidly, such as in Demandred's case. Making him not as powerful means that you don't have to make use of contrived stupidity to kill him - if he didn't have Sakarnen, if someone broke through to his command tent while his circle were busy elsewhere and he was directing the battle, if he was too busy fighting to use the OP (and he was not the second strongest channeler, by the way) it could be done. It has to be handled very carefully. If it isn't, you end up with a stupid villain who doesn't make use of the tools he has available and dies.

The strength of channeling was already broken from the beginning early on and was always going to be a problem coming up to the last battle. by robert jordans fight scenes and battles throughout earlier books Demandred should have leveled the lights armies by himself. Elza penfel in a circle with relative weak aes Sedai and Ashaman was able to reduce a cliff by 50ft and kill the forsaken posing as dashiva. If you used that level of power as a guide Demandred with sakarnan and a circle of 72 should have been able to demolish the whole heights by himself and is why they had him using balefire instead of destructive weaves so that the last battle wasnt just about channelers and added depth. Look at Rand he killed 100k trollocs with an angreal.

Elza was in a circle with Callandor. So the third most powerful male sa'angreal, an Asha'man and two AS were able to take the top off a hill. That's a hell of a detail to leave out. As for the strength of channeling, yes, it was always powerful. So what? Oh, right, it means that Demandred should have been able to use it, but instead he forgot. Balefire is a destructive weave, by the way. Just thought you might want to bear that in mind. Yes, Demandred should have been able to level the heights, and he spent a fair bit of time throwing out destructive weaves that killed thousands at a time - so why didn't he level the heights? Reducing the strength and numbers of channelers didn't add depth, it created problems. The channelers should have been occupied fighting other channelers, and thus unable to devote too much effort to slaughtering the troops. Instead, most of them decided that they would be better off staying at home during the LB. That presumably includes several thousand Ayyad as well, as well as plenty of the Shadow's other channelers. So as much time is spent slaughtering troops, but the conflict has been scaled down.

 

I dont see how Murandy would have been a subtle weapon, the heaviest of the foreshadowing happened in TOM and Amol prologue for Murandy and i think it was extremely clever how it was used as a red herring, but by the end of TOM we already knew Caemlyn was taken over by the trollocs and was already the subtle weapon in the heart as you say. So what would Murandy have achieved that Caemlyn did not for the shadow?

Murandy doesn't have the same numerical power as Shara - Shara is a very overt weapon. The point of Murandy as a weapon is that it is stealthy, subtle, a dagger next to the heart that you don't see coming, as opposed to the Sharan hammer blow you do. Again, read my posts (or just look up the definition of subtle). Taking over Caemlyn was the very opposite of a subtle weapon - it was a horde of Trollocs smashing a city. Compulsion on the Great Captains was a subtle weapon - they made mistakes that were individually minor, but which added up to a catastrophe and which few would see coming. Have Murandy do the same - the Murandians are in the wrong place, the Murandians leave a flank open, the Murandians are in the way. It's the same with Weiramon - he gives every impression of incompetence, but his failures are calculated, his stupidity a mask. Roedran himself was using the same trick, appearing stupid and dissolute, but actually competent. There was subtle foreshadowing for Murandy in books 8 and 9 - yes, it was explained, but it would have worked as well by being a Chosen taking over there. The question is not what Murandy would have achieved that Caemlyn didn't, but what it could achieve that the Compulsion of the Captains didn't? The idea is not to overwhelm your enemy with numbers, but to use Murandy to create a weak point, and throw your strength at those weakest points and break them.

 

Where did you get several thousand ayyad from? brandon said that Demandred hadnt convinced all the sharan forces to follow him, so thats why the other clans if you will stayed home. If you know there was more ayyad why ignore the fact that it was explained why the rest werent there? Caemlyn getting overtaken by the shadow wasnt subtle? news to me everyone in the wot universe must have seen it coming then right? Wrong it was a subtle taking of Caemlyn and marks the start of the last battle with the shadow taking the first attack. It was subtle and done the same way if roedran was demandred and used a waygate to get trollocs behind the lines. Heck say Demandred travelled to murandy with his sharans then stroke from behind the battle lines it would have be 10 more times more beneficial then being in murandy and would have the same suprise effect if not more. People were suspectful of armies turning on each other pre fom debate with people describing it the work of the dark one so if murandy attacked it wouldnt have been too unexpected with what a 10000 person army.

 

I thought the power scale of Robert jordans had Lews Therin and Demandred and ishammael as roughly the same? Since Ishammael lost died to rand in book 2 when he had little skill and not at his full strength i would put Demandreds skill as superior to his.

 

Your interpretation of channelers should be weaker in the final book when they already have a setting stone of power over 13 books is just weird and doesnt make sense. You can say Demandred was stupid all you want but your asking him to not be powerful when he has the tools to be, no matter how stupid he was his power level was set to a point that no channeler would be able to match him and you cant just sayd brandon shouldnt have let him be that strong cause you dont like it. The book is written the facts are there thats how strong he was you cant just say i dont want him to be that strong in an argument lol. The way Sauron was defeated in LOTR is alot like how Demandred died. Did you expect some other light sighted sorcer/wizard with the power of sauron to come and kill sauron.... Thats the whole point of the underdog story.

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@canu

 

The statement is still flat out wrong. Demandred never had "centuries" of experience with warfare so not sure why he uses that as the benchmark.

 

It's a hyperbolic statement by a megalomaniac with a three thousand year old grudge. It's like a tough guy talking crap before a fight and saying "You could chop of my leg and I'd still kick your ass." That's the way I read it.

thats how i read it to but suttree is right from what i remember he said "it takes centuries to build the subtle variations of battle the little steps in a battle" or along those lines. But i dont think we are suppose to take it as literal. Just like how all the choson consider themselves far above aes sedai they call them children when some of them Romanda and Cadsuane are nearly the same age. Messana says to egwene  ive been coming to TAR for over a 100 years and she then says funny you consider yourself superior when most of your time was spent in harmony where my time is full of chaos. Which is pretty much what demandred said if not more bluntly.

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Demandred says no one General could be facing him in such a manner that didn't have "centuries of experience". We know Demandred himself had roughly 10 years of experience with warfare so it really doesn't make any sense.

True, but we get similar quotes from forsaken throughout the series such as messana where egwene replies that most of your time was spent in peace or along those lines cant remember the exact quote. Demandred would still be the only General with experience with channelers vs channelers, as the other generals only had experience in the trolloc wars, the aiel war and the random civil wars. Which to be fair defending a city against an aiel attack would probably be alot more simpler then the war of power.

The problem lies in how it is portrayed - Demandred has a lot of experience of warfare, and probably more experience with large armies and with channelers in war than his opposites. Him thinking that the generals of today would never have commanded forces this big, which was a rare thing even in the AoL, makes sense. Him thinking that his single decade of experience could only possibly be matched by someone who has been doing it for hundreds of years is absurd.

>>>@ Mr Ares

 

most of the arguments are point of view and oppinions on whether Demandreds character should change or not to change while you think it doesnt make sense it makes sense to me for it to change and like Moghedian said Shara had changed Demandred. Living in a different culture and surroundings for 2 years could change your perspective, thoughts etc, especially if your pointed out to be the saviour of the sharans which is what Demandred would have been if it wasnt for the Lews therin so he virtually had a dream come true in Shara so the rage towards Lews Therin would have built for taking that away in the age of legends, its all speculated this argument could go on for ever and the bottom line is he changed it was written into the books and all the wishing that his character didnt change wouldnt have changed that and i think it was more enetertaining that we had a powerful forsaken actually doing something no matter how crazy instead of others who wanted a general to sit back not channel and just direct the battle, which doesnt fit the character of a forsaken who is arrogant and believes himself to be the most powerful in the universe. The dark one would have directed him to take part in the battle.

lockquote>

It is true that wishing this book had been written properly won't change the reality of what we got, but so what? If we tried applying that to everything, then we'd never be ale to debate. And the problem with Demandred isn't that he changed, it's that the change happens for no reason. Look at the name of the thread: Demandred's Arc. Unfortunately, a good chunk of his arc is missing - we have a before and and after, but we don't see how or why he got from the one to the other, so it doesn't read as character development, it reads as character derailment. Now, you can invent to your hearts content, but it isn't in the book, and it should have been. If it was in River of Souls and got cut, then Harriet wasn't doing her job properly, and nor was Brandon. If it wasn't in their to begin with, then Harriet wasn't doing her job properly, and nor was Brandon. The out of character elements should have been picked up on and explained. They weren't.

>Make Demandred not as powerful? i dont see how you want him to act dumb lose the strength as the 2nd most powerful channeler and not link with the 400+ channelers he brought with him and using sakarnan?

Actually, making him dumb is the very opposite of what I suggested. (I must mention the fact that when people think to argue with me without properly reading my posts it seldom ends well for them.) He was dumb already. When you make a character too powerful, it is difficult to kill them plausibly (or explain why they don't just solve all the problems immediately). A lot of the time this is dealt with by having them act stupidly, such as in Demandred's case. Making him not as powerful means that you don't have to make use of contrived stupidity to kill him - if he didn't have Sakarnen, if someone broke through to his command tent while his circle were busy elsewhere and he was directing the battle, if he was too busy fighting to use the OP (and he was not the second strongest channeler, by the way) it could be done. It has to be handled very carefully. If it isn't, you end up with a stupid villain who doesn't make use of the tools he has available and dies.

The strength of channeling was already broken from the beginning early on and was always going to be a problem coming up to the last battle. by robert jordans fight scenes and battles throughout earlier books Demandred should have leveled the lights armies by himself. Elza penfel in a circle with relative weak aes Sedai and Ashaman was able to reduce a cliff by 50ft and kill the forsaken posing as dashiva. If you used that level of power as a guide Demandred with sakarnan and a circle of 72 should have been able to demolish the whole heights by himself and is why they had him using balefire instead of destructive weaves so that the last battle wasnt just about channelers and added depth. Look at Rand he killed 100k trollocs with an angreal.

Elza was in a circle with Callandor. So the third most powerful male sa'angreal, an Asha'man and two AS were able to take the top off a hill. That's a hell of a detail to leave out. As for the strength of channeling, yes, it was always powerful. So what? Oh, right, it means that Demandred should have been able to use it, but instead he forgot. Balefire is a destructive weave, by the way. Just thought you might want to bear that in mind. Yes, Demandred should have been able to level the heights, and he spent a fair bit of time throwing out destructive weaves that killed thousands at a time - so why didn't he level the heights? Reducing the strength and numbers of channelers didn't add depth, it created problems. The channelers should have been occupied fighting other channelers, and thus unable to devote too much effort to slaughtering the troops. Instead, most of them decided that they would be better off staying at home during the LB. That presumably includes several thousand Ayyad as well, as well as plenty of the Shadow's other channelers. So as much time is spent slaughtering troops, but the conflict has been scaled down.

 

I dont see how Murandy would have been a subtle weapon, the heaviest of the foreshadowing happened in TOM and Amol prologue for Murandy and i think it was extremely clever how it was used as a red herring, but by the end of TOM we already knew Caemlyn was taken over by the trollocs and was already the subtle weapon in the heart as you say. So what would Murandy have achieved that Caemlyn did not for the shadow?

Murandy doesn't have the same numerical power as Shara - Shara is a very overt weapon. The point of Murandy as a weapon is that it is stealthy, subtle, a dagger next to the heart that you don't see coming, as opposed to the Sharan hammer blow you do. Again, read my posts (or just look up the definition of subtle). Taking over Caemlyn was the very opposite of a subtle weapon - it was a horde of Trollocs smashing a city. Compulsion on the Great Captains was a subtle weapon - they made mistakes that were individually minor, but which added up to a catastrophe and which few would see coming. Have Murandy do the same - the Murandians are in the wrong place, the Murandians leave a flank open, the Murandians are in the way. It's the same with Weiramon - he gives every impression of incompetence, but his failures are calculated, his stupidity a mask. Roedran himself was using the same trick, appearing stupid and dissolute, but actually competent. There was subtle foreshadowing for Murandy in books 8 and 9 - yes, it was explained, but it would have worked as well by being a Chosen taking over there. The question is not what Murandy would have achieved that Caemlyn didn't, but what it could achieve that the Compulsion of the Captains didn't? The idea is not to overwhelm your enemy with numbers, but to use Murandy to create a weak point, and throw your strength at those weakest points and break them.

 

Where did you get several thousand ayyad from? brandon said that Demandred hadnt convinced all the sharan forces to follow him, so thats why the other clans if you will stayed home. If you know there was more ayyad why ignore the fact that it was explained why the rest werent there? Caemlyn getting overtaken by the shadow wasnt subtle? news to me everyone in the wot universe must have seen it coming then right? Wrong it was a subtle taking of Caemlyn and marks the start of the last battle with the shadow taking the first attack. It was subtle and done the same way if roedran was demandred and used a waygate to get trollocs behind the lines. Heck say Demandred travelled to murandy with his sharans then stroke from behind the battle lines it would have be 10 more times more beneficial then being in murandy and would have the same suprise effect if not more. People were suspectful of armies turning on each other pre fom debate with people describing it the work of the dark one so if murandy attacked it wouldnt have been too unexpected with what a 10000 person army.

 

I thought the power scale of Robert jordans had Lews Therin and Demandred and ishammael as roughly the same? Since Ishammael lost died to rand in book 2 when he had little skill and not at his full strength i would put Demandreds skill as superior to his.

 

Your interpretation of channelers should be weaker in the final book when they already have a setting stone of power over 13 books is just weird and doesnt make sense. You can say Demandred was stupid all you want but your asking him to not be powerful when he has the tools to be, no matter how stupid he was his power level was set to a point that no channeler would be able to match him and you cant just sayd brandon shouldnt have let him be that strong cause you dont like it. The book is written the facts are there thats how strong he was you cant just say i dont want him to be that strong in an argument lol. The way Sauron was defeated in LOTR is alot like how Demandred died. Did you expect some other light sighted sorcer/wizard with the power of sauron to come and kill sauron.... Thats the whole point of the underdog story.

 

 

um you missed entirely the point about what he was saying about demandred's strength. the tools he had at his disposal were new elements added in this book, so the inherent problems with equipping him with that level of power should have been thought through and planned in the plot of said book. instead you have him equipped with the power to destroy the light's army, but not use it, which is why he just looks stupid and useless. another way of putting it is if you can't work out how to write a character with a 72 circle and sa'angreal with no morals or restrictions on using balefire *not* controllable and beatable in a way that doesn't seem utterly contrived then its time to rethink just how powerful you want to make him in the book and the good reasons for that, instead. sarkanen didn't exist before amol, you are therefore under no compunction to write it into the story.

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Demandred says no one General could be facing him in such a manner that didn't have "centuries of experience". We know Demandred himself had roughly 10 years of experience with warfare so it really doesn't make any sense.

True, but we get similar quotes from forsaken throughout the series such as messana where egwene replies that most of your time was spent in peace or along those lines cant remember the exact quote. Demandred would still be the only General with experience with channelers vs channelers, as the other generals only had experience in the trolloc wars, the aiel war and the random civil wars. Which to be fair defending a city against an aiel attack would probably be alot more simpler then the war of power.

 

 

The problem lies in how it is portrayed - Demandred has a lot of experience of warfare, and probably more experience with large armies and with channelers in war than his opposites. Him thinking that the generals of today would never have commanded forces this big, which was a rare thing even in the AoL, makes sense. Him thinking that his single decade of experience could only possibly be matched by someone who has been doing it for hundreds of years is absurd.

>>>>@ Mr Ares

 

most of the arguments are point of view and oppinions on whether Demandreds character should change or not to change while you think it doesnt make sense it makes sense to me for it to change and like Moghedian said Shara had changed Demandred. Living in a different culture and surroundings for 2 years could change your perspective, thoughts etc, especially if your pointed out to be the saviour of the sharans which is what Demandred would have been if it wasnt for the Lews therin so he virtually had a dream come true in Shara so the rage towards Lews Therin would have built for taking that away in the age of legends, its all speculated this argument could go on for ever and the bottom line is he changed it was written into the books and all the wishing that his character didnt change wouldnt have changed that and i think it was more enetertaining that we had a powerful forsaken actually doing something no matter how crazy instead of others who wanted a general to sit back not channel and just direct the battle, which doesnt fit the character of a forsaken who is arrogant and believes himself to be the most powerful in the universe. The dark one would have directed him to take part in the battle.

It is true that wishing this book had been written properly won't change the reality of what we got, but so what? If we tried applying that to everything, then we'd never be ale to debate. And the problem with Demandred isn't that he changed, it's that the change happens for no reason. Look at the name of the thread: Demandred's Arc. Unfortunately, a good chunk of his arc is missing - we have a before and and after, but we don't see how or why he got from the one to the other, so it doesn't read as character development, it reads as character derailment. Now, you can invent to your hearts content, but it isn't in the book, and it should have been. If it was in River of Souls and got cut, then Harriet wasn't doing her job properly, and nor was Brandon. If it wasn't in their to begin with, then Harriet wasn't doing her job properly, and nor was Brandon. The out of character elements should have been picked up on and explained. They weren't.

>>Make Demandred not as powerful? i dont see how you want him to act dumb lose the strength as the 2nd most powerful channeler and not link with the 400+ channelers he brought with him and using sakarnan?

Actually, making him dumb is the very opposite of what I suggested. (I must mention the fact that when people think to argue with me without properly reading my posts it seldom ends well for them.) He was dumb already. When you make a character too powerful, it is difficult to kill them plausibly (or explain why they don't just solve all the problems immediately). A lot of the time this is dealt with by having them act stupidly, such as in Demandred's case. Making him not as powerful means that you don't have to make use of contrived stupidity to kill him - if he didn't have Sakarnen, if someone broke through to his command tent while his circle were busy elsewhere and he was directing the battle, if he was too busy fighting to use the OP (and he was not the second strongest channeler, by the way) it could be done. It has to be handled very carefully. If it isn't, you end up with a stupid villain who doesn't make use of the tools he has available and dies.

The strength of channeling was already broken from the beginning early on and was always going to be a problem coming up to the last battle. by robert jordans fight scenes and battles throughout earlier books Demandred should have leveled the lights armies by himself. Elza penfel in a circle with relative weak aes Sedai and Ashaman was able to reduce a cliff by 50ft and kill the forsaken posing as dashiva. If you used that level of power as a guide Demandred with sakarnan and a circle of 72 should have been able to demolish the whole heights by himself and is why they had him using balefire instead of destructive weaves so that the last battle wasnt just about channelers and added depth. Look at Rand he killed 100k trollocs with an angreal.

Elza was in a circle with Callandor. So the third most powerful male sa'angreal, an Asha'man and two AS were able to take the top off a hill. That's a hell of a detail to leave out. As for the strength of channeling, yes, it was always powerful. So what? Oh, right, it means that Demandred should have been able to use it, but instead he forgot. Balefire is a destructive weave, by the way. Just thought you might want to bear that in mind. Yes, Demandred should have been able to level the heights, and he spent a fair bit of time throwing out destructive weaves that killed thousands at a time - so why didn't he level the heights? Reducing the strength and numbers of channelers didn't add depth, it created problems. The channelers should have been occupied fighting other channelers, and thus unable to devote too much effort to slaughtering the troops. Instead, most of them decided that they would be better off staying at home during the LB. That presumably includes several thousand Ayyad as well, as well as plenty of the Shadow's other channelers. So as much time is spent slaughtering troops, but the conflict has been scaled down.

 

I dont see how Murandy would have been a subtle weapon, the heaviest of the foreshadowing happened in TOM and Amol prologue for Murandy and i think it was extremely clever how it was used as a red herring, but by the end of TOM we already knew Caemlyn was taken over by the trollocs and was already the subtle weapon in the heart as you say. So what would Murandy have achieved that Caemlyn did not for the shadow?

Murandy doesn't have the same numerical power as Shara - Shara is a very overt weapon. The point of Murandy as a weapon is that it is stealthy, subtle, a dagger next to the heart that you don't see coming, as opposed to the Sharan hammer blow you do. Again, read my posts (or just look up the definition of subtle). Taking over Caemlyn was the very opposite of a subtle weapon - it was a horde of Trollocs smashing a city. Compulsion on the Great Captains was a subtle weapon - they made mistakes that were individually minor, but which added up to a catastrophe and which few would see coming. Have Murandy do the same - the Murandians are in the wrong place, the Murandians leave a flank open, the Murandians are in the way. It's the same with Weiramon - he gives every impression of incompetence, but his failures are calculated, his stupidity a mask. Roedran himself was using the same trick, appearing stupid and dissolute, but actually competent. There was subtle foreshadowing for Murandy in books 8 and 9 - yes, it was explained, but it would have worked as well by being a Chosen taking over there. The question is not what Murandy would have achieved that Caemlyn didn't, but what it could achieve that the Compulsion of the Captains didn't? The idea is not to overwhelm your enemy with numbers, but to use Murandy to create a weak point, and throw your strength at those weakest points and break them.

 

 

Where did you get several thousand ayyad from? brandon said that Demandred hadnt convinced all the sharan forces to follow him, so thats why the other clans if you will stayed home. If you know there was more ayyad why ignore the fact that it was explained why the rest werent there?

 

 

It wasn't explained in the book. And Brandon didn't explain all the other absent channelers or soldiers, so why should we give him the benefit of the doubt on this one point when his grasp of the numbers is consistently wrong? See, RJ was very good at keeping little details consistent - he knew how big the armies were, how many channelers there were, when event x happened in relation to event y, so if he says there are a certain number of channelers, you feel confident that there is a good reason why. When Brandon has most of the Light's channelers not show up, and sidelines every Shadow channeler but the Sharans, he damn sure better have a good explanation, and he doesn't. Even discounting the Ayyad, both sides should have far more channelers than were ever mentioned - thousands of Wise Ones disappeared, as did most of the Sea Folk, as manning the Bowl of Winds surely did not take all their forces; they would number several hundred at the least, and the only significant channeler contingent on the other side were the Sharans - there never seemed more than a handful of Red Veils (who have been captured and been breeding for centuries, if not millennia), BA, and Asha'man, either Darkfriend or turned, or Darkfriends in the other organisations (who apparently didn't exist at all). The numbers  don't add up. Were it the Ayyad alone, then it could be explained, but it's across all factions.

Caemlyn getting overtaken by the shadow wasnt subtle? news to me everyone in the wot universe must have seen it coming then right? Wrong it was a subtle taking of Caemlyn and marks the start of the last battle with the shadow taking the first attack. It was subtle and done the same way if roedran was demandred and used a waygate to get trollocs behind the lines. Heck say Demandred travelled to murandy with his sharans then stroke from behind the battle lines it would have be 10 more times more beneficial then being in murandy and would have the same suprise effect if not more. People were suspectful of armies turning on each other pre fom debate with people describing it the work of the dark one so if murandy attacked it wouldnt have been too unexpected with what a 10000 person army.

I see you didn't bother to check the definition of subtle. You see, taking over Caemlyn was unexpected, but having thousands of Trollocs rampage through and burn a city is in no way subtle. On the other hand, having a Great Captain make a series of minor mistakes which add up to a battle lost is. "Hard to grasp; not obvious or easily understood; barely noticeable." That's the definition. A barely noticeable influence that was almost disastrous is subtle, throwing thousands of Trollocs at a problem can be considered subtle in the same way as the Holocaust can be considered to subtly send out the message "we don't much care for Jews". Murandy attacking isn't what I said. Murandy not being where it is supposed to be, Murandy making mistakes, Murandy leaving the lines open and unprotected, these things are subtle. Letting thousands of Trollocs through a Waygate isn't, and so has about as much relevance to this discussion as what you have on your iPod playlist. Now, go away and come back when you are prepared to make the most basic concessions to a conversation - understanding what the other person is saying and responding to that.

I thought the power scale of Robert jordans had Lews Therin and Demandred and ishammael as roughly the same? Since Ishammael lost died to rand in book 2 when he had little skill and not at his full strength i would put Demandreds skill as superior to his.

LTT and Ishamael were equally strong. Aginor and Lanfear vied for second strongest Chosen. Therefore, Demandred is at most the fifth strongest channeler in the series, sixth if you count LTT and Rand as different people, and possibly lower still as we can't rank everyone.

Your interpretation of channelers should be weaker in the final book when they already have a setting stone of power over 13 books is just weird and doesnt make sense. You can say Demandred was stupid all you want but your asking him to not be powerful when he has the tools to be, no matter how stupid he was his power level was set to a point that no channeler would be able to match him and you cant just sayd brandon shouldnt have let him be that strong cause you dont like it. The book is written the facts are there thats how strong he was you cant just say i dont want him to be that strong in an argument lol. The way Sauron was defeated in LOTR is alot like how Demandred died. Did you expect some other light sighted sorcer/wizard with the power of sauron to come and kill sauron.... Thats the whole point of the underdog story.

Once again, you've decided to ignore my point and ramble on about something that has nothing to do with what I said. Channelers should not be weaker, I never suggested anything like that. amolcomments understood my point, so I can safely say that I am speaking comprehensible English. Demandred's strength in the OP cannot be taken away from him. But he has an army to back him, a lot of channelers around him, and a sa'angreal comparable in strength to Callandor. Only one of these was taken away from him at the end, so why didn't the soldiers or Ayyad around him stop Lan from getting to him? Or Galad (who they definitely tried to kill)? Why did they stand back and let him fight these duels? Why did he even bother fighting them? Demandred suddenly forgot how to do more than throw rocks at people. He has this immense power, so either he needs a good reason to not use it, or he looks like an idiot for not using it. The fact that he did blow significant chunks in the Light's army, but didn't do more because he was expecting LTT is somewhat reasonable. His desire to duel all and sundry, and the fact his army is so ineffective that seemingly anyone can pay him a visit to fight a duel or just have a cup of tea and a chat is not reasonable. If you have made a character so powerful that they cannot be plausibly defeated, then you have written yourself into a corner unless they win. Brandon did not cope well with Demandred's immense power. A much better job could have been done through the simple expedient of putting Lan under an Illusion to appear as Rand - you still need to get him into somewhere that Demandred will notice him, but they now have a reason to fight. And if "Rand" isn't channeling, then it is plausible that Demandred would pull back from giving himself the edge to prove that he was the better man. As it is, we had Demandred acting stupid, and in a way that is not true to the Demandred we have seen before, in order to bring about a contrived conclusion. A good writer would need to either have found a way to make him beatable at that strength, or rewrite him until he was not so strong he couldn't be plausibly beaten. But Demandred's arc was just another one that suffered from the lack of rewrites.

 

As for the comparisons to LotR, bear in mind that JRRT did rewrite, and that book did have and ending that made sense. Sauron's own blind spots were exploited, using the battle to draw his attention away from the Crack of Doom and allowing Frodo to sneak in under the radar. Even then, Frodo wasn't strong enough, and it took a stroke of luck (well, not so lucky for Gollum), or perhaps the hand of God, for the Ring to fall in. In other words, how Sauron was defeated wasn't that much like how Demandred was killed. It didn't take advantage of his blind spots, it just had him forget to use the OP to make things more dramatic.

 

And also, please learn how to break up your posts.

Edited by Mr Ares
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Demandred just throwing rocks at people is just part of the same symptom of terrible bad guys from basically book 3... maybe even 2. "They have the knowledge of the AOL!" but we never see anything totally revolutionary.

 

I've always thought the 2nd age channeling to 3rd age channeling should be like ye ol' english to english. They seem to use similar words but often you just can't quite make out wtf they're saying.

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I think there is too much "Monday morning quarterbacking" in this thread.  For one thing, we have no proof that Sukarnoe was equal to or more powerful than Callandor; if it wasn't, then Dem wouldn't be able to do as much damage anyway.  I think his hatred of Lews Therin made his ranting credible, and, even if he thought LTT was at the Bore, defeating LTT's forces could have distracted LTT from his battle with the DO.  As to the duels, it was simple arrogance on Dem's part, which bad guys have always exhibited.  I never liked the Murandy theory; it's way too small for a huge army.  I actually thought the army would come from the Land of Madmen, not Shara, but Shara's OK.

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As far as weak channelling goes, I think RJ built up his channellers' power too much.  If the channellers' power was at the earlier RJ books, there would be no role for oridinary troops, as they would just get slaughtered by enemy channellers, much like soldiers getting mowed down by machine guns in WWI.

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As far as weak channelling goes, I think RJ built up his channellers' power too much.  If the channellers' power was at the earlier RJ books, there would be no role for oridinary troops, as they would just get slaughtered by enemy channellers, much like soldiers getting mowed down by machine guns in WWI.

 

I agree with this point, RJ wrote himself in a corner and there were no good way out. Even if the AS, AM, WO etc. had fought only with the Dreadlords they could have been too dominant force in the battles. I think the same goes to the missing channellers as well. Nevertheless BS could have found a better solution for both problems.

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As far as weak channelling goes, I think RJ built up his channellers' power too much.  If the channellers' power was at the earlier RJ books, there would be no role for oridinary troops, as they would just get slaughtered by enemy channellers, much like soldiers getting mowed down by machine guns in WWI.

 

supposition. channelers counter other channelers - an example, the campaign against the seanchan in path of daggers, the opening of dumai's wells.

 

consider channellers like artillery in world war 1 - they move a unit to that spot, your soldiers start getting mowed down, you move your piece and take out theirs, suddenly your soldiers can surge through that spot. push your piece too far forward and its vulnerable. conversely if you can maneouvre your armies into a circumstance where its channellers vs nonchannellers, its a slaughter and you get a huge win. see - end of dumai's wells.

 

there's a constant theme running through these explanations to defend plot holes and flaws, which is a dearth of imagination or experience. its like if you as an individual can't think of how you would deal with this problem, therefore the book should be held to that same standard. the standard for a finale to a series with this history should not be the lowest common denominator

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As far as weak channelling goes, I think RJ built up his channellers' power too much.  If the channellers' power was at the earlier RJ books, there would be no role for oridinary troops, as they would just get slaughtered by enemy channellers, much like soldiers getting mowed down by machine guns in WWI.

 

This

 

 

 

As far as weak channelling goes, I think RJ built up his channellers' power too much.  If the channellers' power was at the earlier RJ books, there would be no role for oridinary troops, as they would just get slaughtered by enemy channellers, much like soldiers getting mowed down by machine guns in WWI.

 

I agree with this point, RJ wrote himself in a corner and there were no good way out. Even if the AS, AM, WO etc. had fought only with the Dreadlords they could have been too dominant force in the battles. I think the same goes to the missing channellers as well. Nevertheless BS could have found a better solution for both problems.

I dont see what he could have done besides making channelers extremely dumb and he actually made the Aes sedai smarter then what they were in previous books by actually using the Aes Sedai like Egwene initiated when brynn wanted to hold them back and actually using all the Angreal and SaAngreal. Unlike previously where robert jordan just had them permanetly dumb (see Luckers post on Aes Sedai)

 

Demandred just throwing rocks at people is just part of the same symptom of terrible bad guys from basically book 3... maybe even 2. "They have the knowledge of the AOL!" but we never see anything totally revolutionary.

 

I've always thought the 2nd age channeling to 3rd age channeling should be like ye ol' english to english. They seem to use similar words but often you just can't quite make out wtf they're saying.

This is what annoyed me throughout the series the forsaken acted dumb the whole time, never working together. Doing stupid things such as trying to go 1v1 with the dragon instead of a simple assasination or losing to rand when he has no knowledge of the power and wouldnt understand half of these special weaves from the age of legends we never saw. I hate how everything stupid they done was explained by forsaken being power hungry and greedy. They say Demandred was a dissapointment look at all the other forsaken. Belal, Aginor Belthamel, Lan Fear, Rahvin what did they truly achieve?

 

 For one thing, we have no proof that Sukarnoe was equal to or more powerful than Callandor; if it wasn't, then Dem wouldn't be able to do as much damage anyway.  I think his hatred of Lews Therin made his ranting credible, and, even if he thought LTT was at the Bore, defeating LTT's forces could have distracted LTT from his battle with the DO.  As to the duels, it was simple arrogance on Dem's part, which bad guys have always exhibited.  I never liked the Murandy theory; it's way too small for a huge army.  I actually thought the army would come from the Land of Madmen, not Shara, but Shara's OK.

Sorry but Land of Madmen makes even less sense then Shara if they were mad they would have just turned on Demandred and the shadow just like Lews Therin turned on his family when he was mad. The reasoning behind people thinking Sakarnen was more powerful then Callandor is Lan Fears quote that there are only 2 more powerful Saangreal then Callandor that she knows of. One being the choeden kal we assume that its Sakarnen and whenever the question was asked to RJ about the Saangreal i think the question was RAFO. So there is more evidence to say its stronger then there is to say its not.

Edited by NitroS
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I think there is too much "Monday morning quarterbacking" in this thread.  For one thing, we have no proof that Sukarnoe was equal to or more powerful than Callandor; if it wasn't, then Dem wouldn't be able to do as much damage anyway.  I think his hatred of Lews Therin made his ranting credible, and, even if he thought LTT was at the Bore, defeating LTT's forces could have distracted LTT from his battle with the DO.  As to the duels, it was simple arrogance on Dem's part, which bad guys have always exhibited.  I never liked the Murandy theory; it's way too small for a huge army.  I actually thought the army would come from the Land of Madmen, not Shara, but Shara's OK.

Whether or not Sakarnen is stronger than Callandor isn't important - it's a strong sa'angreal wielded by a strong channeler as part of a large circle - there should be a huge amount of the Power there, and given some of the displays we saw there was indeed a huge amount. The problem lies in how it was used. And why does Murandy need to provide a huge army? Demandred already has a massive army of Shadowspawn to command (given that he is the last of the Chosen to have served as a general, so absent the defection of a Great Captain he would be running it). Also, Be'lal and Sammael were generals too (and Semi as well, to a lesser extent), and those two also joined the Shadow for the same reason as Demandred. They went for Illian and Tear - the largest Westlands army is Andor's, and that country fell to Rahvin, a man who made his conquests by diplomacy rather than war. So why does Demandred need to be in Shara? Maybe he's compensating for something? You know what they say about men with big armies, nudge nudge, wink wink. The only reason to guess Shara is that it would make for a bigger surprise than Murandy, and the Land of Madmen wasn't in the books so is cheating on the part of the author.

 

As far as weak channelling goes, I think RJ built up his channellers' power too much.  If the channellers' power was at the earlier RJ books, there would be no role for oridinary troops, as they would just get slaughtered by enemy channellers, much like soldiers getting mowed down by machine guns in WWI.

Both sides have channelers though. As has been said before, and more than once, channelers can be used to counter the channelers of the other side.

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The solution would have been very simple IMO, increase the size of the Trolloc Armies. 

 

Let's say the Light forces had 10,000 channelers and the Dark only 2,000, instead of hiding the Light numbers and the Power of the chanelers, Brandon could have easily increased the size of the Trolloc Hordes many fold. An army of 10-20+ million Trollocs.  Why not.  Not like the channelers can keep up the attacks after destroying several million...they get tired just like doing physical work.

 

We never get a true estimate of the Trolloc armies in the entire series, only that they far outnumbered the Light forces in the Trolloc Wars.  In the EoTW Ishamael was hardly concerned when Rand destroyed that massive Trolloc Army.  So pretty much any number would have been fine for the Trolloc Hordes in order to compensate for the Light having far greater number of channelers. 

 

 

Callandor vs. Sarkanen:

I suppose Sarkanen is techincally stronger than Callandor, but Callandor has no buffer, that is why at one point, Logain stated that Rand was wielding more saidin than at the Cleansing.

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The problem with that is Rand would only be able to do it once. He would be able to outmatch Demandred for power with Callandor, but he would then be burned out or dead from drawing so much of the power, leaving him useless against the DO/ whoever was left. 

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The problem with that is Rand would only be able to do it once. He would be able to outmatch Demandred for power with Callandor, but he would then be burned out or dead from drawing so much of the power, leaving him useless against the DO/ whoever was left. 

 

Possibly.  I think the Power level of both sa'angreal are quite close, either way, he would be far too tired from the battle to face Shai'tan.  That is the problem of building up Demandred for many books and giving him too many tools. 

 

Only a lucky few Forsaken had angreal and Aginor stated at the Cleansing that Callandor would make him supreme.  Little strange that Demandred would be able to ferret that sa'angreal. 

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The problem with that is Rand would only be able to do it once. He would be able to outmatch Demandred for power with Callandor, but he would then be burned out or dead from drawing so much of the power, leaving him useless against the DO/ whoever was left. 

 

Hypothetically, wouldn't that have created a level of drama and pathos that was otherwise missing from AMOL? I'm a sucker for melodrama, I guess that's why i love the wot so much. Rand throws everything at Demandred to defeat him, perhaps using a symbolic circle of asha'man and aes sedai that ropes in all of the major channellers and takes them out of the conventional battlefield. The power of gods is thrown across the field of merrilor as these two huge circles and sa'angreal clash. Standing over Demandred's smoking crater, weakened and drained of the Power, Rand feels the Dark One's hand rising from Shayol Ghul. His plan to break the seals at the time of his choosing is ruined; the shadow's plan has come to fruition. The seals have been broken by the thief, the Shadow has weakened him at the critical moment and and he's already given everything, he can barely channel, let alone wield a sa'angreal as dangerous as callandor. But now he is out of time and he alone must turn his bloody footprints towards the dark mountain, save for the two women he trusts above all others in the world.

 

Instead Rand went to the DO fresh as a daisy, had a few tilts with Moridin then slapped the DO around with almost contemptible ease and that was tarmon gai'don. Sorry I know this is the Demandred thread and I digress.

Edited by amolcomments
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The problem with that is Rand would only be able to do it once. He would be able to outmatch Demandred for power with Callandor, but he would then be burned out or dead from drawing so much of the power, leaving him useless against the DO/ whoever was left. 

 

Possibly.  I think the Power level of both sa'angreal are quite close, either way, he would be far too tired from the battle to face Shai'tan.  That is the problem of building up Demandred for many books and giving him too many tools. 

 

Only a lucky few Forsaken had angreal and Aginor stated at the Cleansing that Callandor would make him supreme.  Little strange that Demandred would be able to ferret that sa'angreal. 

he didnt have sakarnen at the cleansing so he must have found it somewhere in Shara or a stasis box since, ishy wasnt able to find out with all his time loose on the world.

 

 

The problem with that is Rand would only be able to do it once. He would be able to outmatch Demandred for power with Callandor, but he would then be burned out or dead from drawing so much of the power, leaving him useless against the DO/ whoever was left. 

 

Hypothetically, wouldn't that have created a level of drama and pathos that was otherwise missing from AMOL? I'm a sucker for melodrama, I guess that's why i love the wot so much. Rand throws everything at Demandred to defeat him, perhaps using a symbolic circle of asha'man and aes sedai that ropes in all of the major channellers and takes them out of the conventional battlefield. The power of gods is thrown across the field of merrilor as these two huge circles and sa'angreal clash. Standing over Demandred's smoking crater, weakened and drained of the Power, Rand feels the Dark One's hand rising from Shayol Ghul. His plan to break the seals at the time of his choosing is ruined; the shadow's plan has come to fruition. The seals have been broken by the thief, the Shadow has weakened him at the critical moment and and he's already given everything, he can barely channel, let alone wield a sa'angreal as dangerous as callandor. But now he is out of time and he alone must turn his bloody footprints towards the dark mountain, save for the two women he trusts above all others in the world.

 

Instead Rand went to the DO fresh as a daisy, had a few tilts with Moridin then slapped the DO around with almost contemptible ease and that was tarmon gai'don. Sorry I know this is the Demandred thread and I digress.

that wouldnt have made sense though. He knows that his fight is with the Dark  one and not Demandred you would have to dumb down rands character into stupidity for that to work.

 

Be'lal and Sammael were generals too (and Semi as well, to a lesser extent), and those two also joined the Shadow for the same reason as Demandred. They went for Illian and Tear - the largest Westlands army is Andor's, and that country fell to Rahvin, a man who made his conquests by diplomacy rather than war. So why does Demandred need to be in Shara? Maybe he's compensating for something? You know what they say about men with big armies, nudge nudge, wink wink. The only reason to guess Shara is that it would make for a bigger surprise than Murandy, and the Land of Madmen wasn't in the books so is cheating on the part of the author.

 

That is why Shara made sense RJ avoided the obvious and used red herrings throughout the series. Its like lans ending in TOM. It was built up to be a death so obvious that he obviously was going to be saved i dont think any serious fan thought Lan was going to die in the opening battle at the gap it was way too obvious just like the murandy thing and everyone agrees wouldnt have been effective at all compared to what shara brought to the table.

 

ps why are you comparing sammael in illian as an equal power to a nation of channelers and a huge army bigger then illians without channelers its called being logical. Shara would have been a bigger impact then sammael, rahvin and belals armies put together. The only smart forsaken on lands to take were Semi who went for seanchan who had access to channelers, Messana who went for the white tower channelers and Demandred/ Taim who went for the Black tower channelers. None of the other armies would have compared just because channelers were made too strong in the beginning of the series.  Illians army would have been destroyed easily by any one of those nations.

Edited by NitroS
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 It was built up to be a death so obvious that he obviously was going to be saved i dont think any serious fan thought Lan was going to die in the opening battle at the gap it was way too obvious just like the murandy thing and everyone agrees wouldnt have been effective at all compared to what shara brought to the table.

Who is everyone?

 

Also it is somewhat hilarious all of a sudden trying to claim Murandy was "way too obvious". The hints for that country were very subtle, the hints for Shara non-existent. As for Lan the whole "just kidding" card was played three times with his death. Just terribly blunt and repetitive plot work.

 

The other issues here is it pretty much came down to light v. shara not light v. shadow. It was not handled well, just super blunt. As Mr Ares said earlier very Raymond Feist esque and that is certainly not ever something you want to hear about the WoT.

Edited by Suttree
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The problem with that is Rand would only be able to do it once. He would be able to outmatch Demandred for power with Callandor, but he would then be burned out or dead from drawing so much of the power, leaving him useless against the DO/ whoever was left. 

 

Possibly.  I think the Power level of both sa'angreal are quite close, either way, he would be far too tired from the battle to face Shai'tan.  That is the problem of building up Demandred for many books and giving him too many tools. 

 

Only a lucky few Forsaken had angreal and Aginor stated at the Cleansing that Callandor would make him supreme.  Little strange that Demandred would be able to ferret that sa'angreal. 

he didnt have sakarnen at the cleansing so he must have found it somewhere in Shara or a stasis box since, ishy wasnt able to find out with all his time loose on the world.

 

The problem with that is Rand would only be able to do it once. He would be able to outmatch Demandred for power with Callandor, but he would then be burned out or dead from drawing so much of the power, leaving him useless against the DO/ whoever was left. 

 

Hypothetically, wouldn't that have created a level of drama and pathos that was otherwise missing from AMOL? I'm a sucker for melodrama, I guess that's why i love the wot so much. Rand throws everything at Demandred to defeat him, perhaps using a symbolic circle of asha'man and aes sedai that ropes in all of the major channellers and takes them out of the conventional battlefield. The power of gods is thrown across the field of merrilor as these two huge circles and sa'angreal clash. Standing over Demandred's smoking crater, weakened and drained of the Power, Rand feels the Dark One's hand rising from Shayol Ghul. His plan to break the seals at the time of his choosing is ruined; the shadow's plan has come to fruition. The seals have been broken by the thief, the Shadow has weakened him at the critical moment and and he's already given everything, he can barely channel, let alone wield a sa'angreal as dangerous as callandor. But now he is out of time and he alone must turn his bloody footprints towards the dark mountain, save for the two women he trusts above all others in the world.

 

Instead Rand went to the DO fresh as a daisy, had a few tilts with Moridin then slapped the DO around with almost contemptible ease and that was tarmon gai'don. Sorry I know this is the Demandred thread and I digress.

that wouldnt have made sense though. He knows that his fight is with the Dark  one and not Demandred you would have to dumb down rands character into stupidity for that to work.

 

 

as opposed to dumbing down demandred's character into stupidity which you are fine with? in either case i'm not wedded to the idea. it was a throwaway attempt to illustrate how you can deal with a villain that powerful that fits into the story and doesn't require the villain to be brain-dead. the point which you're continuously failing to pick up on is you don't have to make anyone be stupid or weak beyond reason, you just have to think and plan your story well not just ignore the problem.

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Yeah right, if I am Rand al`Thor, then I sure as heck would want to waste my time and energies fighting Demandred :rolleyes: even though everything that I had learned proved to me that defeating the Dark One is the reason that the Dragon was Reborn.

Edited by Vambram
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Yeah right, if I am Rand al`Thor, then I sure as heck would want to waste my time and energies fighting Demandred :rolleyes: even though everything that I had learned proved to me that defeating the Dark One is the reason that the Dragon was Reborn.

 

glad you admit it! shame demandred seemed to think otherwise...oh wait that's what everyone who thinks demandred wasn't a total idiot has been saying is fine from the start of this thread

Edited by amolcomments
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Demandred was insane with jealousy. It was his own jealousy towards LTT which was critical in him choosing the Dark One over the Light. It was Demandred's own insane jealousy which drove him to see LTT's actions in the generalship of Mat Cauthon. It was the insane jealousy of Demandred who not only wanted, .. on his own terms, .. prove that he was better than LTT, but also wanted to be the only one who killed the Dragon Reborn.

 

Insane jealousy can do a lot to foul up a person's judgment, as was proven by Demandrod.

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Demandred was insane with jealousy. It was his own jealousy towards LTT which was critical in him choosing the Dark One over the Light. It was Demandred's own insane jealousy which drove him to see LTT's actions in the generalship of Mat Cauthon. It was the insane jealousy of Demandred who not only wanted, .. on his own terms, .. prove that he was better than LTT, but also wanted to be the only one who killed the Dragon Reborn.

 

Insane jealousy can do a lot to foul up a person's judgment, as was proven by Demandrod.

 

demandred was insane in amol in the way that a b-movie villain is insane; perfectly rational except when you need to explain away some stupid action such as leaving the hero alone in the inescapable deathtrap or building his doomsday device with a self-destruct button, then he's insane.

 

you both admit rand would be stupid to fight demandred when he is born to fight the dark one, or that he needs to conserve all his strength to fight the dark one. but you also state that its fine that demandred, alone of everyone in the entire world, believes otherwise. insanity is not a synonym for stupidity

Edited by amolcomments
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Demandred was insane with jealousy. It was his own jealousy towards LTT which was critical in him choosing the Dark One over the Light. It was Demandred's own insane jealousy which drove him to see LTT's actions in the generalship of Mat Cauthon. It was the insane jealousy of Demandred who not only wanted, .. on his own terms, .. prove that he was better than LTT, but also wanted to be the only one who killed the Dragon Reborn.

 

Insane jealousy can do a lot to foul up a person's judgment, as was proven by Demandrod.

 

demandred was insane in amol in the way that a b-movie villain is insane; perfectly rational except when you need to explain away some stupid action such as leaving the hero alone in the inescapable deathtrap or building his doomsday device with a self-destruct button, then he's insane.

 

you both admit rand would be stupid to fight demandred when he is born to fight the dark one, or that he needs to conserve all his strength to fight the dark one. but you also state that its fine that demandred, alone of everyone in the entire world, believes otherwise. insanity is not a synonym for stupidity

From Dem's POV, if Rand is at SG, but gets distracted, then the DO wins.  And there were times in Rand's dialogue with the DO when Rand did become distracted by events in the battles.

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