Demandred's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[smileyman]

 

I find it odd that people think Demandred didn't display great generalship in the Last Battle. Sure we didn't see much commanding from his POV, but we saw plenty of his commands from the POV of the Light. 

 

The armies were being pushed back and annihilated at every turn thanks to the Compulsion laid on the great generals (which was a brilliant masterstroke). He had spies placed highly in the Seanchan ranks, and I'm sure he had spies placed highly in the other armies as well. 

 

Sure he didn't take the sa'angreal and the circle and wipe out the entire army of the light, but why? That's not at all what he wants to do. It might be the goal of Moridin, who wants complete and utter destruction, but Demandred wants two things. A.) Defeat LTT, and B.) Rule.

 

Destroying the entire army would not let him accomplish A, and if he burns himself out by channeling too much, he doesn't accomplish either A or B. I don't think Demandred had anywhere near the kind of mojo to wipe out an entire army. 

I think the compulsion on the generals was absolutely brilliant. But that was Graendal, not Demandred. I'm not sure how much they were communicating..if at all. Graendal had to have known Rand was at Shayol Ghul. Slayer did. Someone was sending those disguised people after Rand that Thom kept killing. So wouldn't she tell Dem if they were communicating?

 

But anyway...he was still a complete idiot. Yelling his challenges like a 4 year old. Completely against his established character. The duels were stupid. Especially the one against Lan. Which raises a question. I'm by no means an expert  on WOT..but Dem thinks for a moment that Lan is Rand. Can male channelers not sense the ability to channel in other males? I guess not? In any event, to die because he was too stupid to let the Sharan step in and help was beyond idiotic. That is not what a great general would do. A great general leads. A great general wins...at whatever cost.

 

Dem was an arrogant, selfish fool and he died because of it. And the whole thing with this woman he apparently loves...that came out of nowhere, developed into nothing, and lead nowhere. Maybe he just lost his mind or something, because there's really no explaining his actions, as it goes against his very nature that we've been shown up until then.

 

Demandred was the overall commander of the battle. There was no way that Graendal was doing the Compulsion without supervision from Demandrad, not when the orders coincided with the perfect counter plan from his side. The important thing about the Shayol Ghul battle is to remember the time difference between there and the rest of the world. The further out from SG you go the greater the difference. Rand attacked SG right after the conference. There was no reason for Demandred to think that Rand was still locked in battle there, all this time later. 

 

That's point #1 as to why Demandred thought Rand was there. Point 2 was the organization of the battle itself. From Demandred's POV we get the thought that there was no way a modern general could have organized this and fought so well. Of course he has no idea about Mat's memories. 

 

Point 3 is Gawyn. Demandred thinks that Gawyn is attacking using a weave known only to the Age of Legends, not knowing that it's a ter'angeal. 

 

Point 4 is Demandre's knowledge of LTT, which says that LTT would be leading the Army of Light from the front, not off somewhere else (not knowing that Rand is not just LTT reborn).

 

Yeah it's stupid of Demandred to just let some random person challenge him, but he's got an obsession with his personal honor. He prides himself now on his sword play, and wants to defeat LTT mano y mano. His personal pride won't let anybody else beat him in a one on one duel. He won't go out and seek that duel (unless it's LTT), but if it comes he won't turn it down. Especially if it's someone close to Rand. And you're right it is selfish of Dem and it is arrogant, but that's what the Forsaken are--they're selfish and arrogant and Demandred was one of the most arrogant of all the Forsaken (and that's saying quite a bit). I also think his copious use of the True Power was affecting his sanity, plus the adoration of an entire continent would make him lose focus. Rand displayed similar obsession with personal combat until he fixed his memories, so it's not exactly surprising that a Forsaken would be even worse.

 

As for the whole love plot thing? That didn't make any sense at all to me either. 

[Guest Zsa]

First, I'd like to say I really enjoyed AMoL very much, since it was packed, as opposed to other books in the series - CoT comes to mind.

 

However, Demandred did dissapoint me, and it probably will dissapoint most people who don't force themselves to do serious mental gymnastics in order to try and fit all the pieces together. And here are some of the things that really irked me:

1. The Sharan army is winked into existance out of nowhere - no plot line, no arc, nothing. Meanwhile, I have to sit through three books and hear Perrin whine and moan about his wife and how he's trying to save her. By the second book, I wished Faile would just die, or Perrin, so we can be done with those stupid, no-plot-advancement, no-char-development,no-nothing chapters.

 

2. The fact that Demandred did not know Randy was at SG. I mean come on, I've read some of the mental gymnastics people do - Oh, it's the Chosen, they don't communicate etc. I'm sorry but that is simply bull. D-man here, the leader of the sharan pack, had twitter-style-up-to-date-information on all troop movements that Matt made from Moghedien. Graendal was messing with the minds of the generals - including Mr. Gareth if you remember, and ITURALDE. She had to COORDINATE with Dman and the other shadow armies in order to spring those traps. I mean common...

 

3. Demandred is portrayed like an idiot in some scenes. I mean, you're the general of an army, and yet you fight 1 on 1 against some nobodies, and not once, but three times in a row.That means he is a very shitty general and not very smart.

 

4. You have a sa'angreal as powerful as callandor and you are linked to a full circle, yet all you do is shoot some lasers and talk angry in a megaphone. This sounds like an episode of Power Rangers, not an adult oriented fantasy novel.

[papertiger]

I didn't care for the parallel with Demandred/Ishamael getting worked by a hero who's willing to sacrifice himself.

 

I also didn't care for the Sharan love interest, which felt tacked on to illustrate and magnify his hatred for LTT (which I already felt was justified)

 

That being said, Demandred did what no other Forsaken could but which every Forsaken should have done: he put his Big Boy pants on and conquered a people, got his gear in order, and BEAT a ta'veren in a battle of tactics.

 

He was exactly what I wanted out of a Forsaken; larger-than-life, completely willing to tear apart his enemies and consumed by feelings he can only address on his own terms.

[myifanw]

I'm not really getting the whole "Demandred's character was ruined" thing. He had no established character, besides being LLT's second. He was just hidden the whole time.

 

Anyway, it seems clear that Demandred's little tidbits about adventures in Shara are meant to parallel what Rand did in randland. You can basically imagine him doing the same things. He found a lover, conquered, and found the (second, ha) most powerful Sa'Angreal.

 

After all that, he decided it was finally time to show LLT who was number one after all, challenging him 1 on 1, leading his army to crush LLT's... even though Rand already moved on. Fitting.

[orient]

I think Demandred can be forgiven for a lot of his stupid assumptions if you consider that he thinks he knows Rand's character inside out. His main mistake is thinking that Rand is exactly like Lews Therin. We're told time and again that LTT was pretty darned arrogant, and that he was precisely the sort of person who would insist on leading the largest army rather than organising a sneak attack on Shayol Ghul while trusting someone else to lead the main fight elsewhere. Rand almost did exactly that anyway - Moiraine talked him out of it earlier on in the book.

 

All that crazy shouting and random blasts in the battle were also part of an attempt to draw Rand out, again, based on the same assumption that Rand would respond to the taunts in the same way that Lews Therin would have. Just a few books before, those tactics would easily have worked too - Rand would have fought him one on one in the same way that he did with other Forsaken. Based on that expectation it's pretty understandable that he didn't fry the entire army with his sa'angreal as well - he did want to save his strength after all.

 

So yeah, I don't think it's entirely Demandred's fault that he failed so badly at predicting what Rand would have done. Pre-epiphany Rand would have fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

 

I can't rationalise away the sword duels bit though. That part was just weird.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Could be mistaken, but I thought it was a little odd that Demandred wasn't using a sword wrought of the power?

Not a power-wrought sword, like Lan's or Rand's, but like way back in tDR where Rand himself would just create one, and we see similar with Be'lal, when the those two characters duel in the Stone.

...Chalk it up to yet another detail skimped, I suppose - Though admittedly, it's not something so paramount to be beyond being something a little odd.

[AndyB]

I can't rationalise away the sword duels bit though. That part was just weird.

 

Wasn't the entire reason that Demandred went Dark to prove that he was better than LTT at something?  I thought he kept fighting people on their terms on the off chance that one of them was LTT in disguise, and by killing them he would finally prove his superiority.

 

Apparently “living well is the best revenge” was not a saying any male Forsaken has ever heard.  Or even “drinking wine from the skull of your enemy, regardless of who killed him or how, is the best revenge.”

[orient]

I thought he kept fighting people on their terms on the off chance that one of them was LTT in disguise, and by killing them he would finally prove his superiority.

 

Fair enough, yeah. I just thought it was a bit weird, given that (I thought) he was quite certain Gawyn and Galad at least weren't LTT even before they started fighting.

 

In my head at least, the 'proper' Demandred response would be - 'You are not Lews Therin, so I don't care who you are.' *balefire*

[AndyB]

 

I thought he kept fighting people on their terms on the off chance that one of them was LTT in disguise, and by killing them he would finally prove his superiority.

 

Fair enough, yeah. I just thought it was a bit weird, given that (I thought) he was quite certain Gawyn and Galad at least weren't LTT even before they started fighting.

 

In my head at least, the 'proper' Demandred response would be - 'You are not Lews Therin, so I don't care who you are.' *balefire*

 

Well in Galad's case it wouldn't have worked 'cause of the amulet.  The fight with Gawyn seemed more like Demandred taking some R&R; blasting the landscape and shouting has to take it out of you.  Still, I agree that it's silly to put together a massive army then have that army ignore threats to you.  That sort of high-handed arrogance is a little cliche, and would have been more tolerable if every single one of the Forsaken wasn't susceptible to it.  I guess they didn't have the Evil Overlord list in the Age of Legends either.

[Hrothgordo]

As I stated in the "Quality" thread, I really think most of Demandred's decisions as a general were idiotic.

 

He immiediately lost credibility when he performed in the first duel, something Thom told us was asinine when describing a legend about Hawkwing supposedly fighting a hundred duels.  By the time we get to the third duel it had moved from stupid to cartoonish.

 

 

 

In regards to actual tactics he doesn't come off much better.

 

Demandred desires and the DO's orders are to kill Rand, which means the best place for him to be is at SG.  Rand has to come there.

 

 

 

He starts the book utilizing a worthwhile tactic in his attack on Caemlyn; a move that would cause distraction amongst the Light, destroy supply lines and possibly goad Rand into attacking him (not to mention fuel the loss of hope the DO wants).

 

His next move is a multi-pronged invasion.  Okay, we are looking good but we still have 600 more pages of battle to go.

 

The 4 Generals are corrupted, which again is pretty good strategy.  (Although it breaks a number of the rules we have been taught about both Compulsion and the warder bond, but that's another topic).

 

His next move should be to continue his invasion and raid city after city.  This would either crush the Light-side army through attrition or force them to attack the Dark-side army directly.

 

Instead Demandred not only allows Mat to retreat but then abandons the invasion to fight in a location chosen by his enemy.  Brilliant . . . not so much.

 

 

The argument that he is convinced that Rand is with the army makes no sense.  Let's say the spy network has somehow failed to report that Mat is in charge of the army, at some point you need to admit that he isn't going to fight you to defend the Light-side army (I figure this would have set in sometime after you slaughtered most of the Bodrerlanders).

 

 

[morkhon]

 

Demandred was the overall commander of the battle. There was no way that Graendal was doing the Compulsion without supervision from Demandrad, not when the orders coincided with the perfect counter plan from his side. The important thing about the Shayol Ghul battle is to remember the time difference between there and the rest of the world. The further out from SG you go the greater the difference. Rand attacked SG right after the conference. There was no reason for Demandred to think that Rand was still locked in battle there, all this time later. 

You're making the argument that Dem thought the battle between Rand and the DO was over?

[mbuehner]

Demandred knew his lackey had the seals to the dark ones prison. He would have found it implausible that Rand would confront the Dark One without recovering them, hence he had a pretty good reason to think LTT would have to come to Merrillor. It was a masterstroke of daring by Rand to enter the Pit of Doom without them or really any clear idea who or how they would be recovered. It was a total act of faith in his allies, something Demandred would never dream of doing. His lack of imagination was his undoing (sorta Sauron like incidentally).

[Luckers]

As I stated in the "Quality" thread, I really think most of Demandred's decisions as a general were idiotic.

 

He immiediately lost credibility when he performed in the first duel, something Thom told us was asinine when describing a legend about Hawkwing supposedly fighting a hundred duels.  By the time we get to the third duel it had moved from stupid to cartoonish.

 

 

 

In regards to actual tactics he doesn't come off much better.

 

Demandred desires and the DO's orders are to kill Rand, which means the best place for him to be is at SG.  Rand has to come there.

 

 

 

He starts the book utilizing a worthwhile tactic in his attack on Caemlyn; a move that would cause distraction amongst the Light, destroy supply lines and possibly goad Rand into attacking him (not to mention fuel the loss of hope the DO wants).

 

His next move is a multi-pronged invasion.  Okay, we are looking good but we still have 600 more pages of battle to go.

 

The 4 Generals are corrupted, which again is pretty good strategy.  (Although it breaks a number of the rules we have been taught about both Compulsion and the warder bond, but that's another topic).

 

His next move should be to continue his invasion and raid city after city.  This would either crush the Light-side army through attrition or force them to attack the Dark-side army directly.

 

Instead Demandred not only allows Mat to retreat but then abandons the invasion to fight in a location chosen by his enemy.  Brilliant . . . not so much.

 

 

The argument that he is convinced that Rand is with the army makes no sense.  Let's say the spy network has somehow failed to report that Mat is in charge of the army, at some point you need to admit that he isn't going to fight you to defend the Light-side army (I figure this would have set in sometime after you slaughtered most of the Bodrerlanders).

 

The worst part of all this was that Brandon was warned his plans for Demandred re: using his supposed insane hatred of Rand as the driving principle in explaining his stupidity were highly OOC after tGS where his insistance that only he be the one to kill Rand was met clearly with a fan response point out how far this diverged from his earlier depictions. Rather than accept this and adjust the plotwork, all that was done to correct the issue was slap a bandage on it by having Moghedien observe to the reader that Demandred had changed, his hatred for Rand for some reason grown more personal.

 

That's the problem with Brandon's response to criticism. He doesn't take is as criticism, he tries to explain why he was never wrong in the first place.

[smileyman]

 

 

Demandred was the overall commander of the battle. There was no way that Graendal was doing the Compulsion without supervision from Demandrad, not when the orders coincided with the perfect counter plan from his side. The important thing about the Shayol Ghul battle is to remember the time difference between there and the rest of the world. The further out from SG you go the greater the difference. Rand attacked SG right after the conference. There was no reason for Demandred to think that Rand was still locked in battle there, all this time later. 

You're making the argument that Dem thought the battle between Rand and the DO was over?

 

Possibly. Or he thought that the battle hadn't been fought yet, or that someone else was thinking it. 

[Magus sedai]

There are some good points bring made for both sides, but we should keep in mind that only moridin knew everything, it shows in there last meeting that nobody had a clue where and what Lanfear was doing, he gave Demandred Moghedien to watch what he no longer could that being the seanchan all coordinated plans ended with the general scheme. Why would he think LTT was there where else could he be not at the bore where the light was losing badly I might add, he had to be at the FOM that's where all the heavy hitters were the leaders of both towers Lan all kings and queens except the king of tear plus the darkside could not see rand for most of the book only moridin and lanfear knew

[Magus sedai]

We should also keep in mind that every forsaken made the same mistake even Moridin before he was brought back, they all assume he's the same man just like they hadn't changed

[wotfan4472]

Compared to Sammael, Demandred I felt was briliant here; a Forsaken that finally pushed the Light to its knees. As for Shara's arrival which was I beleive really cool, wouldn't he have done the same thing when he attacked Paaran Disen in the AoL? Sanderson had to give Demandred a huge weakness, or Mat would not have been able to stand toe to toe with him on the battlefeild.

 

Someone asked in another forum why Androl did not attack Demandred with his gateways.... He actually did at the Last Battle, but Demandred reversed it and nearly killed him. Do not forget, Asmodean in FoH said that beside Rand only LTT and Demandred himself can interfere with gateways in this fashion. Blocking them from closing seems to me to be a basic method, while we see a more advanced version in AMoL. This is why I rate Demandred waaay above any other Forsaken in the series, especially Sammael based on their performances.

[wotfan4472]

Even though they all were egotistacle maniacs! (Hope I spelt that right, lol)

[Agitel]

That's the problem with Brandon's response to criticism. He doesn't take is as criticism, he tries to explain why he was never wrong in the first place.

 

Brandon's explained how he addresses criticism and complaints before. I've followed some of the Writing Excuses podcasts he participates in. I don't think I'm going to do his explanation justice, here, but when he gives his work to alpha and beta readers and gets feedback, the feedback often includes advice about what should have happened or what the fan's expected. He explained that one of the pitfalls he kept falling into early on in his career was that he'd find himself rewriting as the readers thought it should go. He's said that when he gets feedback, his response is now 'what have I done that has led the readers to think this doesn't fit?' It's not that he throws out their criticism; he just doesn't default towards their thoughts on what should have happened or their advice on how to fix it.

 

Now, that's in response to criticism for his own works. With the Wheel of Time, he's operating in another author's work with already established characters. That throws more things into consideration. He did write a character arc for Demandred in AMOL which was later almost entirely edited out for being "too distracting." It may have been that. Still, I'm interested in River of Souls and whether this character arc helps to further justify the changes in Demandred we saw. If things are done in a sensible way, I can certainly see how his recent experiences may have reshaped him.

[woomia]

I definately wouldn't pass judgement on Demandred until we get that missing chapter.

[LewsTherin10]

Demandred knew his lackey had the seals to the dark ones prison. He would have found it implausible that Rand would confront the Dark One without recovering them, hence he had a pretty good reason to think LTT would have to come to Merrillor. It was a masterstroke of daring by Rand to enter the Pit of Doom without them or really any clear idea who or how they would be recovered. It was a total act of faith in his allies, something Demandred would never dream of doing. His lack of imagination was his undoing (sorta Sauron like incidentally).

Agreed.  I remember Demandred thinks to himself at one point that Lews Therin always had to be in charge of the army himself he could never let someone else be in control.  In Demandred's mind, he was convinced that LT was at Merrilor.  It's pretty clear in the text.  Demandred can't separate Rand from LT.  In his mind Rand is LT from the past.

[morkhon]

Demandred knew his lackey had the seals to the dark ones prison. He would have found it implausible that Rand would confront the Dark One without recovering them, hence he had a pretty good reason to think LTT would have to come to Merrillor. It was a masterstroke of daring by Rand to enter the Pit of Doom without them or really any clear idea who or how they would be recovered. It was a total act of faith in his allies, something Demandred would never dream of doing. His lack of imagination was his undoing (sorta Sauron like incidentally).

 

First plausible reason I've seen to explain -some- of Dem's behavior. The problem is Dem would have to assume Rand discovered the seals Egwene had were fake. Do we have any indication that that's the case? 

[Big_Boppa]

Interesting thread.

 

I am not going to weigh in to the discussion in any depth, except to say that as I read AMOL, I generally enjoyed Demandred's thread. His sudden mania toward Rand/LTT did not bother me. As far as the Sharan's sudden appearance goes, it fit for me. When the uber-gateway opened, I can remember smiling and thinking "Doh! He was in Sharra!" I was waiting for the "October Surprise" and I thought it worked.

 

Given the fact that I accepted his Rand/LTT obsession, I was not disappointed by the way it expressed itself. One of the hallmarks of grudges agains/obsessions with others is that we tend to delude ourselves into believing that we are as important to them as they are to us. Dem just could not let himself believe that Rand/LTT didn't have the same need to "best" Demandred as he did to "best" Rand/LTT. That rings true to me as well. The peopple we hate the most often go through life without giving us a second thought. Adding in the real feelings he had for the Sharran woman adds a counterpoint and makes his story more tragic and human. The man who would be king but for the fact that a better king was already onstage.

 

As far as the constant screaming for LTT and the challenge battles, this seemed very familiar but I am not scholar enough to pin it down. It feels intentional and referential. My mind keeps dredging through myths. Can anyone help here? Was there anything like this in the Illiad (Achilles/Hector?), Arthurian Legend (Gawain?), or other epics? This is probably stating the obvious, but "Bao of the Wyld" seems awfully close to "Beowulf", esepcially when you consider that Dem was working with Graendal who had been made monstrous looking.

[Sabio]

 

As I stated in the "Quality" thread, I really think most of Demandred's decisions as a general were idiotic.

 

He immiediately lost credibility when he performed in the first duel, something Thom told us was asinine when describing a legend about Hawkwing supposedly fighting a hundred duels.  By the time we get to the third duel it had moved from stupid to cartoonish.

 

 

 

In regards to actual tactics he doesn't come off much better.

 

Demandred desires and the DO's orders are to kill Rand, which means the best place for him to be is at SG.  Rand has to come there.

 

 

 

He starts the book utilizing a worthwhile tactic in his attack on Caemlyn; a move that would cause distraction amongst the Light, destroy supply lines and possibly goad Rand into attacking him (not to mention fuel the loss of hope the DO wants).

 

His next move is a multi-pronged invasion.  Okay, we are looking good but we still have 600 more pages of battle to go.

 

The 4 Generals are corrupted, which again is pretty good strategy.  (Although it breaks a number of the rules we have been taught about both Compulsion and the warder bond, but that's another topic).

 

His next move should be to continue his invasion and raid city after city.  This would either crush the Light-side army through attrition or force them to attack the Dark-side army directly.

 

Instead Demandred not only allows Mat to retreat but then abandons the invasion to fight in a location chosen by his enemy.  Brilliant . . . not so much.

 

 

The argument that he is convinced that Rand is with the army makes no sense.  Let's say the spy network has somehow failed to report that Mat is in charge of the army, at some point you need to admit that he isn't going to fight you to defend the Light-side army (I figure this would have set in sometime after you slaughtered most of the Bodrerlanders).

 

The worst part of all this was that Brandon was warned his plans for Demandred re: using his supposed insane hatred of Rand as the driving principle in explaining his stupidity were highly OOC after tGS where his insistance that only he be the one to kill Rand was met clearly with a fan response point out how far this diverged from his earlier depictions. Rather than accept this and adjust the plotwork, all that was done to correct the issue was slap a bandage on it by having Moghedien observe to the reader that Demandred had changed, his hatred for Rand for some reason grown more personal.

 

That's the problem with Brandon's response to criticism. He doesn't take is as criticism, he tries to explain why he was never wrong in the first place.

Remember one of the bigegst failings of all the forsaken and we have seen this again and again is to assume Rand is LTT.  So they are always thinking what would LTT do.  Dem knew LTT was arrogant and wanted to be in the front.  So in Dems mind there is no way Rand wouldn't be there.  It must of been LTT moving the armies becuase LTT was a great general and LTT would lead the armies.  They never considered Rand wasn't LTT, that Rand only had LTT's memories.  Grendal got out of trouble by convincning Moridin Rand was in pain because LTT couldn't balefire a whole castle and not feel regret.  Dem didn't see Rand all he saw was LTT, a man he wanted more then anything to prove he was the better man.  He didn't care by then if the light or shadw won, he has since the AOL wanted to humiliate and defeat LTT.  As long as he did that Dem didn't care about anything else.

[flinn]

I wonder how much living up the the Sharan prophecies and we see glimpses of him in some ways caring about their future played into his sudden obsession with Rand also. Maybe he wanted to prove something to the Sharan's and himself that he really was their prophesized hero.

 

 A bit like Couladin.