Moiraine, Nynaeve, and Loial

[Rhienne]

I know Moiraine already has her own AMoL thread, but I've been doing a re-read since AMoL came out, and what struck me was how much these three chracters just fade out of the plot.  Okay, lots of other characters fade out too, but these three are pretty major.  I have seen people commenting that after tSR RJ didn't really know what to do with Loial,and Moiraine is absent for obvious reasons but doesn't play as big a role as many people thought she would on her return, but not much on Nynaeve.

 

I didn't particularly notice it on my first read, perhaps because there were long waits between books coming out and I forgot who had focused in which plots, but in the first half of the books (say up till LoC/ACoS) Nynaeve seems like a pretty major character.  While Rand is clearly the main character, with Perrin and Mat as the other key heroes, I would always have said that Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve were also very primary characters, and probably a good step up from the next tier down (Min, Moiraine, Thom, etc.).  However, while the other 5 main characters all have their own distinct character arcs, Nynaeve doesn't really have anything in the second half of the story.  Instead she becomes an add-on for Rand, Egwene, and Lan (when he gets his own sub-arc).  Yes, she still has some great scenes, but they are all just isolated scenes rather than an actual arc (e.g. her raising, healing madness, raising the Golden Crane).  I think there was potential for some of these things to be developed into story arcs, like spending time with the Asha'man, or helping Egwene to begin to change the way the AS think about their duties, more involvement with raising the Malkieri army, etc..

 

The same was true of Loial.  He had a few isolated scenes, but was generally pretty absent for the second half of the story.  I was expecting some scenes of him talking at the Stump, and convincing the Ogier to be a 'bit more hasty' and join the humans, but we don't really get any resolution to his plot.

 

And Moiraine obviously came back for her important role at Merrilor, but like Nynaeve and Loial, had very little screen time in the final book. 

 

I was just curious as to why people think these characters were allowed to fade out, and whether it worked well for the story?  E.g. could some of the pages allocated to Elayne's succession have been better spent on Loial gathering the Ogier, etc.

[Achala]

  ^{I agree, I was surprised at how Nynaeve was allowed to fade into the background. Of course, none of us are denying her importance in the link with Rand and Moiraine, but you're right, she does seem to fall to a lower tier than that accorded to Elayne or Egwene. I figured that was because of the reason you mentioned- she was an 'add-on'. She had joined the Rand camp, and RJ didn't really need her as an independent voice in that band. She'd made it pretty clear by TGS that she was going to stand behind Rand come what may, so once her allegiance was established, she didn't 'need' to stray from it, from a storyteller's point of view, or have adventures on her own.}

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Partly, they just faded because they didn't have a lot to do. Loial was important at first, and at the end would need to bring in the Ogier, but as that ended up being pretty minor we didn't get as much Loial at the end as we could, meaning he's basically been surplus to requirements for most of the series. Moiraine disappeared, but when she came back she had an important role to play, but it ended up being so underwhelming that she quotes prophecy, and then joins Rand in the Pit of Doom to stand around and wait - she had something to do, but it was rather underwritten, leaving people asking "was that it"? I think structurally, AMoL exacerbated some of these problems - we kept cutting back to Nynaeve POVs of her doing nothing (at least prior to her finding Alanna), and Moiraine also doing nothing, and Brandon was also asked to cut out the section he wrote on the Ogier pushing back the Black Wind in the Ways, so they mostly just got lost in the Last Battle.

[PhoenixUK]

I didnt expect a lot from Loial. I think once he got the Ogier to stay, that was pretty much his plotline done. They could have opened the Book of Translation and run away, but they chose to fight the Shadow instead. 

 

Nynaeve is a bit disappointing, BUT she has already done an insane amount in the books. She melts Lan's cold heart. She helps rescue Egwene from the Seanchan. She fought Moghedien, found one of the seals and the male a'dam. She was involved in getting birgitte ripped out of TAR. She captured Moghedien, which helped Egwene discover Traveling. She Healed Logain, Leane and Suian. She healed the madness of the Taint. She stopped Rand from unleashing Balefire on the Borderlanders, and helped Rand track down the forsaken leading to the permanent death of Arangar/Belthamel. She helped bring Rand and Tam together, which led to Rand turning away from becoming a psychopath. She helped Lan recruit a Malkieri army for a first strike against the Blight. She helped cleanse Saidin of the taint. She also gave us the view of the Accepted and Aes Sedai tests/  I think she single handedly did a ridiculous amount in the books. I cant fault that she had little to do in the Final Battle itslef. 

 

 

I did feel VERY disappointed with Moiraine though. We knew she was coming back for a while - Lanfear after all came back, and Min had her visions that moiraine was still important (but assumed that moiraine was dead and therefore the vision was somehow wrong). We had that great rescue from Mat. All for what? Telling rand and egwene to stop being childish and work together? True, she was there to help rand with callandor. but at that point, Rand was no longer super paranoid, and no longer needed to rely only on the two aes sedai he trusted implicitly (moiraine and nynaeve). So she was ultimately super disappointing in her return. 

[Lisa Campbell]

I think that what a lot of people forget when talking about Moiraine and Nynaeve is the time warp between SG and the rest of the world. What was about a week or two for the rest of the armies and only a few days for Ituralde's group was less than a day for Rand and co. Is it any wonder that other characters have more POVs when there was much to catch up on with subtle answers to questions such as who was acting as Sammael etc. when there was such a timing distraction between TGS and AMOL?

 

Sometimes I don't really get why people are complaining I guess... 

[Aulduron]

Nyneave also got Alana to release Rands bond before she was killed. That was a major trap that she averted, and may have been the difference between winning and losing.

[jack of shadows]

@phoenixuk,

you forgot something important about nynaeve,she formed a friendship with rand,

it started around winter heart before the cleansing and (for me) culminated in the

field of merrilor meeting when she arrived with perrin.

it was a very powerful declaration of trust and support in rand's cause.

egwene and her sitters got nynaeve's message loud and clear!

nynaeve's journey is amazing,wisdom of emond's field,aes sedai,wife to a king,

adviser and confidant to the dragon reborn and most importantly his friend.

 

nynaeve gave rand a hug-rand gave her a crown! lol.

[Ian Nag]

I think Nynaeves arc was already carried out very well in the frst 13 books and now she just needed t finish her role. and her arc dealt with Egwene and Rand dieing because all she ever wanted to do was protect them

[Rhienne]

I think that what a lot of people forget when talking about Moiraine and Nynaeve is the time warp between SG and the rest of the world. What was about a week or two for the rest of the armies and only a few days for Ituralde's group was less than a day for Rand and co. Is it any wonder that other characters have more POVs when there was much to catch up on with subtle answers to questions such as who was acting as Sammael etc. when there was such a timing distraction between TGS and AMOL?

 

Sometimes I don't really get why people are complaining I guess... 

I'm not really complaining (although I do prefere Nynaeve in the latter half of the series, so would rather have had more POVs in that half than the other way round).  I'm also not completely commenting on just her role in AMoL, which does make sense as you point out the time warp.  I am also commenting on the fact that from book 6/7, she no longer has her own Nynaeve-centric plot arc, e.g. Egwene has the WT arc, Mat has the Seanchan, Elayne has the Andoran and Cairhienin succession (even secondary characters like Aviendha (future of the Aiel), and Lan (journey to Tarwin's Gap) get their own plot arcs) but is instead an accessory to other characters.  I do think this works to some extent as I love her friendship with Rand, but on doing a back-to-back re-read her drop-off did seem quite jarring (as did Loial's).

[jack of shadows]

@rhienne,

nynaeve never had her own centric plot arc,not really,forget about the first book,

emond's field eight are more or less together.

books 2-3 its nynaeve-elayne-egwene,books 4-5 its nynaeve-elayne-thom-juilin,

in lord of chaos we have a reunion with the salidar aes sedai.

books 7-8 its nynaeve-elayne-aviendha,and from the beginning of winter heart

(bar a few exceptions) until the very end its rand-nynaeve-others.

[Rhienne]

@rhienne,

nynaeve never had her own centric plot arc,not really,forget about the first book,

emond's field eight are more or less together.

books 2-3 its nynaeve-elayne-egwene,books 4-5 its nynaeve-elayne-thom-juilin,

in lord of chaos we have a reunion with the salidar aes sedai.

books 7-8 its nynaeve-elayne-aviendha,and from the beginning of winter heart

(bar a few exceptions) until the very end its rand-nynaeve-others.

Yes, but she did have the Moghedian plot, and Nynaeve and Elayne were equally centric to the Black Ajah arc and the Bowl of the Winds arc.

[jack of shadows]

funnily enough,i could never have envisioned nynaeve as a world leader,not in the same way

i could imagine egwene and elayne would become.

don't get me wrong,barring rand,no one have accomplished more that her throughout the wheel

of time saga,and if achievements were the deciding criteria to be amyrlin,nynaeve would have been

nominated without a second thought.

fortunately for nynaeve,she is not amyrlin material i.e. too stubborn,too volcanic,too unorthodox-too

much of a maverick really,and as we all know,the presence of mavericks in a rigid organization like

the white tower is always problematic,rand summed it up nicely "don't let them ruin you,nynaeve,they'll try."

 

the heart and the soul of the wheel of time journey  needed to be together in the last battle,

rand al thor was the heart,nynaeve al meara was the soul,and even without her own centric plot arc in the

later books,she was almost always at the heart of the storm.

[PhoenixUK]

Yes, I LOVED that part at the end of her Aes Sedai testing, where she said she was ready to sacrifice being Aes Sedai if they asked her to conform to their restrictions because there were more important things to think about in life. And think about how many of these so called ideal Aes Sedai have acted anyway, getting stuck in a civil war, putting the Dragon Reborn at risk etc. 

[Feral]

I never really expected much from Loial. I don't think he was ever in the same "tier" as Nynaeve and Moiraine. Those two women though... I thought Moiraine was supposed to save the world? Yes, she helped out at Field of Merrilor(sp), but it was hardly an epic moment or anything. And Nynaeve...she's one of the most innovative and powerful channelers the Light has, with probably the most experience at dealing with Forsaken. She should have been on the battle field, kicking ass. But what does she spend the book doing? Basically being a power socket for Rand. Yes, she brings Alanna round to let go of the bond, but that whole part of the story was crappy writing as far as I'm concerned, and it was hardly the epic moment Nyn deserved.

 

I mean, we had a load of Adrol scenes in the book. I know that the Black Tower arc was important and everything, but the fact is he's only been introduced in the last couple of books. Compared to the original cast of characters we met in the first book, I really don't give a toss about him.

[shortkut]

It was never said moiraine would save the world, just that rand would fail without her

[Rhienne]

It was never said moiraine would save the world, just that rand would fail without her

 

The Aelfinn's prophecy was that Mat must 'give up half the light of the world to save the world'.

[Feral]

 

It was never said moiraine would save the world, just that rand would fail without her

 

The Aelfinn's prophecy was that Mat must 'give up half the light of the world to save the world'.

 

Yup, that's the quote I was referring to. Yet I don't remember her actually doing anything really vital that another person wouldn't have been able to do. Am I wrong?

[Rhienne]

It has been confirmed by BS that Moiraine's vital role was making Egwene and Rand work together.  I find it hard to believe that if she hadn't been there they wouldn't have come to some agreement (despite Egwene's extreme petulence and refusal to actually explain her reasons), but apparently thats it.  I agree that this doesn't really seem like 'saving the world', but apparently it is.

[shortkut]

 

 

 

It was never said moiraine would save the world, just that rand would fail without her

The Aelfinn's prophecy was that Mat must 'give up half the light of the world to save the world'.

Yup, that's the quote I was referring to. Yet I don't remember her actually doing anything really vital that another person wouldn't have been able to do. Am I wrong?

being so literal would also mean that mat divided night and day or actually reduced the light from the sun by half

[Suttree]

 

 

It was never said moiraine would save the world, just that rand would fail without her

 

The Aelfinn's prophecy was that Mat must 'give up half the light of the world to save the world'.

 

Yup, that's the quote I was referring to. Yet I don't remember her actually doing anything really vital that another person wouldn't have been able to do. Am I wrong?

 If Rand and Egwene had not worked together all would have been lost. Egwene had to be convinced the seals needed to be broken and Rand had to be convinced to wait until the correct time among other things. I don't think it was handled well however. Moiraine comes in spouting prophecy that everyone already knows while Rand and Egwene are acting like children.

[Hybrid]

 If Rand and Egwene had not worked together all would have been lost. Egwene had to be convinced the seals needed to be broken and Rand had to be convinced to wait until the correct time among other things. I don't think it was handled well however. Moiraine comes in spouting prophecy that everyone already knows while Rand and Egwene are acting like children.

 

It was absolutely not handled well.  BS's character confrontations too often result in the "right" side throwing down a lecture and the "wrong" side acting so stupidly that it's almost a caricature.

[szilard]

The problem lies elsewhere.

 

Loial is just Treebeard from Lotr, his role is too big already in EOTW.

 

Sending El and Nyn to a meaningless tour de france (and El will go to another tour in the succession plot) is just an example that Jordan had no idea how to finish the story after FOH. So, what did he do? Separating and stretching (with forced storylines). Of course there was a vaguely story in his head but nothing more.

 

Nyn is my third favourite character but i would rather see her dead (ACOS - Mashiara) than doing "nothing" (ACOS-AMOL). Moi had fulfilled her role in the first four books, then she became a background character in the fifth book and she died (fitting end). Yes, she is dead in my version of the story.

 

Rand/Perrin/Avi/Nyn got nothing to do after FOH. Eg and Mat have 2-3 small problems (being A., Tuon) but they are doing nothing important.

 

(Don't forget, we don't know anything about Jordan's contract: deadlines etc.)

 

And there was the health issue, as i recall Jordan said something like this: he writes too much and he will die if he can't restrain himself after LOC. Do you believe him? I don't. Between 1984/1988 and 1994 he was like a writing machine because he got the FLOW (see the first three novels from Martin).

 

Separating storylines was a really bad idea. I think it comes from Martin who thought this method is very useful because you only write 60-80 pages per character and they have no interaction between themselves so you can pump out books faster. (If you have ideas... if you have no ideas you just rehash plots see TGS-TOM-AMOL) The first books (thanks to the intertwining storylines-POVs and Rand constantly being in the almost 50-90% in the books, except TDR) were wonderful.That's why the books after them get bad rap.

 

Regarding stretching: do we really need the Perrin-Faile/the Bowl/the Kin/Morgase/Mat is doing nothing right now etc subplots?

No.

 

There are very entertaining parts among them: ACOS chapter 22, TPOD chapter 6 etc.; and there are totally boring and meaningless parts: TPOD chapter 7-10 etc with only one useful information:

She was no Domani, to receive her retainers in her bath.

Perrin should have died in TR because he adds nothing to the story. He is just a filler char. That's why one could skip all of his chapters and loses nothing. (9 readers out of 10)

 

On the contract: you have a deadline, so you have to deliver something. (Martin's original contract was for three books so he could gouge better terms out of the publisher; then he published two totally bad books... because he has no idea how to finish the story)

 

-------------------------------

Don't mention the strongest line in the series:

 

The first nine Aes Sedai swore fealty to the Dragon Reborn, and the world was changed forever.

 

Best ending line ever.

 

[PhoenixUK]

 

 

 

It was never said moiraine would save the world, just that rand would fail without her

 

The Aelfinn's prophecy was that Mat must 'give up half the light of the world to save the world'.

 

Yup, that's the quote I was referring to. Yet I don't remember her actually doing anything really vital that another person wouldn't have been able to do. Am I wrong?

 If Rand and Egwene had not worked together all would have been lost. Egwene had to be convinced the seals needed to be broken and Rand had to be convinced to wait until the correct time among other things. I don't think it was handled well however. Moiraine comes in spouting prophecy that everyone already knows while Rand and Egwene are acting like children.

since neither Egwene nor Rand had the actual seals since they were stolen, it was all irrelevant any way ;)

[Suttree]

since neither Egwene nor Rand had the actual seals since they were stolen, it was all irrelevant any way ;)

1. We don't know when the seals were stolen.

 

2. Had they been broken earlier or had the info not been passed on to Logain all would have been lost.

[Finnssss22]

 

since neither Egwene nor Rand had the actual seals since they were stolen, it was all irrelevant any way ;)

1. We don't know when the seals were stolen.

 

Not exactly when but we actually do have a pretty good idea.

It was recent to Chapter 14..

 

 

“You think that will work, do you?” Taim asked.

“When the Nae’blis hears of how you are bungling— ”

“The Nae’blis? I care not for Moridin. I have already provided a gift to

the Great Lord himself. Beware, I am in his favor. I hold the keys in my

hands, Hessalam.”

“You mean . . . you actually did it? You stole them?”

Taim smiled. He turned back to Androl, who hung in the air, struggling

without success. He wasn’t shielded. He flung another weave at Taim,

but the man blocked it indifferently.