Ask Simple questions, get simple answers (aMoL version covering the entire series)

[DemandredFO]

I'd love to know if what happened to fain was always the plan or if the plan was modified. He seemed sort of important but at the same time sort of not, so I'm confused.

[Naggash]

I think Fain, as Demandred although not nearly as important, is somewhat a reminder that a lot more things of importance happen in the world than what we see through the POV characters.

Fain could have a book of his own, narrating his own journey, and I actually think it would be interesting, but in tWoT he is not a main character and as such he only is depicted when he is relevant to the actual WoT story.

I also think a trilogy about Demandred would be terrific. We know he is a deeper character than what is shown in the books, and we know he has had an adventure of his own, but tWoT is not his adventure.

As well as some books about Tuon or maybe Galgan, showing the Seanchan empire. But again, that is not the story at hand.

 

So yeah, Fain is deeper than what secondary characters tend to be and we know that he has gone through things we didn't see happening. I can only find that fascinating.

[Sabio]

Jack, I agree I think it would of been better had Rand simply killed Fain and then that would of been that.  No build up. just a minor character dying.  By letting him linger on people got their hopes up of something epic happening.  I am not one that's overly disappointed how he died, but it  does make me wonder why he wasn't just killed off earlier.

[Mr Ares]

Jack, I agree I think it would of been better had Rand simply killed Fain and then that would of been that.  No build up. just a minor character dying.  By letting him linger on people got their hopes up of something epic happening.  I am not one that's overly disappointed how he died, but it  does make me wonder why he wasn't just killed off earlier.

The obvious answer would be that RJ had bigger plans for him than were realised.

[Allenbird]

Maybe I look at Fain as more of a major character than most. He is equal to Thom in my opinion for his importance in the story. I mean Fain is the reason why the events of Book 1 even took place. Ok, maybe not THE reason, but he was set up as to be the reason why the dark one found Rand. Being consumed by the spirit within Shadar Logoth, then a kindred spirit to the black wind, able to entrap dark spawn and make them fear him? How is this a minor character? Sure, he was written about less and less as the series went on, so maybe that's why people forget about the wound the Fain giving Rand being what made Rand think about how to cleanse Saidin. The counterpulse of one evil against the other. There are a lot of important elements that are there because of Fain's character to be such a "minor" person in the story.

 

The effects of Balefire on Mashadar was seen in Crown of Swords so think you would have to have a wide sweeping stream of balefire like Taim "attempted" to weave to even come close to getting rid of him.

 

Further more, If any channelers had been trying to attack the fog or fain hidden within, it was never said, so therefore they never felt that a "fog" could threaten them because no one connected it to Shadar logoth so that gives fain the decided advantage in any of it. People were just dying in a fog in the valley beside the pit of doom...nothing out of the ordinary here...I am sure people die in fogs at Thakan'dar everyday...so why would channelers or anyone even think there is a threat in the fog that you could actually kill and get rid of it? because this essence was something unique to the story....oh except mat!! So what did Mat do at the Pit of Doom other than kill Fain? Because he "heard that if you catch a disease once you never catch it again". How is that not just written for the plot. It just seems cheesy.

 

But all of that aside, non of that still answers any of my questions...like how he got there and stuff. Obvious he isn't using gateways or anything like EVERYONE else. Oh except Mat who flew in on a To'raken and miraculously survived without injury. Maybe I just see that 3 paragraph section as poorly written. Won't be the first time but overall I am satisfied and happy with the story.

 

It is a great ending. But the whole part about Fain seems thrown together to tie up a lose end from the author. IN STORY, it makes no sense to me. and that's all I will say.

[DemandredFO]

What do you mean the effects of Balefire and Mashadar. If you're talking about Rand and Moridin, that happened because Saidin and True Power collided.

[Sabio]

Ares, the reason I disagree with you that RJ had bigger plans for Fain is simply when RJ was writing, Fain for the most part vanished.  He lost the main villian role and was just more of a trouble maker here and there.  So for me I can't see him being pushed aside like he was and then having an epic finale.  At least for me I just don't see him ever of going to have a epic death.

 

@Allenbird.  As for how he got there we know he walked.  There was a POV of him walking there.

[jack of shadows]

@allenbird,

don't underestimate the reader's long memories, lol,

the two unhealing  wounds fighting each other on rand's side gave him the idea

about two different evils nullifying each other,how can anyone forget something 

so crucial? 

in my opinion,this was the sole reason for padan fain existence,when rand figured

out how to cleanse saidin, there was no reason to keep padan fain alive,the rest of

his thread were just robert jordan/brandon sanderson meanderings.

[Mr Ares]

Ares, the reason I disagree with you that RJ had bigger plans for Fain is simply when RJ was writing, Fain for the most part vanished.  He lost the main villian role and was just more of a trouble maker here and there.  So for me I can't see him being pushed aside like he was and then having an epic finale.  At least for me I just don't see him ever of going to have a epic death.

It would not be unreasonable for him to vanish for long periods when there's nothing for him to do then, and then reappear later to fulfil his role in the conclusion. Consider that even major characters like Mat and Perrin sat out an entire book each, simply because there wasn't much for them to do at the time. Fain was important, but only intermittently - therefore, he's exactly the sort of person you want to drop when there's nothing for him to do and bring back when he's relevant. His appearance in ToM sets up his having a role in AMoL, which then proves to be so utterly underwhelming - and it would be underwhelming precisely because he's been set up to be more significant than he ended up being. If RJ really had no further plans for him, he would probably have killed him off in WH, rather than just putting him to one side.

[Naggash]

I don't think this discussion will take us anywhere.

I'm more on Sabio's side (though I give Fain more importance than just a troublemaker) but both your and his opinion are equally valid and so will they remain forever because we have no way of knowing the right answer, which would have to be given by RJ (if he were willing to).

 

I sometimes, when reading the books, wonder how things would have been in the last three were him still alive, but in the end it's just trivial pondering. We cannot expect BS to be on Jordan's mind. We are lucky enough that such a talented writer was willing to provide closure for the series (not that he didn't gain something in return, but that isn't bad either).

[Allenbird]

@allenbird,

don't underestimate the reader's long memories, lol,

the two unhealing  wounds fighting each other on rand's side gave him the idea

about two different evils nullifying each other,how can anyone forget something 

so crucial? 

in my opinion,this was the sole reason for padan fain existence,when rand figured

out how to cleanse saidin, there was no reason to keep padan fain alive,the rest of

his thread were just robert jordan/brandon sanderson meanderings.

 

 

Exactly!!

It actually would have made perfect sense in the story for Padan fain's character(who at that time had already gained the ability to create the fog around him which I can assume was an extention of his mind then as well) to have shown up at the cleansing and died epically there. The battle is already epic, but that imo would have been the perfect place for Fain to die.

 

I agree, the subject goes no where, just wanted a little filler for fain.

[DemandredFO]

RJ rarely killed anyone and I do think the cleansing idea was Fain's purpose. After WH he does nothing even though he had Mordeth's reanimation powers after SL was destroyed.

[Sabio]

Fain follows the trend of many characters, they do their main purpose then vanish.  But with Fain he couldn't simply just ignore the character, there had to be an end to Fain or else this evil guy would just be wandering about post last battle. So have him show up, and kill him.    Look at Samm. arch enemy to LTT, a forsaken, yet didn't even have a death scene. 

[DemandredFO]

Ishamael had 4 death scenes

[jack of shadows]

four death scenes?

rand burned him once(eye of the world,but he didn't die)

later,rand killed him three times,i.e. battle of falme,the stone of tear and the last battle,

did i miss another death?

[DemandredFO]

Oh, I thought he died that first time too. My bad

[Andrew Coleman]

Not sure if this has been brought up(probably has) in the great hunt when bale doman sets sail from illian after being paid he looks through his compartment of all the items he purchased in maradon. He mentions an age dark ivory carving of a man holding a sword that is said to get warm if u hold it. Is this by chance the fat man angreal that rand finds in tear? Probably isn't but just listwned to it on audio book today and for the first time I noticed it

[DemandredFO]

No but it seems to be a male angrael

[Andrew Coleman]

That's why I asked. Coincidences and taveran ya know lol. Sorry bout my spelling no book in reach and going off of sound

[MasterAblar]

four death scenes?

rand burned him once(eye of the world,but he didn't die)

later,rand killed him three times,i.e. battle of falme,the stone of tear and the last battle,

did i miss another death?

He didn't die at Falme.

[jack of shadows]

@master ablar,

so,rand burned him once,stabbed him in the chest once and killed him twice?

[Naggash]

Yes. Ishamael dies at the Stone of Tear. Then Moridin is 'born' and dies at Shayol Ghul.

[MasterAblar]

@master ablar,

so,rand burned him once,stabbed him in the chest once and killed him twice?

 

Yep, pretty much.

[Sabio]

As Naggash said he only had 2 true deaths.  Tear and the was stuffed into another body to become Moridin.  Had he died each time he would of needed a new body each time.

[Mr Ares]

I don't think this discussion will take us anywhere.

I'm more on Sabio's side (though I give Fain more importance than just a troublemaker) but both your and his opinion are equally valid and so will they remain forever because we have no way of knowing the right answer, which would have to be given by RJ (if he were willing to).

 

I sometimes, when reading the books, wonder how things would have been in the last three were him still alive, but in the end it's just trivial pondering. We cannot expect BS to be on Jordan's mind. We are lucky enough that such a talented writer was willing to provide closure for the series (not that he didn't gain something in return, but that isn't bad either).

Just because it cannot be conclusively proved either way does not mean it is reasonable to suggest that both sides are equal. If you want to say that, you have to put forward an argument - because I can put forward an argument as to why I think RJ had further plans for Fain.

 

RJ rarely killed anyone and I do think the cleansing idea was Fain's purpose. After WH he does nothing even though he had Mordeth's reanimation powers after SL was destroyed.

RJ killed quite a few characters, especially minor ones. If he had no further purpose after WH, why didn't RJ kill him in WH? Consider that RJ made a lot of plans for the series. He foreshadowed things in some cases over a dozen books in advance. So do you really think it likely that a guy who made so many plans for his series, so many notes, who had such strong ideas about where it was going, you think that guy would keep Fain around on a whim, with no idea what to do with him? At the very least, RJ thought he might need Fain again, and so kept him around to be on the safe side. Also, let's not overlook the fairly significant developments in the Fain storyline in Brandon's books - Fain appears in ToM, setting up his appearance in the last book by heading for SG. By the time he appears in AMoL, he's no longer Fain, he's Shaisam. A new character, with a new name, new abilities, new plans, all out of nowhere. Either that's a lot of invention on Brandon's part, or it's a lot of developments from the notes that Brandon has rushed into the book without giving them time. If there was no further plan for Fain he could have just shown up as Fain and been killed. Instead we get fairly significant developments to the character taking place off screen before he is abruptly killed off. That, to me, sounds like a character RJ had plans for and those plans were not fully realised in the complete work.