Demandred: What would you do?

[NitroS]

I saw alot of dissapointment in the Demandred thread on the way Lan was the one to kill Demandred, while i didnt mind it and thought it fit quite well others wanted him dead by the power and not a simple sword fight. How would you have rathered he died?

 

Remember he's in a circle of 72 with sakarnen!

 

edit forgot about the spoiler title could a Mod please change it.

Edited March 5, 2013 by NitroS

[Orange7]

I can think of several scenarios, but my personal favorite is this:

 

Demandred realizes that Rand went to Shayol Ghul, and so Demandred actually attempts to follow him, traveling to an area nearby the battle at Shayol Ghul, because travelling in there would be suicide. As he approaches, Demandred runs into Fain, and he has some form of cataclysmic three way fight with Padin Fain and his crazed minions and the Light armies. Even with Mat bringing the forces from Merillor to help, the Light has almost no chance. Fain Mashadar's most of the people in Demandred's circle, and almost ends up getting Demandred himself by using his own circle of 72 against him, and he manages to destroy sakarnen/blow it out of Demandred's grip. In the last moments, as he is distracted with killing Demandred, Fain is stabbed in the back by Mat. Demandred, now weakened, is brought down by other circles/flees.

[mrtumnas]

I kind of liked the idea of Gawyn killing him...I know he's not everyone's favorite character, but it seems to fit the Pattern- it makes the attack on the WT, and the Seanchan's role in the Last Battle more meaningful, and calls to mind a David and Goliath type scenario. Have Demandred take on a few powerful channelers first, and have Gawyn with his blood knife rings take him down from behind before Demandred knows what is happening. Gawyn would still have to die, the Sharans could kill him...But I didn't like how Gawyn died for nothing. Lan didnt need to be more hardcore. He was plenty bad-a enough before he killed Demandred.

 

 I don't believe Demandred should be stupid enough to risk everything by having a one on one swordfight with some random guy, when the Sharan army could have stopped it at any minute. Dying by stealth makes much more sense.

[NitroS]

I can think of several scenarios, but my personal favorite is this:

 

Demandred realizes that Rand went to Shayol Ghul, and so Demandred actually attempts to follow him, traveling to an area nearby the battle at Shayol Ghul, because travelling in there would be suicide. As he approaches, Demandred runs into Fain, and he has some form of cataclysmic three way fight with Padin Fain and his crazed minions and the Light armies. Even with Mat bringing the forces from Merillor to help, the Light has almost no chance. Fain Mashadar's most of the people in Demandred's circle, and almost ends up getting Demandred himself by using his own circle of 72 against him, and he manages to destroy sakarnen/blow it out of Demandred's grip. In the last moments, as he is distracted with killing Demandred, Fain is stabbed in the back by Mat. Demandred, now weakened, is brought down by other circles/flees.

That would have fixed the issue about fain being lackluster in the end and would be interesting from Demandreds pov to see his reaction to mashadar and if he understands it at all.

[mbuehner]

Ughh, this thread begs for fan fic, so i'll try to keep this straightforward- I think the framework of what Demandred did was ok. It was the execution that was absurd. Strip out Gawyn and Galad. Strip out Demmy screaming across the battlefield like a lunatic and firing off random blasts of BF. Play up the idea that Demmy has the seals (or thinks he does) and is trying to lure Rand out to fight him under the logical assumption that Rand wont go to SG without the seals... this can also be a plausible explanation for why Demmy isn't nuking the good army (he's saving his strength to fight a Callandor armed Dragon). Instead of crazy bolts of random BF, have Demmy use a couple judicious, spectacular strikes (essentially a shock and awe campaign) to draw Rand out. Same ending with Lan, but without Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum its a lot less silly. It can be played that Demmy is caught by surprise by the Foxhead T'A and still expecting a strike from Rand at any moment, so he gets into a sword fight to conserve his strength thinking he can end it at his leisure, but obviously not.

[Entreri]

Gawyn sneak attack succeeding (very realistic given he had on 3 RINGS) or Lan gets near him via stealth...Demandred attacks with the Power and is shocked and gets stabbed through the heart by Lan.

 

Not realistic that he would have one-on-one fights with 3 bladeamasters, like some anime movie or that he would be an insanely great bladeamaster. Blademastery in AoL was merely a sport, Demandred may have killed a few dozen with a Power wrought blade during the 10 year War of Power.  

 

One Power fight would have been futile, unless it was Rand+Callandor.  With the 2nd most powerful sa'angreal+72 channeler, almost LTT, even Fain with Mashadar would have lost. Mashadar was nowhere near as vast as Shadar Logoth. 

 

 

"Realistically" of course, given Demandred's sa'angreal+72 channelers and abilites/almost LTT, he would have wrecked the Light armies, gone to SG and finish the Light armies there, kill the distracted Rand et al, finish off Fain. The series ends. The series ends like a horror movie, that would have been cool.  Only thing that could stop Demandred was Rand+Callandor (no buffer)...but such a struggle would have depleted Rand or burned him out...

 

The entire problem boils down to this: Demandred was build up for so long and given his tools, even RJ would have trouble imo.

[amolcomments]

Gawyn sneak attack succeeding (very realistic given he had on 3 RINGS) or Lan gets near him via stealth...Demandred attacks with the Power and is shocked and gets stabbed through the heart by Lan.

 

Not realistic that he would have one-on-one fights with 3 bladeamasters, like some anime movie or that he would be an insanely great bladeamaster. Blademastery in AoL was merely a sport, Demandred may have killed a few dozen with a Power wrought blade during the 10 year War of Power.  

 

One Power fight would have been futile, unless it was Rand+Callandor.  With the 2nd most powerful sa'angreal+72 channeler, almost LTT, even Fain with Mashadar would have lost. Mashadar was nowhere near as vast as Shadar Logoth. 

 

 

"Realistically" of course, given Demandred's sa'angreal+72 channelers and abilites/almost LTT, he would have wrecked the Light armies, gone to SG and finish the Light armies there, kill the distracted Rand et al, finish off Fain. The series ends. The series ends like a horror movie, that would have been cool.  Only thing that could stop Demandred was Rand+Callandor (no buffer)...but such a struggle would have depleted Rand or burned him out...

 

The entire problem boils down to this: Demandred was build up for so long and given his tools, even RJ would have trouble imo.

 

agreed - the obvious solution is don't write yourself into a corner by giving him a hugely powerful sa'angreal and a huge circle - neither of those things existed before amol

[jjp]

agreed - the obvious solution is don't write yourself into a corner by giving him a hugely powerful sa'angreal and a huge circle - neither of those things existed before amol

Ding ding ding.

[decrepid dragon]

 

Gawyn sneak attack succeeding (very realistic given he had on 3 RINGS) or Lan gets near him via stealth...Demandred attacks with the Power and is shocked and gets stabbed through the heart by Lan.

 

Not realistic that he would have one-on-one fights with 3 bladeamasters, like some anime movie or that he would be an insanely great bladeamaster. Blademastery in AoL was merely a sport, Demandred may have killed a few dozen with a Power wrought blade during the 10 year War of Power.  

 

One Power fight would have been futile, unless it was Rand+Callandor.  With the 2nd most powerful sa'angreal+72 channeler, almost LTT, even Fain with Mashadar would have lost. Mashadar was nowhere near as vast as Shadar Logoth. 

 

 

"Realistically" of course, given Demandred's sa'angreal+72 channelers and abilites/almost LTT, he would have wrecked the Light armies, gone to SG and finish the Light armies there, kill the distracted Rand et al, finish off Fain. The series ends. The series ends like a horror movie, that would have been cool.  Only thing that could stop Demandred was Rand+Callandor (no buffer)...but such a struggle would have depleted Rand or burned him out...

 

The entire problem boils down to this: Demandred was build up for so long and given his tools, even RJ would have trouble imo.

 

agreed - the obvious solution is don't write yourself into a corner by giving him a hugely powerful sa'angreal and a huge circle - neither of those things existed before amol

Agree completely. Although to be fair while both of these were mentioned. Without Demandred having a decent advantage the Last Battle would have been a bit meh. Seanchan and white tower combine channelers and destroy the trolloc armies. Possibly my biggest gripe with the whole last battle is that even rough numbers are never given. How large are each of the trolloc armies (apart from the one in Andor?) 500,000? 1,000,000? 5,000,000? It's really hard to tell how effective the strategies, channelers and nations were. I guess we do get told the light side is outnumbered 4-1 at FOM (or maybe that the seanchan made up 1/4 of the forces, or both these, I can't actually recall).

 

That was slightly off topic, but I think giving Demandred either one of these is fine. SK Light side forms a huge circle to fight him, or forms a huge circle to fight his huge circle. Or assassinates his circles members. Giving him both an unstoppable weapon and more channelers than the light and having him waste them was kinda a let down when I thought about it, but built tension quite well up until his death. I suppose it also gave Egwene's death an actual purpose, rather than dying as one of the many casualties of war. Although I am fine with the reasons given; doesn't understand that LTT is not Rand, conserving his strength, TP has made him a bit bonkers, blinded by arrogance to give the forsaken a unified theme (the last two make the most sense to me).

[NitroS]

What a suprise the threads been derailed already and turned into the existing demandred thread where not one bit of proper discussion can happen without attacks on sandersons writing.

[amolcomments]

What a suprise the threads been derailed already and turned into the existing demandred thread where not one bit of proper discussion can happen without attacks on sandersons writing.

 

"Remember he's in a circle of 72 with sakarnen!"

 

You set a higher standard for a fan fiction forum thread than the actual author bothered to adhere to haha

[ZorValachan]

changes:

1) Demandred wasn't always in the 72 circle. Empahsize that. In Avi's POV we see that large circles are prime for killing, as the other channelers in it are sitting ducks. Demandred thinks about this as a reason they didn't have large 72 vs 72 in the AoL.

 

2) Don't have Demandred rage over Rand. As shown in previous books, he is not Sammael. He knows the best way to help the Dark One win is to demoralize Rand by destroying the armies of the Light. No shouting/screaming over LLT. It was shown in the DO vs Rand POVs that people giving up was more important than just killing them and Rand giving up was the most important. Have Demandred see this and this is the reason he doesn't go to SG. Mat's unexpected war knowledge is what provides the tension.

 

3) Don't include Galad. (aside: I would have had Galad vs Shadar Haran fight, instead of just his body in SG). Either Gawyn or Lan kill him assassination style (no monologues) while he is fighting elsewhere. As we've been beat over the head with warders saying 'an Aes Sedai can be killed by an arrow if unaware' for 13 books. So he is killed by a swordsman, but not in the "one-on-one single file lineup" presented.

 

I think these changes would have done a lot to make Demandred make more sense.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Shoulda had every swordsman croak, queue the maniacal laughter and taunting annndd *zip Two rivers arrow shot blows into/through Demandred's neck in spectacular fashion.

[jjp]

Easy, Androl should have killed him by sucking him into the vacuum of outer space via gateway.

 

• Seriously though, drop the sword dueling nonsense.
• Logain should have dealt with Taim. 
• That would leave somebody like Egwene to deal with Demandred. Dying while confronting Demandred would be more fitting than Taim anyways, and it's a crime Logain didn't take Taim down. That's if you insist on a "one vs one showdown" scenario.  
• Otherwise, leave it to a military-style death, with Demandred being out-generalled by Mat and dying under attack by a brilliant maneuver. It could have been an incredible scene of Demandred going down in a hail of OP chaos, maybe by Mat's Seanchan surprise attack, and play up the angle that Mat's experience is based on centuries of ACTUAL FIGHTING and he used THAT to take Demandred out, who only relied on his books and minimal experience.
• Or, it could have been made interesting by some POVs of collared Aes Sedai/Wise Ones realizing they were attacking the Forsaken and actually feeling momentarily good about what they were doing, something like that to make it interesting. 
• Or, you could have seen Sharans uncomfortable fighting alongside Trollocs and Shadowspawn, and a Sharan taking him out after realizing what was happening.

You could have done ANY number of things that would have felt more organic and realistic to the story, and there are probably 50 better ideas than the ones I came up with at work after thinking for 10 minutes.

[Tyler Glembo]

I would have rather seen him be intelligent and refuse any stupid 1v1 sword fights, rather, he kills any and everything that comes his way using the power.  He was, after all, supposed to NOT be Sammael.  I get that he was becoming more twisted over time, but still.  I think a more appropriate ending would have been Egwene forming a circle of 72 with the Kin, Windfinders, AS, and Asha'men, then, coming at Demandred full power with the strength of their blows tearing apart the battlefield.  Eg with her newfound weave healing all the BF damage from Demandred.  As for who kills Taim, anybody could have, I don't care whether it was Logain or Pevara or whoever.

[jjp]

Egwene forming her own circle of 72 with the Kin, Windfinders, Aes Sedai, Asha'man, etc. would have been epic. 

[Lord D]

If I was Demandred and wanted to draw Rand out, I would have done my best to seize Elayne, and brutally rape her.  Rand's warden bond would have drawn him like crazy.

[Magus sedai]

I have been of the mind that I would have loved to see Dem and Rand have a quick battle then begin talking by all accounts Dem is and was a good man at heart, with Rands new look on things an apology could have tilted him back just to have Taim kill him in a " I was told to watch you Moridin said the Great Lord never fully trusted you, you who came to him last, you who always kept your hands clean with the excuse of all you want is LTT" I feel something like that would have been awsome he's was sold as the almost everything it seems fitting

[Orange7]

I have been of the mind that I would have loved to see Dem and Rand have a quick battle then begin talking by all accounts Dem is and was a good man at heart, with Rands new look on things an apology could have tilted him back just to have Taim kill him in a " I was told to watch you Moridin said the Great Lord never fully trusted you, you who came to him last, you who always kept your hands clean with the excuse of all you want is LTT" I feel something like that would have been awsome he's was sold as the almost everything it seems fitting

 

Demandred was one of the Shadows foremost generals during the War of Power. In addition, he has millions of deaths on his record. I think that is a little different than keeping his hands clean. Also, his entire motivation for going to the shadow was hating Rand, and holding a grudge for more than 3,000 years doesn't make it seem like he'd listen to reason, even if he were sane. It would be nice, but it is extremely unlikely.

[Magus sedai]

I know but he can chalk all those deaths as collateral damage as he proves he's better than LTT I could be wrong but did he set up horrific schools or feed entire cities to trollocs I don't recall him bieng associated with any of those stories

[Mr Ares]

I know but he can chalk all those deaths as collateral damage as he proves he's better than LTT I could be wrong but did he set up horrific schools or feed entire cities to trollocs I don't recall him bieng associated with any of those stories

Actually, feeding two cities to the Trollocs because he felt they had slighted him was one of his atrocities. By today's standards, he'd be considered a war criminal and guilty of crimes against humanity - any claim to clean hands is just laughable.

 

As for how Demandred should be dealt with, it's all in the execution. Any idea we come up with could be handled badly. If you want Demandred to die in a sword fight, you need to set things up so he either willing to enter into a sword fight, or simply unable to avoid it. You need a plausible reason for his killer to get close (as opposed to "magic arrows kill everything in Lan's path and no-one just shoots him because oh look, a squirrel"). Lan killing Demandred could have worked better had it been handled differently. We don't need three progressively better swordsmen duelling Demandred, we don't need the monologuing. We also don't need Sheathing the Sword to be further diluted. Make it quick - the quicker it is, the less chance there is for Demandred to protect himself or kill his opponent with the OP.

[Luckystrike]

This is clearly an epic fantasy, and you want the fight to be logical and practical? Come on, of course it's going to be epic with Lan sheating the sword. Yes, why would Demandred go for a swordfight? Because it's seems more epic. Of course a fight with the One Power could also be equally epic, with a swordfight was chosen. And thank god to that, because I prefer swordsfights to power-fights. 

One thing though, I thought it would be a one-to-one fight against Mat, not Lan. And that would be more epic, general against general in a last battle. Also, my naive side, wanted Demandred to be shocked realising Mat's the general that outplayed him (not that he was LTT). 

Also, Demandred seems to be the only Forsaken who was really hard to kill. Gawyn dying, trying to be a hero. Galad almost dying trying to do the right thing. Now, why Lan? As someone said somewhere, Lan was already a badass. The fight should have gone to Mat in my opinion. Still, Demandreds death was good. He died in the midst of the battle, one-on-one swordfight. 

[Suttree]

This is clearly an epic fantasy, and you want the fight to be logical and practical? Come on, of course it's going to be epic with Lan sheating the sword.

Yes because high quality fantasy is never plausible and logical.

 

In addition at this point sheathing the sword isn't so epic. It has been overused and diluted. Which was one of the main points made above.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Suttree

[RugbyPlayingAshaman]

I would have loved Siuan, Leane or another weaker channeler take him down Aes Sedai style with finesse and dexterous channeling. Here is how I imagine it: Demandred is busy killing thousands of troops and wiping out hundreds of Lightside channelers withhis massive Sharan Circle, and when he takes a moment to call for Lews Therin, a reversed web of saidar stops his heart, and the loss of so much Power instantly burns out or kills the Sharan's in his link or even better, while Gawyn is dueling Demandred, a sharp shield of inverted Spirit destroys his connection to saidin in a sneak attack and he is brutally cut down by Gawyn while screaming in the wake of the loss of his connection to Saidin. Siuan or Leane sneak off, and then remove the Mask of Mirrors, as they get closer to enemy lines. The image of him making a speech and then falling over dead after having taken his safety for granted would be hilarious.

 

 

This is clearly an epic fantasy, and you want the fight to be logical and practical? Come on, of course it's going to be epic with Lan sheating the sword. Yes, why would Demandred go for a swordfight? Because it's seems more epic. Of course a fight with the One Power could also be equally epic, with a swordfight was chosen. And thank god to that, because I prefer swordsfights to power-fights. 

One thing though, I thought it would be a one-to-one fight against Mat, not Lan. And that would be more epic, general against general in a last battle. Also, my naive side, wanted Demandred to be shocked realising Mat's the general that outplayed him (not that he was LTT). 

Also, Demandred seems to be the only Forsaken who was really hard to kill. Gawyn dying, trying to be a hero. Galad almost dying trying to do the right thing. Now, why Lan? As someone said somewhere, Lan was already a badass. The fight should have gone to Mat in my opinion. Still, Demandreds death was good. He died in the midst of the battle, one-on-one swordfight. 

 

I prefer power fights, but I do notice that R.J. seemed more invested in them than B.S. is. R.J. would talk about the various weaves, the difficulty in splitting/countering flows and the channeling process, whereas B.S. tends to just pass over the mechanics and go straight to the conclusion - instead of desperately weaving Fire just so to throw fireballs, blossoms of flames, blasts of fire, etc. we got multiple descriptions that were described in the same way - "lines of Fire" etc with occasional bursts of ingenuity (the use of Egwene's talent to pull up metal to attract lightning came out of nowhere). They just have different styles when describing things and while R.J. was intent on conveying exactly how he envisioned the scene playing out, B.S. is more concerned with telling you how the scene plays out.

Edited March 12, 2013 by RugbyPlayingAshaman

[joeron bigelow]

My thought of how i wanted to see it happen:

 

Rand approaches on foot in his plain brown coat - "Barid Bel Biv Devoe (whatever his name is), i've come for you"

 

and basically that two or three  pages of simple will power / one power channeling fighting, with Big D making one tiny error and losing.  

 

Rand/LTT telling him he was sorry but it had to be...the whole time Rand is calm and at peas

 

then he can go back to playing with Moridin up at Shayol Ghul....i dont think this is fan fiction...