The Black Tower (Full Spoilers)

[Varg]

I am placing this question here, as it happened in the tower. I'm trying to understand what happened when androl made that gateway to catch balefire.

 

From what I understood based on previous events, balefire is the most dangerous weave because it unravels the pattern on impact. The only time something else happens was when it collided with another balefire and the flame of tar.

why would it go through a gateway instead of burning it out of the pattern? Am I missing something?

[Suttree]

Mr Ares answered that here.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/80249-ask-simple-questions-get-simple-answers-amol-version-covering-the-entire-series/page-18?do=findComment&comment=2824417

 

It passes through the hole, it never acually interacts with any of the weaves.

[Paul H]

Even if you could open gateways fully with the dome, nobody but Perrin and Forsaken knew about the dome, so nobody thought to try making them close by.

 

But I think that Androl eventually did try making gateways to nearby locations, and they still didn't work, if I remember correctly.  (I could be mistaken, but that's how I remember it.)  Well, eventually he did manage the tiny gateway that diverted the streak of balefire, but he had to strain forever to make that, so I assume that for people without his Talent for gateways, even that tiny gateway would have been impossible or nearly impossible.

 

However if, all gateways, even local gateways, are blocked by the dreamspike (as was mentioned above), then I guess that this is not an issue.

 

 

I don't think the spike was being used yet when he cut the leather or when Nynaeve came.

 

My impression is that you are correct about this, though I am certainly not an expert on the timeline.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure the Black Aja attack was the one shown. The Ashaman probably didn't want to give the Aes Sedai too much information.

 

You are probably right.  The thing that made me doubt though is that they specifically mentioned a Black Ajah attack, which implies Aes Sedai (i.e., female channelers) only -- not Asha'man darkfriends plus Black Ajah Aes Sedai plus one of the Forsaken.  But of course, that can be explained as you said, by not wanting to give out too much information.  It makes sense that the Asha'man would not want to broadcast the fact that they had a significant number of darkfriends in their ranks, including their leader.

[Aulduron]

It was a very Aes Sedai statement.

[BFG]

I think that Androl opening his gateway coincided with Perrin moving the Dome to SG, but it's difficult to be sure.

[RugbyPlayingAshaman]

I think this might be relevant here-ish.

 

But Pavera channeling while in their double-bond link. There a discussion about the mechancis of that somewhere already? They even said "You used my talent" because she wove the gateway the way Androl would... that seems even more crazy than just being able to weave while linked...

 

Plus I'm a little surprised they never got back to that... Would have really helped rand had he just double bonded Nyn and Mori so they could still use the power and not be so useless.

 

There was no time to get back to it or share the lessons learned. Pevara noted that though the double bond was useful, she and Androl had not had the time to work out any additional benefits during the scene where they are behind enemy lines to try and retrieve the seals. There really was no time to teach Rand, Nynaeve and Moiraine this new technique before they want to Thakandar during the aftermath of their escape from the Black Tower, the battlefield at Merrilor and the specific scene where Pevera accessed Androls' talent. Anyway, I don't think it would have been advantageous to have Bonded two more women when Rand started the task - instead of just killing Alanna, Moridin would have had three additional targets to choose from to mortally weaken Rand.

[Guest Bryan Ritt]

While we are on the topic of Male and Female bonding. Elyane,Min,and Avienda are bonded to Rand in a new bond weave that Elyane uses to do it. What do you think would have happened if Rand had bonded them back?? Also would Rand know a different bonding weave then the BT AM, I believe Androl mentions that he uses a bond that another AM learned from an AS, yet they cant see each others weaves? When Androl and Pervera bonded each other it was like they almost became one, even before she used he Talent and they went into that whole spirit soul transfer thingy.13-13 is a full circle but if you have AS and AM bonded like A&P would that number increase?? An what about Aiel MC what happens to them do the Aiel send them to the WT or the BT or train them their selves. Their loyalty falls to no one but themselves, but sending them to the WT makes sense with all the effort they've put into getting closer to them. The BT on the other hand has other MC to teach and help i think in a less violent way and more controlled then having a Chosen in charge with a boss that is off gallivanting and saving the world. Logain is an example that men can learn to channel on their own just like WO women can do and the WF women and they learned some weaves better than the AS and some weaves they didnt know

[Pinzarn]

Along the lines of the double bond, think of the death implications.

 

In a normal AS+Warder bond, if the AS dies, the warder goes into a rage.  If he warder dies, it is a huge wave of emotion for the AS.

 

With the double bond, if Pervera dies, does Androl go into a warder rage while fighting off the wave of emotions?

[MasterAblar]

While we are on the topic of Male and Female bonding. Elyane,Min,and Avienda are bonded to Rand in a new bond weave that Elyane uses to do it. What do you think would have happened if Rand had

bonded them back??

 

Probably the same thing as happened between Androl and Pevara. But I suppose it's possible multiple reciprocal bondings could have unknown effects. It's simply never happened.

 

Also would Rand know a different bonding weave then the BT AM, I believe Androl mentions that he uses a bond that another AM learned from an AS, yet they cant see each others weaves?

 

Bonding didn't exist in the AoL, and Androl says he learned by watching another Asha'man. The Asha'man figured it out on their own.

 

When Androl and Pervera bonded each other it was like they almost became one, even before she used he Talent and they went into that whole spirit soul transfer thingy.13-13 is a full circle but if you have AS and AM bonded like A&P would that number increase??

 

That's an interesting idea. I don't think the possible number of channellers in the circle would increase, but if you can draw on your bondeds' powers than there may not be a limit in practice.

 

An what about Aiel MC what happens to them do the Aiel send them to the WT or the BT or train them their selves. Their loyalty falls to no one but themselves, but sending them to the WT makes sense with all the effort they've put into getting closer to them. The BT on the other hand has other MC to teach and help i think in a less violent way and more controlled then having a Chosen in charge with a boss that is off gallivanting and saving the world. Logain is an example that men can learn to channel on their own just like WO women can do and the WF women and they learned some weaves better than the AS and some weaves they didnt know

 

Sending them to the WT would achieve nothing since the WT has no way to teach them. Nor do the Wise Ones. The only ones who could them are the Asha'man. I doubt greater numbers of MC would be a problem for the BT.

The WO and WF had 3000 years to learn to channel on their own. While it's possible to learn on their own, it's excedingly dangerous to do so. You're likely to end up dead or with a block. Logain is an exception to the rule. It's better to have someone teach them. That doesn't necessarily mean that the Aiel MC will go to the BT, but they could strike some sort of  a bargain for the Asha'man to get them started. The Aiel are also going to have to figure out what the place of the MC will be in their culture.

 

Along the lines of the double bond, think of the death implications.

 

In a normal AS+Warder bond, if the AS dies, the warder goes into a rage.  If he warder dies, it is a huge wave of emotion for the AS.

 

With the double bond, if Pervera dies, does Androl go into a warder rage while fighting off the wave of emotions?

 

We've actually yet to see what the effect of an Aes Sedai dying would have on the Asha'man who bonded her. There may be the huge wave of emotions, but it's not a certainty. It's all sort of experimental so the effects are hard to predict, particularly for Androl and Pevara who bonded eachother.

[Guest Brian Frame]

Do any of the books ever say what the Asha'man mumble about. I was wondering if Lews talked to all the AM or if the DO was talking to them.

[jedman67]

What was this whole thing about Wise Ones and Ashaman "disappearing"? i don't remember any scene or chapter even mentioning anything of the sort, i would appreciate a quote from the relevant sources.

Thanks!

[BFG]

I'm not sure there are any official quotes as such, but the Battles thread has a pretty in depth break down of how many Channelers there should be on each side (particularly amongst the Aiel and Ashaman) and how many were mentioned or could be inferred from the text.  Essentially there should have been many more Channelers present than were.

 

For example http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/78491-battles-full-spoilers/?p=2808449 Entreri has worked out that there should be at least 2000 Wise Ones, but when Avi takes on Graendal they can only form 2 circles (from memory, don't have books to hand)

[Suttree]

What was this whole thing about Wise Ones and Ashaman "disappearing"? i don't remember any scene or chapter even mentioning anything of the sort, i would appreciate a quote from the relevant sources.

Thanks!

For whatever reason there were a number of mistakes with the channele numbers. This fundamentally changed the nature of the last battle. Here was one posters take from the battle thread. 

 

 

 

The first time around this bugged me, but I brushed it off believing I must have misread or lost track of a mention of where they were or something, as between Maria and the betas, Brandon could not possibly have done such a mistake.

 

But on my reread I've reached the point where Aviendha is briefly captured by red veils and she asks for circles, gets two small ones, that had to include AS sworn to Rand and two WO - and Sorilea speaks of going to find a few more and then asking off-duty Windfinders to join manage to get a third circle. Huh, what? It's all the WO channelers Aviendha had?

 

Brandon really made a huge error. The Shaido clan alone had over 400 WO who could channel at Malden - about 200 hundred of them got captured by the Seanchan.

It's a big clan, but still... with eleven clans involved in the LB the total number of WO who can channel has to be above 2500 and it's probably conservative. Brandon gave Aviendha a pathetic skeleton crew of WO at Shayol Ghul. Elayne has but a handful (the six with Perrin plus a few extras.. and they're forgotten in nearly all Elayne's tallies of her channelers in the book), Egwene has none, Lan has none, a few like Melaine went to lend their strength to Yellows in Mayene. Where the heck have the thousands of WO channelers gone? Brandon just went and deprived the Light of its biggest group of female channelers. There's no helping that now, but that's a really big error. None of the battles Brandon designed would have gone as they do with these extra 2000-3000 or more female channelers... that could easily double the number of women with Egwene, and added 500 for both Lan and Elayne and still leave 1000 with Aviendha! And if they were all with Aviendha, the battle at Shayol Ghul, the scale of it, the tactics etc. would have been nothing like it is in the book.

 

This doesn't even touch on the missing Ash'aman

[jedman67]

They suffered a Spontaneously Massive Total Existence Failure

[jedman67]

 

What was this whole thing about Wise Ones and Ashaman "disappearing"? i don't remember any scene or chapter even mentioning anything of the sort, i would appreciate a quote from the relevant sources.

Thanks!

For whatever reason there were a number of mistakes with the channele numbers. This fundamentally changed the nature of the last battle. Here was one posters take from the battle thread. 

 

 

 

The first time around this bugged me, but I brushed it off believing I must have misread or lost track of a mention of where they were or something, as between Maria and the betas, Brandon could not possibly have done such a mistake.

 

But on my reread I've reached the point where Aviendha is briefly captured by red veils and she asks for circles, gets two small ones, that had to include AS sworn to Rand and two WO - and Sorilea speaks of going to find a few more and then asking off-duty Windfinders to join manage to get a third circle. Huh, what? It's all the WO channelers Aviendha had?

 

Brandon really made a huge error. The Shaido clan alone had over 400 WO who could channel at Malden - about 200 hundred of them got captured by the Seanchan.

It's a big clan, but still... with eleven clans involved in the LB the total number of WO who can channel has to be above 2500 and it's probably conservative. Brandon gave Aviendha a pathetic skeleton crew of WO at Shayol Ghul. Elayne has but a handful (the six with Perrin plus a few extras.. and they're forgotten in nearly all Elayne's tallies of her channelers in the book), Egwene has none, Lan has none, a few like Melaine went to lend their strength to Yellows in Mayene. Where the heck have the thousands of WO channelers gone? Brandon just went and deprived the Light of its biggest group of female channelers. There's no helping that now, but that's a really big error. None of the battles Brandon designed would have gone as they do with these extra 2000-3000 or more female channelers... that could easily double the number of women with Egwene, and added 500 for both Lan and Elayne and still leave 1000 with Aviendha! And if they were all with Aviendha, the battle at Shayol Ghul, the scale of it, the tactics etc. would have been nothing like it is in the book.

 

This doesn't even touch on the missing Ash'aman

 

We don't actually see them at all except for the group that went with sorilea and perrin to rescue rand at the battle of dumai's wells. We only see handfuls of WO, let alone channelers, at all throughout the entire series. In fact, the number of Aiel Spearmen at all anywhere during the last battle is badly underrepresented. The only real idea of numbers comes from the Battle at Carhain when the clans engage the shaido, they're scattered throughout the world by the end.

In other words, we should have about another 100,000 Aiel warriors fighting in the last battle that are not seen, heard or otherwise mentioned.

[Cybertrolloc]

Aiel and other numbers are given many times throughout the series, where are you having problems? (Remember the last half of the series takes place over half a year while the previous books cover almost 3.)

[bustycops1987]

 

Androl was just padding good padding but still not needed, Logain did not need Androl to exist and only BS made a need to have Androl in the books, got to pad of the books to waste readers cash  

 

Please see what the mod posted in his Op of this thread.

 

 

 

 

As for the Black Tower, I believe that I would have preferred for the events inside the Black Tower to have been included in either TGS, or TOM. 

 

Another small gripe which I have about the Black Tower is that even when RJ was still writing the books, we did not get many scenes actually inside the Black Tower causing me to care very much, one way or the other, about the asha'man who were living and training there. The vast majority of scenes involving asha'man were outside of the Black Tower and were with those whom were helping either Perrin or Rand. 

 

In AMOL, I did like the scenes in the Black Tower, and it was great that I finally got to see how a 13 x 13 turning of a channeller was done. I thought it was very cool that Logain was strong enough to never be turned, despite everything that was done to him.

 

The fight scenes inside the Black Tower was interesting, and I loved the unique use of gateways which caused Taim's people to kill each other with the One Power. 

 

 

I was uncertain about what the future of the Black Tower. But then, I was glad that Logain managed to resist temptation and work with his men to save the children. 

When Logain told the parents, "The Black Tower protects," and the people there responded favorably without fear towards the group of Asha'man, then I knew that RJ intended for the Black Tower to become and remain a popular force for the Light in the future on into the Fourth Age.

 

I'm actually curious to know how much of the Black Tower arc was actually Robert Jordan.

 

Since before he died there was only going to be the one last book, not three, and the Black Tower arc only being brought up and resolved by the third book of the split... it just doesn't seem like the pagecount would have allowed for a proper conclusion to that. I have the sneaking suspicion that RJ in fact left only a smattering of notes about the Black Tower, which is why Sanderson didn't touch it right away and why when he ultimately did he more or less used brand new characters and plotlines to resolve it.

 

Overall I liked the way it was handled but I definitely feel like TGS would have been the proper place to really jump into the Androl-scheming and rescue stuff, since lumping it all into the last book made it feel a bit rushed. But like I said before I have a feeling RJ just hadn't fleshed it out which is why even when he was writing the series, towards the end we had basically no Black Tower povs.